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[soundscream]

Georgie's brother on Piers Morgan getting grilled (from yesterday). God he's such a liar. Just repeating the same bullshit his brother was spouting.

And that Toure-Piers on-air battle left me a little uncomfortable....

Ordinarily, I wouldn't watch this show. Can't stand the guy.

edit:

PIERS: Who is screaming there?
ROBERT: That's my brother.

[...]
*Piers goes on to say that the family contends that it's Trayvon's voice*

ROBERT: Hopefully there are technological means to sort that out.

LOL

And now that 2 experts using two different methods confirm it was Trayvon screaming for help.

Robert Zimmerman: We don't believe the technology exist to positively identify who was screaming.

 

[MightyHealthy]

Georgie's brother on Piers Morgan getting grilled (from yesterday). God he's such a liar. Just repeating the same bullshit his brother was spouting.

And that Toure-Piers on-air battle left me a little uncomfortable....

Ordinarily, I wouldn't watch this show. Can't stand the guy.

edit:

PIERS: Who is screaming there?
ROBERT: That's my brother.

[...]
*Piers goes on to say that the family contends that it's Trayvon's voice*

ROBERT: Hopefully there are technological means to sort that out.

LOL

This motherfucker actually said "George showed tremendous restraint." (about 18 seconds in)

REALLY?

He must mean "tremendous restraint for a hothead wannabe cop turned vigilante turned child killer."

and of course the struggle for the gun is the "new added detail for emphasis." Like Trayvon was digging down dude's pants, or saw George's gun and his eyes lit up at the opportunity to kill. More "dialogue" from "Trayvon" too: "you have a piece, you're gonna die tonight"

Gotta love the bit about how he was so scared of "wearing diapers for the rest of his life." Like he wasn't babied throughout the initial investigation.

And somebody getting their head slammed while yelling for help would sound a hell of a lot different than what we hear on the 911 calls...

George Zimmerman's whole family is either duped by him, or complicit in trying to deliver his fabrications. Probably the latter.

 

[trollcity]

what i don't understand.... is what reason has zimmerman given for being outside his house with a gun following someone?

or have i missed it in the thread?

like how did the "altercation" apparently start?

 

[GaimeGuy]

you have got to be fucking kidding me. There's a gun owners self-defense legal organization?

What makes gun-related self-defense so special that an organization is made specifically for legal expenses for the defense of people who use guns in a justifiable homicice? Are people who act in self defense with knives or baseball bats or non-firearms not worthy of defense?


I don't understand it.

 

[LunarMX]

Has some posted this yet?

Funeral director says Trayvon's body showed no signs of brawl

A Miami funeral director says Trayvon Martin’s body showed no signs of a violent brawl.

Richard Kurtz said his examination of the slain Florida teen’s corpse revealed no cuts, scratches or bruises, only a gunshot wound to the chest.

Kurtz’s account appears to contradict George Zimmerman’s claims that he shot Trayvon during a life-and-death struggle.

“We could see no physical signs like there had been a scuffle [or] there had been a fight,” Kurtz told CBS News.

“The hands — I didn’t see any knuckles, bruises or what have you, and that is something we would have covered up if it would have been there.”

Trayvon “looked perfectly normal to me when he came in and the story just does not make sense that he was in this type of scuffle or fight in anything that we could see,” Kurtz added.

All the witnesses accounts compiled with the video surveillance and expert testimony seem to point out that Trayvon didn't or couldn't fight back much less be the aggressor.

 

[Kyuuketsu_Night]

Zimmerman defense force can just stop now.

The plethora of new findings and evidence is just.. it's just there and we all know what happened now. The guy is a piece of crap human being.. they kind of exist.

 

[elrechazado]

Was watching an interview on CNN with Florida lead prosecutor Angela Corey and she said:



It was on Anderson Cooper and here's a transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/26/acd.01.html Another video of an interview with her: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/exp-point-corey-trayvon-two.cnn

The fact that they have such a big burden worries me that they won't be able to accomplish that, but all the evidence coming out piece by piece every day or every other day gives me hope.

That's the burden every prosecutor has in every case ever, this isn't new.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Just a matter of time now...all going according to keikaku

 

[shanshan310]

Just a matter of time now...all going according to keikaku

... until he gets 5 years for "manslaughter", if that. I have completely lost faith in the justice system. Its so broken when your guilt is determined by who you are and how much your father makes. I would so love to see this man go away forever, but I ain't gonna get my hopes up. I just can't see that happening.

 

[elrechazado]

... until he gets 5 years for "manslaughter", if that. I have completely lost faith in the justice system. Its so broken when your guilt is determined by who you are and how much your father makes.

Well, I feel bad for the prosecutor, because 1. you never know what a jury will do, and 2. perception of a case's strength and its actual legal strength are usually not the same.

So imagine the prosecutor has legitimate concerns about presenting the case to a jury, and best practice would be to plea bargain a case to secure a conviction. Public outcry (by people who don't understand or care about the risks) potentially causes the prosecutor to go all in (not saying she shouldn't, mind you), and after a trial, the guy ends up acquitted, and the public flips out even more.

I'd seriously temper my expectations for any specific outcome.

 

[The Incarnation]

Zimmerman defense force can just stop now.

The plethora of new findings and evidence is just.. it's just there and we all know what happened now. The guy is a piece of crap human being.. they kind of exist.

The most annoying thing is Trayvon Martin could of been the next man, or woman for that matter and Zimmerman would still be in the same position he is now because of his Dad.

Personally that's the biggest issue for me, in a nutshell the abuse of position and power.

 

[Chumly]

Just in case this got buried, I'm putting it up again.

I had chills down my spine when I heard that audio. Since the media frenzy began, we've constantly heard quotes from Zimmerman and his relatives that this was self-defense. Hearing the audio is mind blowing.

I'm putting this in bold because I haven't seen this thoroughly clarified in the past 15 pages:

1. Assume for a moment that we don't have conclusive evidence as to whom the person yelling for help is, now let's go through the concrete facts.

2. The gunshot and subsequent halt to the yelling happens at 41 seconds into the 911 call, so the yelling and heavily lopsided balance of power in the fight, at a very minimum lasted for 41 seconds. Those 41 seconds of yelling for help come from a single voice, which indicates that one person in particular was under constant duress for at least 41 seconds. The presence of only voice in duress indicates a clear division in this fight: one person in a dominant, controlling position, and the other person under extreme duress.

3. There is a one second gap between the last call for help and the gunshot. This means the person calling for help had to have been the victim of the gunshot, because the cries for help stopped after the gunshot.

4. The chances of the person in duress being able to (1) break free from his duress (2) compose himself for a chance to fire the weapon, and (3) fire the weapon, in a split second, is impossible. This means the victim of the gunshot (Trayvon Martin), was undoubtedly in a state of constant and unremitting duress before he was killed. This goes against every notion of Martin being the instigator of the altercation and the dominant component.

5. Whoever fired that gun, was the person who instigated the fight, remained the dominant component, and ended the incident with a gunshot.

Thoughts?

I think the most likely thing that happened during the struggle is that Zimmerman tried to do a "citizens arrest" which caused Martin to fight for his life yelling for help with in the end Zimmerman shooting him.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Posted on my cousins facebook wall. There was a lot more as well. FML. I hate putting up with my relatives bullshit.

Why do you then? I have no problem ignoring people like that, especially if it's only a cousin and not even immediate family.

And how is saying thug life racist? :lol at his post.

 

[ElFly]

Was watching an interview on CNN with Florida lead prosecutor Angela Corey and she said:



It was on Anderson Cooper and here's a transcript: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/26/acd.01.html Another video of an interview with her: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/03/27/exp-point-corey-trayvon-two.cnn

The fact that they have such a big burden worries me that they won't be able to accomplish that, but all the evidence coming out piece by piece every day or every other day gives me hope.

Do they really have such a high burden?

All they have to do it's prove that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense.

It's not like there's any doubt that he killed the boy.

 

[elrechazado]

Do they really have such a high burden?

All they have to do it's prove that Zimmerman was not acting in self defense.

It's not like there's any doubt that he killed the boy.

They have to prove each and every element of the eventual crime/s they charge him with beyond a reasonable doubt. This is the highest burden in the legal system. There are plenty of cases where there's a dead person and nobody disputes who did it. The question is proving the requisite mens rea to the jury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

 

[Kinyou]

Zimmerman defense force can just stop now.

The plethora of new findings and evidence is just.. it's just there and we all know what happened now. The guy is a piece of crap human being.. they kind of exist.

I'd just wish that there was some 1080p cam video that clearly shows Zimmerman unjustly killing Martin. I don't think anything else will convince those hardliners.

 

[Onemic]

I'd just wish that there was some 1080p cam video that clearly shows Zimmerman unjustly killing Martin. I don't think anything else will convince those hardliners.

They'd still find some way to justify it.

 

[elrechazado]

I'd just wish that there was some 1080p cam video that clearly shows Zimmerman unjustly killing Martin. I don't think anything else will convince those hardliners.

Rodney King deserved it!!

Although that was like 120p

 

[Murkas]

I really don't get the hoodie argument when at the time it was raining...

 

[Unknown One]

They'd still find some way to justify it.

One thug off the street. That's how they will justify it. I been reading comments like that all day. Painting Trayvon as a villain worked.....

 

[Chumly]

Why do you then? I have no problem ignoring people like that, especially if it's only a cousin and not even immediate family.

And how is saying thug life racist? :lol at his post.

Where the hell did I say that? Sorry if I didn't dumb it down enough for you but I didn't make the assumption that they are closet racists based off that single post.

 

[adamsappel]

Unfortunately, for juries it seems "beyond a reasonable" actually means "beyond a shadow of a" doubt. Also, why doesn't CSI just enhance that video/audio?

 

[demigod]

what i don't understand.... is what reason has zimmerman given for being outside his house with a gun following someone?

or have i missed it in the thread?

like how did the "altercation" apparently start?

He needed his gun going to the grocery store.

 

[empty vessel]

Unfortunately, for juries it seems "beyond a reasonable" actually means "beyond a shadow of a" doubt. Also, why doesn't CSI just enhance that video/audio?

I think juries typically apply too low a burden rather than too high of one. And prosecutors usually overestimate the strength of their evidence at this stage rather than underestimate it. In that sense, the prosecutor's hand-wringing is unusual. (This may be an example of how bias against black victims enters the system--prosecutors viewing their own evidence more skeptically than they otherwise would.) That said, if the State has the burden to prove that Zimmerman's use of force was not justified under Florida law beyond a reasonable doubt (and I never found the answer to that question), that will not be terribly easy in light of the lack of (known) witnesses to the altercation's start.

Still, the prosecution is jumping the gun by worrying about its trial burden right now. The question is not whether the prosecution can prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. It is whether there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed and that Zimmerman committed it. If so, then an indictment should issue. If the prosecution subsequently concludes it does not have enough evidence to meet its trial burden, it can move to dismiss those charges. The likely problem is that it is easier, politically, for a prosecutor not to charge than to dismiss charges. So if the prosecution concludes it can't make its case, it may not try very hard to persuade the grand jury to indict. We already know that the State attorney himself declined to charge, so I think that gives an indication of what kind of effort we can expect to see from the prosecution before the grand jury. I would not be surprised if the grand jury does not indict.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Where the hell did I say that? Sorry if I didn't dumb it down enough for you but I didn't make the assumption that they are closet racists based off that single post.

What are you talking about?

 

[MIMIC]

I think the most likely thing that happened during the struggle is that Zimmerman tried to do a "citizens arrest" which caused Martin to fight for his life yelling for help with in the end Zimmerman shooting him.

Yes. Zimmerman's original argument is just falling apart and something more simple and realistic probably happened:

Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon, despite the request not to. Zimmerman (in all of his fake-cop glory) approached Trayvon, convinced that he was up to no good, and attempted to either question Trayvon or detain him.

Trayvon resisted/refused to cooperate, which lead Zimmerman to take things into his own hands.....and the struggle ensued.

Trayvon cried for help. Still in fake-cop mode, Zimmerman considered this as a "suspect resisting arrest". So in order to "subdue the suspect", Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot him.

 

[JCreasy]

I think juries typically apply too low a burden rather than too high of one. And prosecutors usually overestimate the strength of their evidence at this stage rather than underestimate it. In that sense, the prosecutor's hand-wringing is unusual. (This may be an example of how bias against black victims enters the system--prosecutors viewing their own evidence more skeptically than they otherwise would.) That said, if the State has the burden to prove that Zimmerman's use of force was not justified under Florida law beyond a reasonable doubt (and I never found the answer to that question), that will not be terribly easy in light of the lack of (known) witnesses to the altercation's start.

Still, the prosecution is jumping the gun by worrying about its trial burden right now. The question is not whether the prosecution can prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. It is whether there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed and that Zimmerman committed it. If so, then an indictment should issue. If the prosecution subsequently concludes it does not have enough evidence to meet its trial burden, it can move to dismiss those charges. The likely problem is that it is easier, politically, for a prosecutor not to charge than to dismiss charges. So if the prosecution concludes it can't make its case, it may not try very hard to persuade the grand jury to indict. We already know that the State attorney himself declined to charge, so I think that gives an indication of what kind of effort we can expect to see from the prosecution before the grand jury. I would not be surprised if the grand jury does not indict.

All of the evidence that has subsequently been released in the press is pretty strong imho.

It feels like Wolfinger didn't even want to try. The only evidence it seems they had at the time of the shooting for self defense was Zimmerman's statement.


Also, Charles Blow at NY Times tweeted a good point:

I come back to this: what color was #Trayvon's hoodie? Z says dark grey on call. 911 caller say guy on top wear white t-shirt... ...shirt under Zimmerman's red jacket is light/white. Something abt this keeps nagging me. #Trayvon

 

[Blackace]

Yes. Zimmerman's original argument is just falling apart and something more simple and realistic probably happened:

Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon, despite the request not to. Zimmerman (in all of his fake-cop glory) approached Trayvon, convinced that he was up to no good, and attempted to either question Trayvon or detain him.

Trayvon resisted/refused to cooperate, which lead Zimmerman to take things into his own hands.....and the struggle ensued.

Trayvon cried for help. Still in fake-cop mode, Zimmerman considered this as a "suspect resisting arrest". So in order to "subdue the suspect", Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot him.

The more I hear, I am not convinced that there was a struggle..

 

[Chumly]

Yes. Zimmerman's original argument is just falling apart and something more simple and realistic probably happened:

Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon, despite the request not to. Zimmerman (in all of his fake-cop glory) approached Trayvon, convinced that he was up to no good, and attempted to either question Trayvon or detain him.

Trayvon resisted/refused to cooperate, which lead Zimmerman to take things into his own hands.....and the struggle ensued.

Trayvon cried for help. Still in fake-cop mode, Zimmerman considered this as a "suspect resisting arrest". So in order to "subdue the suspect", Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot him.

Yep. With what has come out it seems like the only logical argument is Zimmerman causing a struggle with Martin fighting for his life.

Also I don't think it was a "stuggle" as much as we might think it was.

 

[kittens]

This is pretty rad: MHP's guide for how white people can talk about Trayvon Martin. Her humor is kinda corny, but her analysis is spot on.

 

[BruiserBear]

The more I hear, I am not convinced that there was a struggle..

This thread is maddening to read. I literally need to stay away, because I don't want to waste my time correcting people.

Have you listened to all the 911 calls? Because I have, and several people talk of SEEING two guys scuffling on the ground. One even mentions one guy on top of another, and the guy on top had a "white shirt".

Trayvon was wearing a gray hoodie. Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

Trayvon was shot in the front chest (from what we know right now), but was found face down.

The first officer on the scene noted the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it.

If people are going to speculate on theories, that's fine, but at least make sure your theory fits with the things we already know.

 

[Death Dealer]

Still, the prosecution is jumping the gun by worrying about its trial burden right now. The question is not whether the prosecution can prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. It is whether there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed and that Zimmerman committed it. If so, then an indictment should issue. If the prosecution subsequently concludes it does not have enough evidence to meet its trial burden, it can move to dismiss those charges. The likely problem is that it is easier, politically, for a prosecutor not to charge than to dismiss charges.

I've read prosecutors like to keep their "batting average" as high as possible. So unless they're pretty sure they can get a conviction, they won't do it.

 

[soundscream]

This thread is maddening to read. I literally need to stay away, because I don't want to waste my time correcting people.

Have you listened to all the 911 calls? Because I have, and several people talk of SEEING a two guys scuffling on the ground. One even mentions one guy on top of another, and the guy on top had a "white shirt".

Trayvon was wearing a gray hoodie. Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

Trayvon was shot in the front chest (from what we know right now), but was found face down.

The first officer on the scene noted the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it.

If people are going to come up with theories, at least make sure your theory fits with the things we already know.

Oh shit its the thread police!

 

[endresults]

Has some posted this yet?

Funeral director says Trayvon's body showed no signs of brawl

No shit he showed no signs of a brawl. He was the one doing the beating.

 

[Devolution]

Oh shit its the thread police!

The self-appointed thread watch is back. Quick drop your skittles and run.

 

[mre]

This is pretty rad: MHP's guide for how white people can talk about Trayvon Martin. Her humor is kinda corny, but her analysis is spot on.

So stupid. "Don't mention that you have black friends, or relatives," yet she uses the fact that her mom is white as part of her "credentials" for providing us with this guide.

"Don't forget that you're white . . . it's not your fault that you were born that way!" Really insulting and not funny at all.

 

[Chumly]

This thread is maddening to read. I literally need to stay away, because I don't want to waste my time correcting people.

Have you listened to all the 911 calls? Because I have, and several people talk of SEEING two guys scuffling on the ground. One even mentions one guy on top of another, and the guy on top had a "white shirt".

Trayvon was wearing a gray hoodie. Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

Trayvon was shot in the front chest (from what we know right now), but was found face down.

The first officer on the scene noted the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it.

If people are going to speculate on theories, that's fine, but at least make sure your theory fits with the things we already know.

Well we know that Zimmerman and Martin didn't have any injuries from the video and the funeral guy so most likely there was a short scuffle with Zimmerman trying to detain him. Martin Screamed for his life and Zimmerman shot him due to the struggle.

 

[soundscream]

No shit he showed no signs of a brawl. He was the one doing the beating.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

This thread is maddening to read. I literally need to stay away, because I don't want to waste my time correcting people.

Have you listened to all the 911 calls? Because I have, and several people talk of SEEING two guys scuffling on the ground. One even mentions one guy on top of another, and the guy on top had a "white shirt".

Trayvon was wearing a gray hoodie. Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

Trayvon was shot in the front chest (from what we know right now), but was found face down.

The first officer on the scene noted the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it.

If people are going to speculate on theories, that's fine, but at least make sure your theory fits with the things we already know.

It's maddening that people don't believe Zimmerman and have their own theories of what happened? Ok. I would think it would be maddening that a 17 year old kid gets murked by an overzealous police academy reject and the Sanford Polices seemingly indifference to it, but whatever.

 

[Blackace]

This thread is maddening to read. I literally need to stay away, because I don't want to waste my time correcting people.

Have you listened to all the 911 calls? Because I have, and several people talk of SEEING a two guys scuffling on the ground. One even mentions one guy on top of another, and the guy on top had a "white shirt".

Trayvon was wearing a gray hoodie. Zimmerman was wearing a red jacket.

Trayvon was shot in the front chest (from what we know right now), but was found face down.

The first officer on the scene noted the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had grass on it.

If people are going to come up with theories, at least make sure your theory fits with the things we already know.

Yeah I have listened to the 911 calls, especially the one where the kid begs fo his life. Having a wet jacket can be gotten by sitting on the ground after he just realized he just murdered a kid for no reason..

Also Zimmerman could have been atop of him trying to see if the kid was dying..

Really from the GF's call to the kid begging, to his non-injuries, and his racial slurs, and prior run ins with the law... To the funeral home saying that the kid showed no signs of a fight it their prep of him..

Doesn't add up to a real long epic struggle..

 

[Loudninja]

No shit he showed no signs of a brawl. He was the one doing the beating.

What?

Really what else is there to defend?

 

[soundscream]

The self-appointed thread watch is back. Quick drop your skittles and run.

I dont think he would chase down a woman with child

 

[Big Baybee]

No shit he showed no signs of a brawl. He was the one doing the beating.

Drive by post.

 

[Cloudy]

I love how people are implying that a struggle somehow exonerates Zimmerman. Does self-defense only apply to the pursuer carrying a gun? Does the unarmed victim not have this right as well?

 

[Big Baybee]

I love how people are implying that a struggle somehow exonerates Zimmerman. Does self-defense only apply to the pursuer carrying a gun? Does the unarmed victim not have this right as well?

Obviously Trayvon should have just turned himself over to the custody this random dude. Surprised Zimmerman didn't cuff the dudes corpse.

 

[BruiserBear]

It's maddening that people don't believe Zimmerman and have their own theories of what happened? Ok. I would think it would be maddening that a 17 year old kid gets murked by an overzealous police academy reject and the Sanford Polices seemingly indifference to it, but whatever.

Don't believe Zimmerman? What the hell do the facts I presented there have to do with believing Zimmerman? Are we not to believe the 911 calls where people reported seeing a two guys scuffling on the ground outside their window? Did Zimmerman make that phone call?

And your attempt at painting me as indifferent to the crime is pathetic. When you attack the messenger rather than the message, you've got to rethink your position.

Yeah I have listened to the 911 calls, especially the one where the kid begs fo his life. Having a wet jacket can be gotten by sitting on the ground after he just realized he just murdered a kid for no reason..

Also Zimmerman could have been atop of him trying to see if the kid was dying..

Really from the GF's call to the kid begging, to his non-injuries, and his racial slurs, and prior run ins with the law... To the funeral home saying that the kid showed no signs of a fight it their prep of him..

Doesn't add up to a real long epic struggle..

So what about the 911 call where someone says the "guy on top is wearing a white shirt"?

And it's fine if you say it wasn't a long epic struggle, but just moments ago you said no struggle. That's why I said what I did.

I've said it many times in this thread already, because for some bizarre reason if you attempt to correct incorrect statements you're labeled a Zimmerman defender, I think the guy committed a terrible crime, and should go to jail for what he did. But facts are facts, and people should try and stick to them as best they can.

I love how people are implying that a struggle somehow exonerates Zimmerman. Does self-defense only apply to the pursuer carrying a gun? Does the unarmed victim not have this right as well?

Who are these people?

 

[adamsappel]

No shit he showed no signs of a brawl. He was the one doing the beating.

“The hands — I didn’t see any knuckles, bruises or what have you, and that is something we would have covered up if it would have been there.”

If Zimmerman's story about being jumped and beaten is true, there should be marks/bruising/swelling on Martin's hands. There were none. At this late date, there is no way to check Zimmerman for such marks.

 

[soundscream]

He was screaming for people to help him fight Zimmerman, since he didnt do that great a job since he looked quite alright in that police video. The way it was described you were expecting this

 

[Big Baybee]

Don't believe Zimmerman? What the hell do the facts I presented there have to do with believing Zimmerman? Are we not to believe the 911 calls where people reported seeing a two guys scuffling on the ground outside their window? Did Zimmerman make that phone call?

And your attempt at painting me as indifferent to the crime is pathetic. When you attack the messenger rather than the message, you've got to rethink your position.



So what about the 911 call where someone says the "guy on top is wearing a white shirt"?

And it's fine if you say it wasn't a long epic struggle, but just moments ago you said no struggle.

I've said in many times in this thread already, because for some bizarre reason if you attempt to correct incorrect statements you're labeled a Zimmerman defender, I think the guy committed a terrible crime, and should go to jail for what he did.

Zimmerman had on a grey shirt when he went to the PD. With no blood on it....

 

[empty vessel]

If Zimmerman's story about being jumped and beaten is true, there should be marks/bruising/swelling on Martin's hands. There were none. At this late date, there is no way to check Zimmerman for such marks.

Marks, possibly, not bruising or swelling, because that does not happen postmortem. Bruises and swelling require blood circulation.