Family of Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch seeks arrest

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Zimmerman had on a grey shirt when he went to the PD. With no blood on it....

True, and I don't feel certain it was Treyvon on top of Zimmerman. Either way seems possible at this point.

But, the first officer on the scene did report Zimmerman was wearing his jacket when he arrived, and the back was wet with grass on it. So it would seem the coat didn't come off during the confrontation.
 
I think the most likely thing that happened during the struggle is that Zimmerman tried to do a "citizens arrest" which caused Martin to fight for his life yelling for help with in the end Zimmerman shooting him.

Actually I think screaming coincides with gun being drawn. Think about crazy dudes tries to restrain you and you struggle. Then you see he has a gun on him. If it was me I would call for someone to help me while trying to secure the weapon. Which is what likely (IMO) happened. That last scream being when Zimmerman has control of the gun and is about to fire.
 
True, and I don't feel certain it was Treyvon on top of Zimmerman. Either way seems possible at this point.

But, the first officer on the scene did report Zimmerman was wearing his jacket when he arrived, and the back was wet with grass on it. So it would seem the coat didn't come off during the confrontation.

Or he took it off and threw it on the ground before the fight trying to be a bad ass. I think him having not blood on his clothing may be the most incriminating thing about this situation. If he shot Trayvon at point blank range, there would be some splatter, right?
 
Or he took it off and threw it on the ground before the fight trying to be a bad ass. I think him having not blood on his clothing may be the most incriminating thing about this situation. If he shot Trayvon at point blank range, there would be some splatter, right?

I don't know. Others have suggested that small bullets don't necessarily create much of a wound or splatter.
 
So stupid. "Don't mention that you have black friends, or relatives," yet she uses the fact that her mom is white as part of her "credentials" for providing us with this guide.

I know right!!! How did she NOT see the irony !!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: !!!!!!


"Don't forget that you're white . . . it's not your fault that you were born that way!" Really insulting and not funny at all.

Why, because she reminded you that you're white?
 
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So what about the 911 call where someone says the "guy on top is wearing a white shirt"?

And it's fine if you say it wasn't a long epic struggle, but just moments ago you said no struggle. That's why I said what I did.

I've said in many times in this thread already, because for some bizarre reason if you attempt to correct incorrect statements you're labeled a Zimmerman defender, I think the guy committed a terrible crime, and should go to jail for what he did. But facts are facts, and people should try and stick to them as best they can.

The kid was wearing a dark shirt not a white one..

That is a fact..

Zimmerman, his family and the police have destroyed the facts. So you CANNOT tell me that something is a concrete fact when there aren't too many...
 
I don't know. Others have suggested that small bullets don't necessarily create much of a wound or splatter.

At a distance. This should've been point blank. There should be residue on Zimmerman's shirt. Gunpowder burns on Trayvons. The splatter should be there and blood from the wound if Trayvon was on top of him.
 
The kid was wearing a dark shirt not a white one..

That is a fact..

Zimmerman, his family and the police have destroyed the facts. So you CANNOT tell me that something is a concrete fact when there aren't too many...

I was under the impression Trayvon was wearing a lighter gray hoodie. If you were looking out your window at night, with low light conditions, a gray hoodie is more likely to look "white" than a red jacket.

While some facts are messy, some are not, and the people on the 911 calls saying they saw two people engaged in a struggle on the ground, with the one on top of the other wearing a "white shirt", fall into that category for me.

At this point I'd take that to prove two facts for certain. There was a struggle, and at some point someone was on top of the other, prior to the gun being fired. I don't feel certain who was on top of whom, but there are some signs that suggest it might have been Trayvon.
 
Employing over-the-top sarcasm in response to a piss-poor attempt at sarcasm responding to my post sarcastically pointing out that the poster I was responding to missed the sarcasm in the video?

Yeah, you really pulled that off...

I was under the impression Trayvon was wearing a lighter gray hoodie. If you were looking out your window at night, with low light conditions, a gray hoodie is more likely to look "white" than a red jacket.

While some facts are messy, some are not, and the people on the 911 calls saying they saw two people engaged in a struggle on the ground, with the one on top of the other wearing a "white shirt".

At this point I'd take that to prove two facts for certain. There was a struggle, and at some point someone was on top of the other, prior to the gun being fired. I don't feel certain who was on top of whom, but there are some signs that suggest it might have been Trayvon.

Whether trayvon beat the living shit out of zimmerman or whether zimmerman did the same to him or whether neither of them did any damage to the other should really be legally irrelevant. What is relevant is who attacked whom in the first place, and those facts' relationship to when and why zimmerman killed this kid.

If zimm started the fight, even if he got the hell beat out of him, it doesn't matter who witnesses saw on the top or the bottom.
 
I was under the impression Trayvon was wearing a lighter gray hoodie. If you were looking out your window at night, with low light conditions, a gray hoodie is more likely to look "white" than a red jacket.

While some facts are messy, some are not, and the people on the 911 calls saying they saw two people engaged in a struggle on the ground, with the one on top of the other wearing a "white shirt".

At this point I'd take that to prove two facts for certain. There was a struggle, and at some point someone was on top of the other, prior to the gun being fired. I don't feel certain who was on top of whom, but there are some signs that suggest it might have been Trayvon.

Trayvon had no signs of a struggle...
 
What the fuck? I've never dated a black girl.

Your post wasn't sarcastic... it was condescending. There is a difference.

Those are two different words, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are mutually exclusive. All else aside, the clear pattern that has emerged from our limited interactions is that you have a difficult time detecting sarcasm--whether from a poster on a message board, or a TV host on MSNBC.

I'd ask you (seriously this time) why you were offended, but, in light of the fact that no one here actually cares anyway, I'll drop the issue to avoid further derailing.
 
Those are two different words, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are mutually exclusive. All else aside, the clear pattern that has emerged from our limited interactions is that you have a difficult time detecting sarcasm--whether from a poster on a message board, or a TV host on MSNBC.

I'd ask you (seriously this time) why you were offended, but, in light of the fact that no one here actually cares anyway, I'll drop the issue to avoid further derailing.

Being a dick isn't constructive either on the internet or in real life, so good luck with that.
 
I was under the impression Trayvon was wearing a lighter gray hoodie. If you were looking out your window at night, with low light conditions, a gray hoodie is more likely to look "white" than a red jacket.

While some facts are messy, some are not, and the people on the 911 calls saying they saw two people engaged in a struggle on the ground, with the one on top of the other wearing a "white shirt", fall into that category for me.

At this point I'd take that to prove two facts for certain. There was a struggle, and at some point someone was on top of the other, prior to the gun being fired. I don't feel certain who was on top of whom, but there are some signs that suggest it might have been Trayvon.

If there was a guy on top wearing a hoodie, the hoodie would obscure the face and ethnicity of the person on top, maybe. You would describe that garment as a hoodie, for sure. Now if the garment was a hoodie and the hoodie was down, you would describe the assailant, even from a distance, as black. That didn't happen. Neither of those descriptions happened.

I don't know what shade of gray his hoodie was, but the hood alone presents and easy descriptor for witnesses and is not present in those descriptions, at least as they relate to 'white shirt on top' guy.
 
No amount of evidence contradicting Zimmerman's different account of events is going to be enough for...certain people in this thread.

Zimmerman said there was a struggle. A struggle that necessitated him pulling his firearm and killing another human being.

The evidence, from both the police cctv video, and the lack of cuts/scrapes on Trayvon Martin's hands and body according the funeral director that PREPARED HIS BODY for burial, contradict this.

Zimmerman said that he was screaming for his life because he was being punched in the face and having his head slammed into the ground repeatedly.

Two different sound experts, both using different methods, have determined, after examining and analyzing the audio from the 911 call, that it was Trayvon Martin screaming for his life.

Those are two incredibly large pieces of Zimmerman's story that have been proven to be false. All of the little details like Zimmerman calling him a "fucking >?<" are pretty irrelevant.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that this man with a history of paranoia and aggression unnecessarily profiled, followed, confronted, and shot and killed a 17 year old boy walking down the street?

This isn't an episode of Law and Order. There will be no 100% concrete evidence, super enhanced photo images, or mind-blowing, last minute confession from the "real" shooter that turns the entire case on it's ear.

This is the real world, and the simplest explanation is often the right one.

In this case, the simplest explanation is backed up by more and more evidence.

Trayvon Martin did NOTHING to warrant being followed, confronted, and shot dead when he tried to get away from a COMPLETE STRANGER.

It really saddens me that the implication evident in some of these posts is that Trayvon should have complied to the whims of a complete stranger demanding to know why he was walking down the street in "Zimmerman's" neighborhood. You're not Batman, George. You aren't the terror that flaps in the night. You're a fucking wannabe neighborhood watch captain who scrubbed out of the police academy.

People also seem to not consider that George was a security guard, and also trying to become a police officer. The level of physical strength required to do both, while not massive, is considerable. At the very least, Zimmerman would have had some type of self defense training (ie, being able to subdue a "perp"). I find it hard to believe that a former security guard carrying a weapon would be in fear for his life of a tall, skinny person in a hoody.

If Trayvon was packing a weapon of sort to harm Zimmerman, and if he was as volatile and aggressive as Zimmerman claims he was, Trayvon would have pulled his weapon and used it to threaten Zimmerman. Trayvon not pulling a weapon should have been an indicator to Zimmerman that the kid wasn't packing, and wasn't a threat, being that, you know, Zimmerman was carrying a weapon.

This thread gives me a fucking headache.

But I can't stay away. *sigh*
 
Yeah, you really pulled that off...



Whether trayvon beat the living shit out of zimmerman or whether zimmerman did the same to him or whether neither of them did any damage to the other should really be legally irrelevant. What is relevant is who attacked whom in the first place, and those facts' relationship to when and why zimmerman killed this kid.

If zimm started the fight, even if he got the hell beat out of him, it doesn't matter who witnesses saw on the top or the bottom.

I agree completely. The problem is that some people get so emotional about the story that they end up creating their own reality out of it. Zimmerman is gulity of killing Trayvon regardless of how the fight went down, but I don't think that means we should all just write our own version of how it went down.


Trayvon had no signs of a struggle...

OK. I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said though.

According to a lot of people, Zimmerman didn't have any injuries either. So that means there was no struggle, even though several people saw a struggle with their own eyes?
 
The thing that still confounds me, is that the cops at the scene had ALL the following evidence - Zimmerman followed, addressed and shot an unarmed teen.

Trayvon probably died in terror. I hope at least it happened swiftly.

then after unusual shenanigans at a fairly high level, the prosecutor showed up IN PERSON, they fucking let him go. I hope Zimmerman goes to jail, but I feel like a lot of other heads need to roll here too. It reeks of corruption and gross incompetence.
 
I agree completely. The problem I is that some people get so emotional about the story that they end up creating their own reality out of it. Zimmerman is gulity of killing Trayvon regardless of how the fight went down, but I don't think that means we should all just write our own version of how it went down.




OK. I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said though.

According to a lot of people, Zimmerman didn't have any injuries either. So that means there was no struggle, even though several people saw a struggle with their own eyes?

The implication is that Zimmerman easily overpowered Trayvon and got on top of him and then shot him, possibly from that point of leverage. What is clear is that Trayvon took no blows to the head and according to the funeral director, had no abrasions on his knuckles consistent with striking someone on the face.

To be clear, you break someone's nose in a fist fight, you're going to have marks. You engage in a fist fight, you're going to have marks.

Also, nobody screams in a fist fight. People scream when they are being beaten up. They scream when they are being chased. When they are being held. But nobody screams in a fist fight.

So either Zimmerman was just being manhandled, or he is lying. I haven't heard his full description of the apparent beating he took, screaming.
 
According to a lot of people, Zimmerman didn't have any injuries either. So that means there was no struggle, even though several people saw a struggle with their own eyes?

Lawyers can correct me here, even ones from Bama, but I believe that goes to intent or the situation (whatever the term is). How can Zimmerman feel threatened from someone who didn't have any trauma on his hands or any weapon? If Zimmerman wasn't even getting beat up, the self defense law does not apply.
 
The implication is that Zimmerman easily overpowered Trayvon and got on top of him and then shot him, possibly from that point of leverage. What is clear is that Trayvon took no blows to the head and according to the funeral director, had no abrasions on his knuckles consistent with striking someone on the face.

To be clear, you break someone's nose in a fist fight, you're going to have marks. You engage in a fist fight, you're going to have marks.

Also, nobody screams in a fist fight. People scream when they are being beaten up. They scream when they are being chased. When they are being held. But nobody screams in a fist fight.

So either Zimmerman was just being manhandled, or he is lying. I haven't heard his full description of the apparent beating he took, screaming.

To be perfectly honest I'm not going to take a funeral director's word as the final word on something like that. He's most likely correct, but I'm not going to call it a fact that Trayvon showed no signs of a struggle.

Second, I don't believe people show lots of visible signs after punching someone a few times. I've seen people fight, and their hands were not bloodied after doing so. Depending upon what was happening, and where people were getting hit, things can appear very different. Even people suggesting Zimmerman couldn't have a broken nose because the video of him doesn't show anything, are way off base. You can have a completely broken nose, and in a video of that quality, from the distances the cameras were at, see nothing out of the ordinary.


Lawyers can correct me here, even ones from Bama, but I believe that goes to intent or the situation (whatever the term is). How can Zimmerman feel threatened from someone who didn't have any trauma on his hands or any weapon? If Zimmerman wasn't even getting beat up, the self defense law does not apply.

I have no idea how that applies to the conversation I was engaged in.
 
Lawyers can correct me here, even ones from Bama, but I believe that goes to intent or the situation (whatever the term is). How can Zimmerman feel threatened from someone who didn't have any trauma on his hands or any weapon? If Zimmerman wasn't even getting beat up, the self defense law does not apply.

To some people, seeing a 6'2 black male wearing a hoodie walking on the street at night can be enough for them to "reasonably" fear grievous bodily harm.
 
To be perfectly honest I'm not going to take a funeral director's word as the final word on something like that. He's most likely correct, but I'm not going to call it a fact that Trayvon showed no signs of a struggle.

Second, I don't believe people show lots of visible signs after punching someone a few times. I've seen people fight, and their hands were not bloodied after doing so. Depending upon what was happening, and where people were getting hit, things can appear very different. Even people suggesting Zimmerman couldn't have a broken nose because the video of him doesn't show anything, are way off base. You can have a completely broken nose, and in a video of that quality, from the distances the cameras were at, see nothing out of the ordinary.




I have no idea how that applies to the conversation I was engaged in.

Why can you easily believe a witness that says a person with a white tee was on top during the struggle, but dismiss the funeral directors observations after he worked directly with Trayvon's body?
 
According to a lot of people, Zimmerman didn't have any injuries either. So that means there was no struggle, even though several people saw a struggle with their own eyes?

I think there was a struggle....but as far as an all-out one-sided pummeling, that probably didn't happen. Meaning Trayvon didn't smash Zimmerman's head or whatever lie he told, and Zimmerman didn't punch out Trayvon (unless Zimmerman's knuckles were bruised and Trayvon's face also had cuts and bruises).

A struggle doesn't necessarily mean they were "fighting". They were probably wrestling/tussling (constantly wiggling and writhing trying to gain the upper-hand).....not throwing blows at one another. Maybe Trayvon knew that Zimmerman had a gun and intended to use it....leading to the cries for help.
 
Also, nobody screams in a fist fight. People scream when they are being beaten up. They scream when they are being chased. When they are being held. But nobody screams in a fist fight.

Also true. Having been in, ah, more than one fist fight I have some experience with this. If you are beating someone's ass, you aren't the one doing the talking. Even if you are fighting back you aren't likely to be yelling.
 
Why can you easily believe a witness that says a person with a white tee was on top during the struggle, but dismiss the funeral directors observations after he worked directly with Trayvon's body?

Not to mention, so heavily discount the conclusions of two voice analyst experts, working independently, that Zimmerman was not the one screaming on the 911 call.
 
To be perfectly honest I'm not going to take a funeral director's word as the final word on something like that. He's most likely correct, but I'm not going to call it a fact that Trayvon showed no signs of a struggle.

Second, I don't believe people show lots of visible signs after punching someone a few times. I've seen people fight, and their hands were not bloodied after doing so. Depending upon what was happening, and where people were getting hit, things can appear very different. Even people suggesting Zimmerman couldn't have a broken nose because the video of him doesn't show anything, are way off base. You can have a completely broken nose, and in a video of that quality, from the distances the cameras were at, see nothing out of the ordinary.




I have no idea how that applies to the conversation I was engaged in.

Why then are you accepting the word of witnesses who can barely describe what took place?
 
Also, nobody screams in a fist fight. People scream when they are being beaten up. They scream when they are being chased. When they are being held. But nobody screams in a fist fight.

So either Zimmerman was just being manhandled, or he is lying. I haven't heard his full description of the apparent beating he took, screaming.


Lol so true. Lets just pretend it was Zimmerman screaming for help. Trayvon would've ran fearing cops would show up. If he did run, he would've been shot in the back. Another scenario would be if Zimmerman screamed for help, why all of a sudden the screaming stopped after the gun went off? Why didn't he kept screaming and shouted "help, i just shot someone."
 
Where did he discount that?

He didn't directly, but, looking over his most recent posts, his continued focus on what "John" the anonymous source that only Fox News Tampa Bay was able to talk to had to say about the color of the shirt of the guy on top, in light of evidence that is far less speculative*, is puzzling at best.

*But I hear the jury's still out on science.

I think there was a struggle....but as far as an all-out one-sided pummeling, that probably didn't happen. Meaning Trayvon didn't smash Zimmerman's head or whatever lie he told, and Zimmerman didn't punch out Trayvon (unless Zimmerman's knuckles were bruised and Trayvon's face also had cuts and bruises).

A struggle doesn't necessarily mean they were "fighting". They were probably wrestling/tussling (constantly wiggling and writhing trying to gain the upper-hand).....not throwing blows at one another. Maybe Trayvon knew that Zimmerman had a gun and intended to use it....leading to the cries for help.

Seems like a very plausible explanation.
 
I think there was a struggle....but as far as an all-out one-sided pummeling, that probably didn't happen. Meaning Trayvon didn't smash Zimmerman's head or whatever lie he told, and Zimmerman didn't punch out Trayvon (unless Zimmerman's knuckles were bruised and Trayvon's face also had cuts and bruises).

A struggle doesn't necessarily mean they were "fighting". They were probably wrestling/tussling (constantly wiggling and writhing trying to gain the upper-hand).....not throwing blows at one another. Maybe Trayvon knew that Zimmerman had a gun and intended to use it....leading to the cries for help.

This is what I think as well. Makes me also think that the screaming was probably the terror of whatever Zimmerman was saying to tray while pointing his gun at him - ie terror that he was going to be shot by this guy who had been stalking him.
 
Why can you easily believe a witness that says a person with a white tee was on top during the struggle, but dismiss the funeral directors observations after he worked directly with Trayvon's body?

Because being able to look out your window and say "I see a guy in a white shirt on top of another" doesn't exactly require special skills or knowledge.

Being a crime scene forensics expert does.

I think there was a struggle....but as far as an all-out one-sided pummeling, that probably didn't happen. Meaning Trayvon didn't smash Zimmerman's head or whatever lie he told, and Zimmerman didn't punch out Trayvon (unless Zimmerman's knuckles were bruised and Trayvon's face also had cuts and bruises).

A struggle doesn't necessarily mean they were "fighting". They were probably wrestling/tussling (constantly wiggling and writhing trying to gain the upper-hand).....not throwing blows at one another. Maybe Trayvon knew that Zimmerman had a gun and intended to use it....leading to the cries for help.

Agreed. I've never made any claims about what actually went down in the fight. Only pointed towards pieces of evidence that gives us clues.

Why then are you accepting the word of witnesses who can barely describe what took place?

I've only accepted two pieces of evidence from 911 calls as fact. That two men were fighting/tussling and one was on top of the other. And one of them was wearing a light colored shirt or top of some kind. Those are very simple observations to make when someone is right outside your window.

As I just explained to Big Baybee, examining a body for crime scene evidence is another matter entirely.

Where did he discount that?

In his head.
 
I've only accepted two pieces of evidence from 911 calls as fact. That two men were fighting/tussling and one was on top of the other. And one of them was wearing a light colored shirt or top of some kind. Those are very simple observations to make when someone is right outside your window.

That's three.
 
Because being able to look out your window and say "I see a guy in a white shirt on top of another" doesn't exactly require special skills or knowledge.

Being a crime scene forensics expert does.



Agreed. I've never made any claims about what actually went down in the fight. Only pointed towards pieces of evidence that gives us clues.



I've only accepted two pieces of evidence from 911 calls as fact. That two men were fighting/tussling and one was on top of the other. And one of them was wearing a light colored shirt or top of some kind. Those are very simple observations to make when someone is right outside your window.

As I just explained to Big Baybee, examining a body for crime scene evidence is another matter entirely.



In his head.

It takes special skills or knowledge to say there were no bruises or other markings they had to cover up while they were preparing his body?
 
Also, if there were bruises on Zimmerman, they probably resulted from the struggle/tussle, not something inflicted by Trayvon. Hell, a bloody nose (if this actually happened) could have come from Zimmerman kneeing himself in his own face. I've done it. lol

God I wish there were a video of this :-/
 
Don't believe Zimmerman? What the hell do the facts I presented there have to do with believing Zimmerman? Are we not to believe the 911 calls where people reported seeing a two guys scuffling on the ground outside their window? Did Zimmerman make that phone call?

Yea there was a confrontation, I don't see what your point is.


And your attempt at painting me as indifferent to the crime is pathetic. When you attack the messenger rather than the message, you've got to rethink your position.

I don't need to make you seem indifferent, you do it to yourself. Earlier in this thread you posted this.


I'm trying to understand why this story has gotten such attention. I'm not trying to be callous, but I just feel like there are shootings every single day in Chicago, not far from where I live, and I don't see thousands of people assembling in cities to mourn those losses.

Many of the victims of those Chicago shootings are the same age as Trayvon, so the tragedy is no less sad.
 
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