Support NeoGAF

[Xcellere]

It's all silly, playing internet detective or internet general or whatever it may be - but that's not something I'd deride.

Look, I don't know if you don't understand how to play the game, but if you word your arguments right, you can be a 'contrarian' - you can make a point against the masses. It's just that obviously when you take up such a position, you need to tread extremely carefully. Not fair, but practical.

Me, for example? I think that race plays a negligible role in what happened. Taking up that position, and arguing it has never gotten me yelled at in this thread, called names or anything - you just need to know your audience.

When people ignore plausible arguments from one side, they're doing a disservice to all of us. I say "us" because this case has racial repercussions across the country, and I'd just like to see rationality win at the end of the day, which at this point in time seems unlikely.

This thread, just like any other discussion on an Internet forum, would be so much more constructive if every poster involved didn't have an agenda or tried to distort the facts. But that's a pipe-dream.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Could Zimmerman flee the country today if he wanted to?
If so, why hasn't he done so?

If he wanted to, yes. He's not under arrest, so he can go wherever he wants. Not sure how far he'd get without someone recognizing him, though. Plus, people would automatically assume guilt.

 

[Kinitari]

Can anyone help me out? I am trying to make a gif of the video I linked from 4:23 to 4:26, and another from 4:32 to 4:35.

 

[BruiserBear]

When people ignore plausible arguments from one side, they're doing a disservice to all of us. I say "us" because this case has racial repercussions across the country, and I'd just like to see rationality win at the end of the day, which at this point in time seems unlikely.

This thread, just like any other discussion on an Internet forum, would be so much more constructive if every poster involved didn't have an agenda or tried to distort the facts. But that's a pipe-dream.

You're starting to get it.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Is anyone seriously arguing that it was a head wound on the back of his head? Looks like wrinkles on the back of his head just like the back of George Foreman's head. Any serious lacerations wouldve been bandaged or looked at that night.

Either they're old scars or wrinkles, which are completely natural and occur without any previous scarring.

I've had my head bashed into the concrete before. If they were really scars, they'd be from dragging, but it doesnt look like there is any skin coming from the back of his head.

 

[Kinitari]

Two simple gifs I made, as it's easier to understand in motion.




There's nothing there.

edit: last one, slow mo no sharpness

 

[LuCkymoON]

What a mess:



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&pagewanted=7&partner=rss&emc=rss?

I will never step foot in the state of Florida without a gun.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Interesting, but ultimately, I wouldn't trust any video from this point forward unless the video itself is higher-res instead of "enhanced."

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

I see shadows being casts by a lumpy head. I don't see lacerations.

 

[soundahfekz]

Two simple gifs I made, as it's easier to understand in motion.




There's nothing there.

There's nothing in the back of his head but wrinkles.

Surely there could be a couple cuts impossible to see with the vid quality, but even then this whole gash debate is completely irrelevant as it has been scientifically proven that it was not Zimmerman screaming for help.

Unless youre willing to make the leap that Trayvon screamed for help while bashing Zimmerman's head in, his story nor his 'wounds' lend any credibility to the defense of killing the kid so let's try to move past semantics for once?

 

[demigod]

lmfao

Do you really want to keep digging that hole? You're the one who's cornered themselves into defining *near* and *saw*, not me.

The ladies in that video I provided say they were talking to Zimmerman. Asking him questions. How far away do you think they were? Too far to know if he had a coat on or not? That's where this started. Me saying they were close enough to know whether he was wearing a coat or not, and you interjected your nonsense at that point.

Apparently you missed what I said when I quoted you. I said you're out of your mind if you thought they were next to him in seconds.

 

[codhand]

Love me some detective gaf, so the police straight up lied about his back seat first aid what nots?

 

[GungHo]

WTF is re-digitized?

It's like when George Lucas made Greedo shoot first.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

Then he shouldn't be free

I believe it is most likely that Zimmerman made up the injuries to avoid getting arrested and I think he should be convicted of murder and sentenced to prison, but I have to disagree with you about what you posted.

Legally, a person would be allowed to shoot when it's clear that somebody is about to attack them, before even a single punch lands. I don't really agree with that type of self defense law as I feel it gives the shooter too much discretion, especially if they have preference for starting conflicts rather than avoiding them. But that's how the law is.

Edit, now I see that you were only talking about Zimmerman not having any injuries as he claims.

However, in this particular case, the fact that the injuries Zimmerman claimed are almost certainly nonexistent means that his self defense claim in general is kaput. Even then one could probably argue that Trayvon had the right to fight Zimmerman in self defense considering all Trayvon knew was that he was being stalked by some random guy.

 

[Norml]

CNN said he was treated before brought in for questioning so would be cleaned up some.

I would say there definitely are some marks on his head,the cop even gives it a long look.

 

[Loudninja]

He didn't his lawyer an family already tired making excuses for why he had no injures in the video?

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I see shadows being casts by a lumpy head. I don't see lacerations.

Same.

 

[marrec]

At least we're back to "The cop is looking at his head so clearly he was injured". A much better argument then the laughable re-digitazation.

The Gifs clearly show no mark. Why do we not have re-digitized footage from 10-14 seconds to look at?

 

[Loudninja]

The cop lookign at the back of his head means nothing.

Zimmerman claim a injury so obviously they will look at.

 

[Pandaman]

At least we're back to "The cop is looking at his head so clearly he was injured". A much better argument then the laughable re-digitazation.

The Gifs clearly show no mark. Why do we not have re-digitized footage from 10-14 seconds to look at?

'The Gifs clearly show no mark'

GAF worries me sometimes.

 

[marrec]

'The Gifs clearly show no mark'

GAF worries me sometimes.

Cause the re-digitized video is obviouly better than the GIFs?

:lol

 

[ElFly]

If Zimmerman goes with the "I was attacked" story, I wonder if Treyvon's family can use Stand Your Ground against it. After all the kid had all the reasons to fear bodily harm.

 

[nib95]

Two simple gifs I made, as it's easier to understand in motion.




There's nothing there.

edit: last one, slow mo no sharpness

Based on this GIF, I'd say it clearly shows no mark. Not that it matters. If some guy chases me down with a gun, yes I'll defend myself and fuck his shit up.

 

[Stinkles]

Two simple gifs I made, as it's easier to understand in motion.




There's nothing there.

edit: last one, slow mo no sharpness

Holy shit. That last one is whatever the opposite of a smoking gun is.

 

[dojokun]

The fact that experts are openly stating that it wasn't Zimmerman crying for help makes his self-defense claim false, which in turn makes his injuries or lack thereof a non-issue. Regardless of who-hit-whom-when-why-how, we know that Zimmerman was not the one crying for help, which means we know Trayvon was, which means Zimmerman had control of the situation, which means the shooting was not self-defense regardless of what happened up to that point.

 

[Blackace]

I believe it is most likely that Zimmerman made up the injuries to avoid getting arrested and I think he should be convicted of murder and sentenced to prison, but I have to disagree with you about what you posted.

Legally, a person would be allowed to shoot when it's clear that somebody is about to attack them, before even a single punch lands. I don't really agree with that type of self defense law as I feel it gives the shooter too much discretion, especially if they have preference for starting conflicts rather than avoiding them. But that's how the law is.

However, in this particular case, the fact that the injuries Zimmerman claimed are almost certainly nonexistent means that his self defense claim in general is kaput. Even then one could probably argue that Trayvon had the right to fight Zimmerman in self defense considering all Trayvon knew was that he was being stalked by some random guy.

I said he shouldn't be free because he wasn't injuries therefore he couldn't claim self defense.. Which is what you just wrote.. So you are disagreeing with me how?

 

[Stinkles]

CNN said he was treated before brought in for questioning so would be cleaned up some.

I would say there definitely are some marks on his head,the cop even gives it a long look.

It was 36 minutes from when the cops arrived, took his statement, processed him at the scene, amber lamps arrived, treated his injuries, decided he should NOT be treated or observed for concussion, or that a broken nose was a fine walk away injury, to the arrival at the police station you see in the gifs.

36 minutes.

Also, SCALP WOUNDS BLEED LIKE CRAZY. Broken noses usually do too, but not always. But Scalp wounds ALWAYS bleed like mad.

 

[Figboy79]

This thread amazes me. It really does.

The astounding twisting and turning some people have done to make their point is fascinating to behold.

Judging from what facts we have, it's pretty clear what happened in Florida.

Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by George Zimmerman. That much is 100% certifiable truth.

The big question is: WHY did he shoot Trayvon Martin?

Zimmerman claims self defense.

Which then begs the question: WHY would Trayvon Martin attack George Zimmerman with enough force to warrant shooting and killing him?

Zimmerman has yet to give a reason for being suddenly attacked out of the blue. I hate to interject my own bias here, but it seems to me that he was relying on the "black males are aggressive and volatile" perception of black men to back up his story and leave no questions asked. The sad thing is that, before this case went international, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

Even at the start of this thread, we had people assuming that Trayvon Martin just "HAD to have been doing something wrong, or else he wouldn't have been shot, right?"

Zimmerman's "defense wounds" were so "grave," that he was not bandaged by on the scene EMT. Oh, wait, now the POLICE tended to his wounds, which we ALL KNOW police do >insert sarcastic smirk here<.

Wounds so grave that the police officer in the video gave Zimmerman's head a long glance (perhaps trying to see if anything was there at all?), then gave it no further thought.

Zimmerman has a history of aggressive behavior, going so far as to assault a police officer, an authority figure. To me, that shows a lack of respect for authority. Which is interesting, given that Zimmerman tried to become an officer, and did not make the cut.

Trayvon Martin has a negligible bit of history involving an empty baggy with marijuana residue.

No matter what we bicker about in this thread, a 17 year old boy was still shot and killed by a complete stranger, while walking home from the store.

It's not the fault of the people clamoring for Zimmerman to be held accountable that Zimmerman has not been able to sufficiently explain WHY that 17 year old boy is dead by his hand.

Stop the victim blaming, implied or outright stated. It's disgusting to witness.

 

[Norml]

It was 36 minutes from when the cops arrived, took his statement, processed him at the scene, amber lamps arrived, treated his injuries, decided he should NOT be treated or observed for concussion, or that a broken nose was a fine walk away injury, to the arrival at the police station you see in the gifs.

36 minutes.

Also, SCALP WOUNDS BLEED LIKE CRAZY. Broken noses usually do too, but not always. But Scalp wounds ALWAYS bleed like mad.

hmmm,that is a long time.

some grabs that I think look too odd to be shadow.Head spot looks the same,but has different angle.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

I said he shouldn't be free because he wasn't injuries therefore he couldn't claim self defense.. Which is what you just wrote.. So you are disagreeing with me how?

Sorry, I thought you were saying a person can't claim self defense if they weren't injured.

 

[Blackace]

Sorry, I thought you were saying a person can't claim self defense if they weren't injured.

Of course you can.. But an unarmed 17 year old isn't one of those times

 

[samus i am]

The fact that experts are openly stating that it wasn't Zimmerman crying for help makes his self-defense claim false, which in turn makes his injuries or lack thereof a non-issue. Regardless of who-hit-whom-when-why-how, we know that Zimmerman was not the one crying for help, which means we know Trayvon was, which means Zimmerman had control of the situation, which means the shooting was not self-defense regardless of what happened up to that point.

Yep, it seems pretty simple to me. Zimmerman has been exposed as a liar, and there are other things in in story that don't add up. Arrest this man.

 

[BobLoblaw]

Excellent summary of events on CNN. Zimmerman is so full of shit. Trayvon's call with his gf ended at 7:16 PM EST, exactly the time when one of the residents first called 911.

 

[Vicetrailia]

People may still play the field, but I don't think that there is anyone in here who thinks that Zim should not be arrested.

Arrest him!

 

[Vicetrailia]

Excellent summary of events on CNN. Zimmerman is so full of shit. Trayvon's call with his gf ended at 7:16 PM EST, exactly the time when one of the residents first called 911.

Damn. Oh and it was a dark hoodie, I forgot that Zim said that. Not a light one.

 

[verbum]

People may still play the field, but I don't that there is anyone in here who thinks that Zim should not be arrested.

Arrest him!

If they did, would that be an "Arrested Development"?

 

[Dram]

Excellent summary of events on CNN. Zimmerman is so full of shit. Trayvon's call with his gf ended at 7:16 PM EST, exactly the time when one of the residents first called 911.

So from seeing that the officer said the EMT spent at most eight minutes treating Zimmerman before police took him to the station.

 

[nib95]

Excellent summary of events on CNN. Zimmerman is so full of shit. Trayvon's call with his gf ended at 7:16 PM EST, exactly the time when one of the residents first called 911.

Great summary.

 

[Parallax]

Excellent summary of events on CNN. Zimmerman is so full of shit. Trayvon's call with his gf ended at 7:16 PM EST, exactly the time when one of the residents first called 911.

8 minutes were used tending to his wounds? well that doesnt suprise me.

 

[The Technomancer]

People may still play the field, but I don't that there is anyone in here who thinks that Zim should not be arrested.

Arrest him!

That's the crazy part to me. I can accept that there is a conceivable way that he could go to trial and not be found guilty after an arduous investigation of some kind. Its waaaaay out there, but its within the realm of conception that we don't know enough to call him definitively guilty.

But that he hasn't even been arrested? Mind-boggling

 

[Htown]

Excellent summary of events on CNN. Zimmerman is so full of shit. Trayvon's call with his gf ended at 7:16 PM EST, exactly the time when one of the residents first called 911.

Here's my question.

Why does it take the cops so long to check on Trayvon on the ground?

 

[MIMIC]

Two simple gifs I made, as it's easier to understand in motion.




There's nothing there.

edit: last one, slow mo no sharpness

LOL. This pretty much answers any question about his alleged head injuries. A zoomed-in, moving-image depicting all relevant angles. And still...nothing

In the 2nd GIF, if you freeze it at one point, a dent appears in his head. If you used that image in isolation, it could appear to be some sort of cut or bruise. But once you let it play, it's clear that it's just the result of the lighting.

 

[reggieandTFE]

Why is there no bandage if he was hurt? Do Sanford paramedics have some post suture trauma care?

 

[bob_arctor]

Damn. Oh and it was a dark hoodie, I forgot that Zim said that. Not a light one.

So the only person close to wearing something "white" (think this was what one witness said) was Zimmerman then? Yeah. Arrest this asshole already.

 

[Dram]

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-lawyers-want-feds-to-look-into-state-attorney-zimmerman-family-presence-on-february-2.php

Trayvon Martin: Lawyers want feds to look into state attorney, Zimmerman family presence on February 26

Lawyers for the family of Trayvon Martin, who was shot and killed at a Sanford, Florida housing complex on February 26th, want the Justice Department to look into whether members of Zimmerman's family, and the state attorney then on the case, were at the police station on the night of the shooting.

In a letter to Roy Austin, the deputy assistant attorney general at the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division, dated April 2nd, attorney Benjamin Crump states that, since their last meeting with Justice officials, the attorneys 'have learned new information which is of paramount importance in considering whether or not a fair and impartial investigation was conducted by the Sanford police department."

"In particular," the letter states, "we learned that on the night of February 26, 2012, within hours of the shooting in which Trayvon Martin was killed, Sanford Chief of Police Bill Lee met with State Attorney Norm Wolfinger. We also believe that family members of shooter George Zimmerman were present at the police department."

The letter goes on to list other issues, including allegations that Wolfinger and Lee overruled the investigating homicide detective, Chris Serino, who, according to news reports, disbelieved Zimmerman's account of the shooting and recommended that he be arrested for manslaughter.

The letter doesn't doesn't offer any caveats regarding the allegations, including reporting by theGrio, via an anonymous source, that Wolfinger traveled from his home on the night of the shooting, after 7:30 p.m. on a Sunday night, to confer with the police chief and the investigations supervisor, Robert O'Connor.

But sources tell theGrio that rumors are swirling in Sanford, that Zimmerman's father Robert, a former magistrate judge in Virginia, picked Zimmerman up from the police station after he was released.

As a magistrate, the elder Zimmerman's responsibilities included conducting probable cause hearings for persons entering the Virginia criminal justice system and determining whether to issue search warrants in criminal cases.

 

[MIMIC]

Why is there no bandage if he was hurt? Do Sanford paramedics have some post suture trauma care?

I mentioned it earlier in the thread: Zimmerman is clearly Wolverine. No bandages necessary.

But seriously, why haven't we heard from the people who treated Zimmerman?

 

[Zoe]

So the only person close to wearing something "white" (think this was what one witness said) was Zimmerman then? Yeah. Arrest this asshole already.

I wouldn't really call his shirt anywhere close to white though. It's clearly medium to dark grey in the video. I don't think that witness will be considered reliable.

 

[ElFly]

Man, the two minutes gap between Zimmerman starting going after Trayvon, and Trayvon being shot, don't leave a lot of time for Trayvon to hide and then sneak attack Zimmerman.

Particularly due to all the time "someone" (chances are it was Trayvon) is heard yelling for help.

 

[SUPREME1]

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-lawyers-want-feds-to-look-into-state-attorney-zimmerman-family-presence-on-february-2.php

BOOM.

 

[Eggo]

Don't mean to derail the thread, but seriously, wtf Sanford? I had to double check that the date was correct and that I didn't time travel.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ng-teen-20120402_1_teen-shot-sanford-officers