Except graphics factor into game design at its core. Its a visual medium. The shit beaming to your eyeballs matters. Its not everything, sure, but it matters.
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Game Informer: " Why Xenoblade Chronicles Makes Me Want To Punch a Kitten"
- Thread starter anaron
- Start date
Except graphics factor into game design at its core. Its a visual medium. The shit beaming to your eyeballs matters. Its not everything, sure, but it matters.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Scenario proposed: The Wii in this hypothetical scenario was released, and is capable at outputting its games in HD.
My questions:
-How powerful is this theoretical HD Wii? Is it exactly the same thing as the Wii, just with HD capabilities? Or is it in the WiiU range?
-Does the market demand for these HD Wii games to look as good as 360/PS3 games?
-Does Nintendo demand HD Wii games to look as good as 360/PS3 games? What if their focus had been very different this generation, and they pushed for graphics like the other two?
-Would the budget for Xenoblade in this scenario go up?
-Would Xenoblade be aiming for the same market?
-Would Xenoblade had been made the exact same way if it was aiming for a different market?
-Would Xenoblade had been made at all? (It likely would have been replaced with another DS RPG, assuming the DS existed)
-Would Nintendo be in a position to fund a Monolith game?
-Would Monolith stayed alive long enough to make Xenoblade?
A perfect storm would result in an HD Xenoblade. But it seems so preposterous to me that I don't see the point.
I'm not talking about the future; people are proposing theoretical past events.
mr stroke
Member
Neither was I, internet tough-guy.
Honestly, the worst part was the end.
State that Xeno is a great RPG, one of the best of the gen easily.
Acknowledge that its a great game repeatedly.
End by saying that Nintendo needs to make a console with tech closer to their competitors or exist the business entirely taking said great games with them to the grave.
I mean.... wow, thats a pretty amazing statement right there. Either make these admittedly great games look better to meet my personally standards, or screw you and your good games, take them and die in a fire. How much weight does the fact that these are quality games reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hold with him if this is his stance? People are really dancing around that statement of his, its absolutely indefensible. It also takes a steaming crap on handheld gaming.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
A game can't get an "HD makeover" if it was never made. So explain.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
To be fair, though, games in general have lost something since last gen. The obvious comedic response to that is "jaggies", but in terms of gameplay, the HD era has kind of abandoned the attention to detail we used to see. There are exceptions, sure, but the "SD defense force" as it were does have a point.
That's not what people are getting at. What a lot of you don't understand is that it would have taken A LOT of extra time and money to develop a game like Xenoblade on a HD system. You think any company would put that extra time and money into an RPG of all genres these days? No, they wouldn't (Skyrim and S-E asides). If Xenoblade had been developed on a HD system, it's not that silly to assume it would be a very different game. Things that people love about the game, like the sheer scale, the huge amount of content, the huge lack of loading, would not have happened if that was the case. Especially from a developer creating their first game of the generation, as well as just having been taken over by Nintendo, and thus, despite their previous efforts, would have had a lot to prove to show that they can provide games just as good as any other Nintendo game.
Are you seriously claiming there are no SD games that have been HD-ified? And thusly, this proves that the same would be impossible for Xeno? I don't even know anymore.
I see you came back to this thread. Legitimate question: Do you have Xenoblade Chronicls or even own a Wii?
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
This.
Like I can see the argument that it'd look better in HD, but there are no HD platforms Nintendo could put it on. So, goes back to what I initially said. It was a game designed for the Wii, for the Wii it does a pretty damn good job. It doesn't give a fuck it's on a console with lower technical limits.
Edit: Yes, the Wii U is an available choice, but Xenoblade is old now and Monolith Soft has already started a Wii U and 3DS project.
What the hell?
I have tried to read this post and follow the quote line back 3 times now, and I cannot for the life of me follow you. You must either be missing the context of the post you originally quoted, or you are failing to articulate what you mean. This post as I can tell makes no sense, especially the first sentence. If you could explain exactly what your point is I think that would help. I am completely lost.
Yes, day one on both.
Am I not free to come and go here as I please? I like sorting through the shit and seeing legitimate points being discussed. Is that a big deal?
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Are you suggesting an HD collection a la Sly Collection? Because those are released collections of games that have already been made. I'm not talking about this. Maybe Nintendo will re-release the game again in HD. That would be cool. Less kittens would be punched.
Are you suggesting the game should have been finished, held back and then released on the WiiU in HD? Because that seems like a waste of resources, considering how heavily it was designed for the platform it resides on. This is what I think you are talking about, but I have no idea, because when I questioned the point you responded with nothing of substance.
Same here. But why make sense when you can be snippy?
H_Prestige
Banned
They haven't lost anything. There were plenty of shallow games last gen too.
I hope the SD crowd is also against the idea of the Wii U in that case.
No, just curious since all you were doing last night was to tell people to stop when you didn't like their opinions and it seems all you're doing today is stirring the shit pot some more. I also haven't seen any of your posts in any of the various Xenoblade Chronicles threads we've had lately going by your post history so I was curious why you are so vocal in your stance about it now.
Its not impossible. Thats the point. But I suppose we're trailing now. For the record, you're guilty of being snippy too. So apologies, lets make up.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
People have to post in related threads to be passionate about a topic now?
Plenty of us primarily lurk on gaming side you know.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Hugs and kisses.
But yeah, if you want to give me an actual thing to talk about and defend, you would be helping by clarifying exactly what you think is not impossible. "HD Makeover" can mean many things. I was talking about a very specific theoretical HD Xenoblade, so I want to make sure everybody's on the same page here.
People have to post in related threads to be passionate about a topic now?
Plenty of us primarily lurk on gaming side you know.
I'll lurk for weeks, post a ton for three days, and then lurk for weeks again.
anotherVegan
Member
Allow me to reiterate. The author states that Xenoblade suffers because its graphics are horrible. And then he cites FF7 as a good example of this. But FF7 had pretty awful graphics at times, citing the great in-game LEGO models the game used most of the time. So he pretty much contradicts himself, and then goes on a tirade against the Wii. The catch is, I'll bet he is wowed by a game such as Shadow of the Colossus, which is on an underpowered console, but has great art direction. The author is so blinded by his Wii-hate that he can't see what is in front of him, and can't appreciate good art when it is in front of him. He wants Link and Mario to flourish without being on limiting hardware, but it's not the hardware that is the limitation. Skyward Sword, Donkey Kong Country Returns, and Galaxy 2 are gorgeous games because they have great art direction, and they are not judged by the number of polygons in front of him.
If he is counting polygons, he should play FF13, as that games has plenty of them.
People have to post in related threads to be passionate about a topic now?
Plenty of us primarily lurk on gaming side you know.
Considering how many threads we have had on Xenoblade Chronicles within the past year, to lurk through all those and then decide to post in the one that's basically a polarizing, hyperbole filled criticism opinion article thread and suddenly show interest is kind of hard to buy.
But Neverfade liked the ending to Mass Effect 3 anyway so I guess it's not too far fetched.
Hey you're the one who picks and chooses which posts to respond to. I'd be more than happy to have an actual discussion on the subject.
You're missing the point entirely.
There are too many variables involved to definitively say yes or not it would happen IMO.
Yeah I can't wait to see what they say when they become part of the HD defense force. =p
H_Prestige
Banned
There was nothing like FFVII at the time. It's prerendered backgrounds were unmatched and the battle graphics were way beyond any other RPG. Even the lego models were pretty detailed and very expressive. Way more expressive than the sprites people were used to.
Basically, you'd have a point if FFVII looked like a SNES RPG.
This thread reminds me of this experiment.
You must keep expectations low and not think what might be, lest you become unhappy with what you can get and demand more.
You must keep expectations low and not think what might be, lest you become unhappy with what you can get and demand more.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Seems like very few people get why the Wii is such an important platform, and the only reason why a game like Xenoblade Chronicles was made. Or atleast the reason I agree with.
And yes, theoretically it would perhaps be a more enjoyable experience on a HD platform since most humans want pretty things -- but that's besides the point that the existance of Wii let such a game be made.
On a HD console, they might start out with the same vision, but it'd eventually get compromised/changed (Perhaps by a publisher, perhaps by someone on the project, perhaps the natural progression of attitude/mentality of working on a HD project.) cause of the general human desire for better graphics, or focusing on a single, technological aspect.
If you don't believe me, check out a behind the scenes video with developers making a game for Xbox360/PS3, or an interview, or just take a look at the entire video game collection of those 2 platforms.
I'm not saying all the games on PS3/Xbox 360 are bad, just that the industry and public attitude of wanting the greatest graphics in each new game, every time, has definitely compromised gaming somewhat in general.
So, The basic structure of video game development and human nature prevents a game like Xenoblade Chronicles from being made on a HD platform.
I posted a longer post on this earlier but it's quite an interesting subject to discuss, so I thought I'd chime in again.
So you feel that if this were on an HD console it could've ended up a different because the focus would've been on graphics, and that could've detracted something else.
By the same token I think the developer really pushed the Wii with this game, so yeah, graphics apparently were just as big a focus. They just had weaker hardware to work with.
So wait, Game Informer is responsible for publishing something that possibly-irrationally jabs at Nintendo over some goofy cooler-than-thou grievance, and it's a 20+ page thread? I guess that I'm just kinda surprised by the reaction here... having spent time paging through GI for a while now, it sounds like a typical Tuesday down at the ranch to me.
Anyway, yeah, that's an embarrassing article... I think that some of the people with the biggest platforms to speak about gaming always seem to be the people most in love with simply hearing themselves talk.
Anyway, yeah, that's an embarrassing article... I think that some of the people with the biggest platforms to speak about gaming always seem to be the people most in love with simply hearing themselves talk.
Who describes something as "wants to punch a kitten"?
(to be fair, I should stop commenting on how socially awkward this said person must be in real life based on his choice of phrases and start commenting on how utterly asinine it is for someone to really judge Xenoblade based on technical constraints)
(to be fair, I should stop commenting on how socially awkward this said person must be in real life based on his choice of phrases and start commenting on how utterly asinine it is for someone to really judge Xenoblade based on technical constraints)
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
He seems to be fitting in quite fine in the NFL thread. ;P
That Uncharted would look better on PC but might cost a little more? No I got that, the problem is whether or not this fictionally constructed world offers us any good discussion to take back with us to reality which is clearly not the case.
Exactly I bet all the people here complaining about HD graphics are salvivating at the thought of HD Mario Zelda and Metroid. I have yet to see one post from anyone claiming these games will now suck because they are transitioning to HD with the Wii-U.
What the...
Never mind, I give up. You guys will cherry pick, spin, move the goal post, and whatever else that helps suite your opinion.
Well the last 10 or so pages were because he joined GAF to defend his viewpoints but pretty much just came and insulted people and posted a haters gonna hate meme. Past few pages have just been people talking about hypothetical nonsense and disappointment from a lack of wish fulfillment.
He's a kicker for the NFL, I don't understand why he would want to punch a kitten instead of kicking it either.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Um no. The Nintendo I grew up with didn't bother to bring games like that over to the US.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
He plays professional football. He's likely doing alright.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
You seemed pretty sure about my questions so I'll take your word for it. The reason those questions were vague was because there's so many possibilities.
Why did I do this? I'm just pointing out that there are a hell of a lot of situations that are pointing away from Xenoblade being exactly as it is in HD, and I'm finding it extremely difficult to thing of a situation in which it would happen. Partially what makes the game are the way it copes with the Wii limitations and its budget size, hence, it would require a perfect storm of variables to align.
This "SD Defense Force" characterization doesn't do anyone's argument any favors, especially considering the variety of responses to the article so far.
Strawmen have invaded. EDIT: I take that back, they invaded a long time ago.
Like, say, Suikoden did?
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
I dunno, considering the assets on creation were more than likely already more than high enough res to work fine in HD before having to downsample them appropriately for the Wii hardware (which is already the typical pipeline for the HD consoles), I'm not sure how much of an impact a more capable platform would have had on the game's overall design. As is it would already be more than adequate for the other platforms from a game design perspective.
I agree 100% that there is a whole laundry list of variables to consider and comprehend before we even begin to speculate the possibility of Xenoblade in HD. I just don't agree with the posts how the Wii made Xenoblade possible or that people are expecting Uncharted level visuals to be pleased.
IF the same game were developed in the Wii-U, the differences may be neglible, the game may suffer, or the game may benefit and be improved. We really don't know for sure but the attitude of some people in this thread limits the range of discussion we can have in this thread. (Not talking about you btw).
Honestly, it was just a joke, at least on my part. Has more to do with Nintendo than SD anyways and I don't plan nor wish to piss on anyone's parade, just looking for a decent discussion for what I think is an interesting topic.
Yep. Fire Emblem, Famicom Wars are series that took around a decade for the first game to be released in the US. Yet, some act as if Xenoblade is this extraordinary case; when if anything it was surprising that it was released so soon. Many even expected it to end been released through digital distribution on Wii U...in the best case scenario.
And as always, agree with Kaijima. <3!
have my babies, please!!!
(EDIT: ...and again since I already hear the "lol nintendo fanboy callings", I don't disagree completely with Chris as I mentioned earlier
he's married and with a kid already, so..can't have my babies...
)How can you be tired of something they've only done once? Before Wii Nintendo was producing consoles that were usually more powerful than competitors. And the milking really doesn't apply to Nintendo franchises. Nintendo puts a lot of time and effort into their titles and differentiates each title from previous entries. It's not like they just toss together a Mario game. If they did that their games wouldn't be worth buying.
This mentality of "Nintendo is repeating Wii with WiiU" also ignores a lot of factors:
Wii is just barely more powerful than its predecessor, the GCN; WiiU is (more than) a "generation" more powerful than its predecessor. Wii is an SD system; WiiU is an HD system. We don't know exactly how powerful it is yet, or for that matter, how powerful its competitors will be.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
Which came first, the game's design or the platform they picked for it? Would the design have changed if the platform changed? This makes me wonder, then, if the game design came first, did the developers say "should we wait five years before we make this?" due to the size and scope? (I don't actually know, I'm asking generally.)
EDIT: Iwata Asks makes it sound like a bit of the game design was first, then it was put on the Wii, then some design was added, then it was changed for the platform, and so on. Iterative. Sounds pretty realistic, and it puts this in a different light.
I look at the death of anything that isn't AAA on the consoles and wonder if that would have flied, though. Look at the peanut gallery already muttering about how bad Epic Mickey 2 looks, because it's a Wii game in HD. (Different situation based on expectations, I know, just an example.)
Personally, I agree that Xenoblade would look better in HD. I'm going to play the crap out of it on Dolphin if I get the chance. I'm just trying to think of a situation in which the SD issues could have been rectified in the market today, and my inability to do so has been the general gist of my posts.
It's an amusing joke, though it's hard to know who is being serious. I think you're already being taken up on your characterization already.
I would defend Nintendo's SD because it is an example of Nintendo's careful strategy of not blowing budgets out of the water. I believe those growing budgets have been a problem this generation, and lead to a slew of other issues. While I would have preferred a Wii with a bigger frame buffer and better component-out support, I see the overall strategy that Nintendo has started to take and support that. I prefer an industry where we have a wide variety of budgets available for developers.
I can't speak for others, but I think an inability to express this may be one of the reasons why misunderstandings occurred in this thread.
No, you misunderstand. I'm telling you this is an imaginary race, there are no goal-posts. You can't win. This discussion is counter to reality where Monolith Soft had 2 choices in 2009 when they started, DS or Wii. Everything else is based on hypothetical scenarios and the only value is to add to a discussion that was terrible before it started.
This is what I hate. I often find myself liking the graphics of HD remasters more than current gen games because they run at higher resolutions and framerates and generally look much cleaner.
I am still not convinced that there is not a market for original games like this because I don't think devs ever actually tried making games this way. They just tried pushing the hardware to its limits from the very beginning. I would buy games like this especially if they sold for $40 or $50 rather than $60.
I expect we're going to see a lot of this on the Wii U, for better or worse (I say better).
Conciliator
Banned
Xenoblade is pretty good, and the graphics are pretty good. If it was on the other consoles, it would probably look amazing, and because of that be a little bit better. But it looks pretty good. It's amazing what they get with the draw distances and procedurally generated flora out of the Wii. It looks better than Oblivion in that regard, easily. The character models and general fuzziness is where it suffers most. The character faces, though super simple, emote pretty well though. There's just not that much to complain about, much less throw a temper tantrum about.
Yeah, I agree. I have also been hoping that the Vita takes off in Japan so that Japanese devs start making Vita/PS3 games that I can play on my TV.
context is important. i am not sure what the context for the nes was in relation to other consoles in terms of power in 1985, or the famicom in relation to other consoles in 1983, but it at least had games people wanted and people could make games that people wanted... on it (how's that for a well-formed sentence).
the snes was a powerful system, but it was also released two years after the sega genesis. the n64 was a powerful system, but it was also released two years after the saturn and playstation. the gamecube was a powerful system, but it was released 18 months after the ps2 and almost three years after the dreamcast. there's a history of powerful systems that are late to the party.
the wii was an effort by nintendo to stay profitable even if they couldn't grab a huge slice of the market anymore. i don't think it was their expectation to be the market leader with the wii, but it's what wound up happening. remember, the gamecube sold about twice as much as the dreamcast in about twice the time. i think their expectation was that people would buy the cheap console in addition to the more expensive one, but if that failed, they could at least keep the little niche they had going, appeal to the same 4-6 million people who still bought zelda and mario games, and just become their own little part of the industry.
with the wii u, nintendo is making a generational leap. in the past, this usually meant they would get good tech and wait for it to become affordable before they could sell it- or get good tech that they know would be affordable by the time the console would release. however, they also used to arrive late.
i think the wii u was supposed to launch in 2011, and the 3ds was supposed to launch in 2010. we know the 3ds was pushed back several months, and that probably shifted everything into the future a bit. this also fits the weird original release date of the wii u being sometime in early or mid 2012. and the rumors of the wii u using 2008 (i think?) tech would be more in line with how they used to make game machines like the snes, n64, and gc if they were originally releasing it in 2011.
hard to say if there have been any increases to power behind the scenes. admittedly, i don't know what they could have possibly done to do anything like that because i know nothing about tech, but i have to assume that whatever they would have done wouldn't make the system too much hotter or require more power to run. they probably also had a pricepoint in mind when they picked out the stuff they're putting in it. not just for the release of the machine, but also if they run into a situation where they would need to drop the price.
the snes was a powerful system, but it was also released two years after the sega genesis. the n64 was a powerful system, but it was also released two years after the saturn and playstation. the gamecube was a powerful system, but it was released 18 months after the ps2 and almost three years after the dreamcast. there's a history of powerful systems that are late to the party.
the wii was an effort by nintendo to stay profitable even if they couldn't grab a huge slice of the market anymore. i don't think it was their expectation to be the market leader with the wii, but it's what wound up happening. remember, the gamecube sold about twice as much as the dreamcast in about twice the time. i think their expectation was that people would buy the cheap console in addition to the more expensive one, but if that failed, they could at least keep the little niche they had going, appeal to the same 4-6 million people who still bought zelda and mario games, and just become their own little part of the industry.
with the wii u, nintendo is making a generational leap. in the past, this usually meant they would get good tech and wait for it to become affordable before they could sell it- or get good tech that they know would be affordable by the time the console would release. however, they also used to arrive late.
i think the wii u was supposed to launch in 2011, and the 3ds was supposed to launch in 2010. we know the 3ds was pushed back several months, and that probably shifted everything into the future a bit. this also fits the weird original release date of the wii u being sometime in early or mid 2012. and the rumors of the wii u using 2008 (i think?) tech would be more in line with how they used to make game machines like the snes, n64, and gc if they were originally releasing it in 2011.
hard to say if there have been any increases to power behind the scenes. admittedly, i don't know what they could have possibly done to do anything like that because i know nothing about tech, but i have to assume that whatever they would have done wouldn't make the system too much hotter or require more power to run. they probably also had a pricepoint in mind when they picked out the stuff they're putting in it. not just for the release of the machine, but also if they run into a situation where they would need to drop the price.
Vermillion
Banned
You could but it would cost more money. Duh.
Allocation of resources/money actually mean something.
You assume that if the game cost more to make, it would be exactly the same, but you don't take that allocation into account.