Battersea Power Station
Member
He's exaggerating to make a point: each of those two sequels took the plot and genre in a completely different direction.
P R O M E T H E U S |OT| Ridley Scott goes back to Building Better Worlds
- Thread starter SCULLIBUNDO
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SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
This is the most terrifying shit. Ridley is a sick bastard. That is too dark, by almost any metric. Even thinking about it is...fuck.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Aliens at least feels completely connected to the same universe. The entire first half (so long as you're watching the directors cut) matches up pretty damn well with the atmosphere of Alien.
It bridges itself into new territory very well. Where as with Alien 3 you just land in shitsville straight off the bat.
Battersea Power Station
Member
How? The first half of Aliens is completely different: it's imbued with a sense of comfort and control. There's a colony in place and there's a family. Something goes wrong, but there's a huge corporation present to take care of it. Then there's a whole team dynamic, always providing backbone and tension relief.
There's none of the feeling of isolation, loneliness, and desparation that defines Alien. And then the second half is just balls to the wall great action.
The first half the film is tense, but it's all methodical wind up, as is the case in the first film. In the extended cut, there is some extra footage reflecting some of Scott's style when it comes to establishing the ship and providing a slower, more haunting passage. The balls to the wall action in the second half is what the film transitions to.
It has a stronger sense of continuity to Alien than the other films, in content and tone, and then transitions into a very different kind of film, set in the same universe.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
The first half of Aliens (DC) mirrors the tone and atmosphere of the first half of Alien quite well.
The lone ship drifting through space. The cold and mechanical innards of the Narcissus whose only signs of life are the automatic routines being performed by the shipboard computer systems (the beeping of the proximity warning being the first real sign of life, like the system in Alien when Mother needs to wake the crew). The robotic c-section performed on the Narcissus where the scanner then comes in to scan for organic signs of life.
Apart from Ripley's nightmare, the tone of her being on board the space station in the hospital and going to the company meeting very much mirrors the tone of the crew of the Nostromo waking up and having breakfast. The stark white aesthetic is even the same. Then when Ripley does decide go back to LV426, we get a very nice introduction to the mechanical 'life' on the Sulaco while all of them are sleeping, which again mirrors that of the Nostromo in Alien.
You don't meet the marines till at least half an hour has passed.
Battersea Power Station
Member
I dunno. You guys are taling about the setting, not necessarily the entire theme. Aliens never feels unsettling. There's always an escape, something to make it all ok emotionally.
I also think that's why Alien 3 gets irrationally hate: it breaks the fairy tale quality of Aliens, and refuses to allow you comfort. Alien also didn't allow comfort, but in a different way.
That's one thing about Cameron: I know it's a conscious decision, but his movies are always very safe. There's "tension," but it's always very calculated, and feels like it's the token downturn present only to give context to the triumphant climax.
I also think that's why Alien 3 gets irrationally hate: it breaks the fairy tale quality of Aliens, and refuses to allow you comfort. Alien also didn't allow comfort, but in a different way.
That's one thing about Cameron: I know it's a conscious decision, but his movies are always very safe. There's "tension," but it's always very calculated, and feels like it's the token downturn present only to give context to the triumphant climax.
demosthenes
Member
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
WHAT? You must be joking.
In the Aliens/Terminator 2 days, there was nobody better at making you feel dread at the pit of your stomach. Those were films where you never felt your characters were safe. And when you did think they were safe, the Queen would slice through Bishop and unfurl from the landing gear. Or the T1000 would morph back together from little droplets.
Aliens is never unsettling? You're insane. As soon as Ripley accidentally walks into the Queen's nest and you hear that breathing. Hell, when they first find the cocooned colonists it's much more unsettling than anything in Alien 3.
I like Alien more than Aliens, but you are out of your goddamn mind.
Edit: In fact, Battersea, Roger Ebert would like a word.
Battersea Power Station
Member
Something popping out to kill or stab someone is not unsettling, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. I'm talking about a mental state. Aliens always offers an out to let you off the hook emotionally, whether it's a companion, a gun, a line delievered at an otherwise quiet moment, a tough facial expression, a hysterical outburst, etc. There's always something to grab onto. You're never left with the feeling of impending doom, and you never have to turn your emotional focus inward to face your own thoughts and disturbances. At most, you're scared about something that goes bump in the night.
The breathing is just part of the physical setting, the external factors, not the emotional landscape, the frontier of the mind.
The breathing is just part of the physical setting, the external factors, not the emotional landscape, the frontier of the mind.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
And when Ripley and Newt make it to the top of the atmosphere station and Bishop's gone with the station about to explode and the Queen coming fast up the shaft? Where is the obvious out then?
Saying that Aliens fails to be unsettling while Alien 3 does is incomprehensible to me.
Ripley walking into the Queen's nest and literally facing the mother of her fears is absolutely unsettling in the 'emotional landscape' of things.
in which we begin to argue Alien v Aliens like every other Alien thread.
Cameron may be more safe than Scott, but read Roger Ebert's original Aliens review. he describes the extreme action/violence as being new to the point of almost avant-garde. it may seem dated, or look that way compared to the original, but you must know it's the best children's action movie.
Cameron may be more safe than Scott, but read Roger Ebert's original Aliens review. he describes the extreme action/violence as being new to the point of almost avant-garde. it may seem dated, or look that way compared to the original, but you must know it's the best children's action movie.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Except that nobody is talking Alien v Aliens. Somebody is saying that Aliens isn't at all unsettling, while Alien 3 is. I have a problem with that.
I know. I was talking about the race, not that particular ship.
I think they mean right before Dallas is grabbed. He turns toward camera, and you can see the alien behind him before he turns toward it and it jumps out to grab him. If they mean any earlier than that, I've never spotted it.
it's nuanced but these look like the same arguments as ever to me : ?
picture the dark future where people just say that Alien3 is obviously better than Aliens. this is something I wish upon neither of us
besides I agree that Alien3 is more unsettling, and mean, it gave me more nightmares as a kid. that doesn't equate to scarier or superior
picture the dark future where people just say that Alien3 is obviously better than Aliens. this is something I wish upon neither of us
besides I agree that Alien3 is more unsettling, and mean, it gave me more nightmares as a kid. that doesn't equate to scarier or superior
Battersea Power Station
Member
I'm not sure why you're taking it as an insult. It's not like it makes Aliens a bad movie; it's great. In the scenes you described, though, Ripley takes on danger and the possibility of death with an air martyrdom and sacrifice: we can cheer her on, even in death, because she's done it or is doing it for the greater good.
In Alien, there's no such thing. It's just a visceral and naked attempt at clawing her way back into the light from the horrific clutch of a miserable demise.
And I'm definitely not trying to say that one movie is better than the other.
In Alien, there's no such thing. It's just a visceral and naked attempt at clawing her way back into the light from the horrific clutch of a miserable demise.
And I'm definitely not trying to say that one movie is better than the other.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Again, my problem is your trying to paint Aliens as devoid of moments that are unsettling, whilst trying to say Alien 3 achieves that. Well, that and you trying to say that Cameron's scenes of danger always feel 'safe' - when the opposite is true.
Alien 3 isn't unsettling, it is downright boring. It has some interesting ideas but the execution is beyond uninspired - not entirely Fincher's fault.
Alien 3 isn't unsettling, it is downright boring. It has some interesting ideas but the execution is beyond uninspired - not entirely Fincher's fault.
Sculi has this covered, but there are some moments of absolute dread and despair in Aliens, many involving Newt.
"It won't make any difference."
"We'd better get back soon, and they mostly come out at night. Mostly."
The entire exchange about how there really are monsters, after all. Those moments are incredibly unsettling to me, as is the entire face hugger attack, the reveal of the queen, the aliens hunting everyone down in the air shafts, the shot of the alien rising out of the water behind Newt. Many moments where utter despair sets in, or dread and discomfort hang over the film.
Alien does have a more pervasive feeling of menace running through it, I think. It's got this contant, gradually escalating tension that works on me almost at a primal level. The sexual overtones and the superior creature design, and the way it's filmed, are incredibly effective; it's what the film is about. But while Aliens goes in a different direction in terms of action and style (the latter half in particular), I've always felt it was very unsettling in its own way.
VVV oh crap how could I forget that.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Aliens has one of the most nightmare inducing moments for me. When they think they have barricaded themselves in, but realize that the Xenomorphs are in the room. Hicks pushes up the ceiling tile and turns to reveal the Aliens within feet of his face. Shit still gives me nightmares.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
There is a reason why the sound of the motion tracker is permanently seared into the minds of many people who have seen Aliens and it's not because it was catchy.
Nappuccino
Member
Maybe it is because I don't have any nostalgia with Aliens, but these lines are incredibly cheesy to me. It doesn't bump up my dread, it just makes me kinda shake my head and wish that there wasn't someone around forcibly stating what should be obvious.
There is some dread in Aliens, but a lot of it is lost because a) Newt never really feels in danger b) Ripley never really feels in danger and c) everyone else is annoying or paper thin so you don't really care if they die (the one exception is Bien's character).
I disagree with points a and b. it's exciting to watch Ripley fight the Queen because by then she has shed her fear and is angry, the aggressor. this is why Ripley works in Aliens, her character has changed, something you rarely see in action/sci fi films.
'get away from her you BITCH' and then the Queen screaming still makes me weep
in other words, the first half of Aliens has the dread build up, landing on the planet, sequel stuff, but the second half it turns the dread into visceral, emotional action, probably Cameron's best undertaking of this kind save maybe T1
then Alien3 is like 'dread dread dread' and it leaves many cold
'get away from her you BITCH' and then the Queen screaming still makes me weep
in other words, the first half of Aliens has the dread build up, landing on the planet, sequel stuff, but the second half it turns the dread into visceral, emotional action, probably Cameron's best undertaking of this kind save maybe T1
then Alien3 is like 'dread dread dread' and it leaves many cold
Okay, we've watched different movies.
Really? Newt never feels in danger when an alien emerges from the water behind her? The shot of the doll's eyes closing gets me every time. I feel like you're confusing knowing the ending with the story the film is telling moment to moment.
Paper thin characters? No less than the first film. (Which were not paper thin.)
Ghost_Protocol
Member
I'm really not liking these tv spots. The theactrical trailer set the perfect tone, and these shorts on tv do not.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Maybe now they feel safe and calculated after the concepts in them have been copied so many times, but back when it came out, Aliens was pretty damn freaky and genuine. The fact that the dread many times is there to give context to hero's triumph would never even cross my mind back then. It's something that would become more obvious only since it has become a trope, by being copied so many times in so many other movies.
Nappuccino
Member
I agree, the final fight is awesome. But I don't feel dread for Ripley then or prior.
@GhaleonEB: Yep. I understand that they are "potentially" in danger. But never once during the movie do I believe that Cameron will do anything to Ripley or Newt.
@Sculli: Yes, those are fantastic scenes, but I don't feel dread during them. Maybe a little "Oh shit, how's she gonna get out of this one?" But I never feel "Oh shit, she is absolutely fucked now" like I felt numerous times during Alien.
This isn't bad... it's a different experience from dread. But I certainly don't feel dread.
as to knowing the ending = less dread... that does little to explain why I still feel dread every time I watch Alien.
I think the biggest reason some people feel less dread in Aliens relative to Alien is due to the significant influx of action. Alien was basically constant creeping dread punctuated by a few scenes of violence, so that allowed for a greater sense of overall tension.
Also probably critical is that the crew in Alien consisted of miners and engineers who were being stalked by an unknown entity, while in Aliens they were a group of well-equipped marines who set out on a purposeful hunt (before of course becoming the hunted).
Also probably critical is that the crew in Alien consisted of miners and engineers who were being stalked by an unknown entity, while in Aliens they were a group of well-equipped marines who set out on a purposeful hunt (before of course becoming the hunted).
ThanksVision
Member
Rewatched Aliens on blu-ray (transfer is WOW!) a few minutes ago and just wanted to say the entire Ripley rescuing Newt sequence is about as DREADING as it can get. Ripley slowly working her way lower and lower into the facility, leaving flares behind while the radar beeps faster and faster. Then it all stops and the queen emerges. Seriously, the quiet unveiling of the queen makes my heart stop every time.
We simply experience the films differently, then. I read your posts and am flabbergasted. There's nothing really to argue; we can clearly describe scenes of dread and articulate why they are effective, and you're just saying, nope. Fair enough, but there's nothing here to talk about.
Yup.
Battersea Power Station
Member
That's completely true, which ultimately makes these discussions pointless. One of us is going to focus more on the plot, another is going to look closely at the set design, a guy that just broke up with his girlfriend will be more sympathetic to Ripley, a German expressionism student is going to view it differently still, and Quentin Tarantino would only look at the camera angles.
Nappuccino
Member
Zeliard gives a pretty good explanation for my experience of the movie.
My problem (as far as horror/dread goes) is that it becomes an action/war movie with caricatures instead of characters. I just find myself having more difficulty getting invested most of the marines (Hicks and Bishop being the two exceptions) especially when compared to how natural the characters in Alien come across.
I should note that I am not some kinda horror aficionado or the kinda guy who laughs in the face of scary movies. Aliens just doesn't do it for me and it's because the tone of it (80's) and characters in it don't do it for me (on a horror level- the persistent cheesy dialog doesn't help).
It's still a pretty darn enjoyable movie though.
Still my favourite scene of Cameron's entire filmography.
right before he's attacked, you can see it in the background from the light of the flamethrower.
Nappuccino
Member
right before he's attacked, you can see it in the background from the light of the flamethrower.
I'm sure you're right... but damn if I cannot see anything there lol.
it's a shitty picture, but you can see the dome of the xeno's head right above the flame.
I went to see Men In Black 3 and there was a trailer for Prometheus I had not seen before. It was actually kind of bizarre and focused almost exclusively on Idris Elba's character. It was cut to make him sassy.
Theron's character: "If you go down there, you're all going to die."
Elba (obviously in an entirely different scene): "Aww hell no!"
Etc and so forth.
Just strange.
Theron's character: "If you go down there, you're all going to die."
Elba (obviously in an entirely different scene): "Aww hell no!"
Etc and so forth.
Just strange.
right before he's attacked, you can see it in the background from the light of the flamethrower.
Yeah I see it. Here, I gif'd it. You can see it a little better here:
Still not sure it's as bone-chilling as I pictured when it was described here.
Here's a good HD version of the scene, linked to that moment. Look behind Dallas, by the flame, as he turns toward camera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=431nGWVxXf4&t=252s
Edit: that works too. :lol
Nappuccino
Member
I remember reading a theory that the xenomorph was supposed to be near the end of it's lifecycle by the end there. It was dying and tried to find a quite place to do it peacefully. It sort of fits with incredibly fast growth to have an incredibly fast death.
And now that picture makes total sense! I just didn't know what I was looking for/at. It's a pretty nice little touch there.
Angry Fork
Member
What are the chances Prometheus and Blade Runner sequel will make Cameron think about coming back to hardcore sci-fi. I'm okay with Avatar but I miss old Cameron =(
that makes sense considering the eggification of brett and dallas.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Do you mean Sci-Fi with a darker edge? I think Battle Angel is supposed to fit that bill, though I do hope something prods him into heading back to his darker days.
It's part of the reason why I kind of want to see him do The Last Train From Hiroshima at some point.
yeah that works too. xenomorph had a pretty big day
Sort of a random note, but I was reading up on the history of Alien's development - or maybe it was the Anthology docs, I can't remember - but at one point, only Brett was going to be turned into an egg - Dallas was cocooned to be the face hugger's victim, so the alien was perpetuating itself, rather than just leaving eggs behind. It was changed to have them both be turning into eggs in the cut scene. It also helps with the idea that it had a short life cycle - by the time it would have died, Dallas would have had a face hugger on him and the cycle would be going again.
Though, I personally don't subscribe to the idea that the alien was dying at the end. I think it just knew humans were not a threat at that point and was taking its time.
never knew that. i guess it speaks more to the creature not having a short lifespan.
Totally, bro. They're never in danger.
Damn, do I love that scene. Someone gif it!
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
I just wasted a good few minutes of my life trying to figure out what the | O T | were spelling out in Promethean.
Im a fool.
2 weeks to go....hopefully the IMAX wont have too many people, i want centre centre with room on both sides to wave my hands like a little girl.
Im a fool.
2 weeks to go....hopefully the IMAX wont have too many people, i want centre centre with room on both sides to wave my hands like a little girl.
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