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[Dram]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/30/indiana-prosecuting-chinese-woman-suicide-foetus

When her baby Angel died in her arms at 1.30am on 3 January 2011, Bei Bei Shuai was so distraught she was instantly transferred to the mental health wing of the Methodist hospital in Indianapolis. Grief stricken and under heavy sedation, she was unaware that within half an hour of her baby's death a detective from the city's homicide branch had arrived at the maternity ward and had begun asking questions.

While Shuai was embarking on a journey into bereavement that continues to this day, the Indianapolis authorities were also setting out, albeit along a very different path. On 14 March last year Shuai was arrested and taken into custody in the high-security Marion County prison, where she was held for the next 435 days, charged with murdering her foetus and attempted feticide. If convicted of the murder count she faces a sentence of 45 years to life.

Bei Bei Shuai is at the sharp end of the creeping criminalization of pregnancy across America. Women who lose their unborn babies – whether in cases of maternal drug addiction or in Shuai's case a failed suicide attempt – are increasingly finding themselves accused of murder.

On 23 December 2010 Shuai became so depressed after she had been abandoned by her boyfriend – a married Chinese man who broke his promise to set up a family with her – that she decided to end her life. She consumed rat poison, and after confessing to friends was rushed to the Methodist hospital.

Doctors took steps to save her, but on 31 December there were signs that the baby, then at 33 weeks gestation, was in distress and a Caesarian was performed. On the second day of Angel's life the baby was found to have a massive brain hemorrhage and on 2 January was taken off life support.

For the first time in Indiana's 196-year history, the state has applied felony charges against a woman that hold Shuai criminally liable for the outcome of her pregnancy. Earlier this month the Indiana supreme court declined to hear the case, rendering a 3 December murder trial almost inevitable.

Lawyers and women's advocates in Indiana were astonished by the prosecution's hard line. To attempt to take one's own life is not a crime in Indiana, so the decision to charge a pregnant woman appeared to be creating a double standard.

The feticide law, introduced in Indiana in 1979, was designed with violent third parties in mind: abusive boyfriends or husbands who attacked their pregnant partners, causing them to lose their unborn babies. It was enhanced to carry a maximum sentence of 20 years in 2007 after a bank robbery in which a pregnant woman was shot in the stomach, killing her fetus but leaving her alive.

Pence fears that Shuai's prosecution could set a precedent that will catch others in its trap. In the future, could women who smoke or drink during pregnancy and suffer a miscarriage be prosecuted for murder, or women with HIV who pass it on to their child in the womb? "No one wins from the criminalisation of pregnant women – all this will do is persuade women to flee the state, avoid treatment or have an abortion," Pence said.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

I was going to make a rat poison joke, but this shit is not okay.

 

[Escape Goat]

Needs more bolding.

 

[akira28]

Hrm. I guess some people really are right to fear that a law with good intentions could suddenly be turned around to victimize the people it's intended to protect. Slight bit of 'true believer' naivete on my part.

 

[Brian Griffin]

What is prosecuting her going to solve??? What is punishing her going to prevent??? The lack of empathy here is amazing.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

You know, I don't care if you want to commit suicide in a way that doesn't harm anyone else, but for fucks sake your pregnant.

 

[Jenga]

DAMN YOU INDIANA JONES

 

[akira28]

What is prosecuting her going to solve??? What is punishing her going to prevent??? The lack of empathy here is amazing.

Punishing the depressed mother for the death of her unborn child. AKA Guilty souls must pay.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

Hormonally-frustrated justice system mooks having a subconscious fit? It's more likely than you think!

 

[Loofy]

Just wondering is it a law that pregnant women cant smoke or willingly consume drugs/food that could harm the baby?

If not then it should be.

 

[markot]

So happy to have a penis

 

[JGS]

This seems old.

Pence fears that Shuai's prosecution could set a precedent that will catch others in its trap. In the future, could women who smoke or drink during pregnancy and suffer a miscarriage be prosecuted for murder, or women with HIV who pass it on to their child in the womb? "No one wins from the criminalisation of pregnant women – all this will do is persuade women to flee the state, avoid treatment or have an abortion," Pence said.

I hate when they make these false comparisons. The mother tried to kill herself while knowingly pregnant in the late stages of pregnancy.

This in no way sets a precedent for the other examples.

 

[MThanded]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. She was 33 week so she was way past 14 weeks. The fetus was very developed and she thought it was a good idea to take rat poison to get back at her boyfriend. Seriously...

Terrible situation all around. Terrible for her. Terrible for her 33 week old fetus. SMH

 

[grumble]

Just wondering is it a law that pregnant women cant smoke or willingly consume drugs/food that could harm the baby?

If not then it should be.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[Chumly]

Most people cant comprehend having severe enough depression to want to kill yourself. I can't believe they are actually punishing her for this.

 

[MThanded]

If you have depression and you kill another person(non fetus) you have to prove you were not mentally stable enough to know right from wrong correct?

This situation is really a mess.

 

[Kusagari]

I don't know how anyone could want to be born a woman.

You don't even have full legal control over your own damn body.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

Same problems here as with the Texas student-cum-breadwinner, prosecuted inhumanly as well. Just a bad situation overall.

 

[Previous]

Where do you draw the line?

Before the lines of coke?

 

[JGS]

The TX girl didn't kill something to make ends meet did she? I fail to see the comparison.

This woman hasn't been treated any kind of way yet. It's altogether possible that she will beat the charges since they will likely use some kind of fake comparison with abortion and pro-choice. Even then, the jury may sympathize with her plight as a crazy person.

 

[jett]

That was an eight month old fetus, virtually a grown baby ready to be born. This woman dun goofed. I don't know about first degree murder but certainly she must be held responsible.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

I don't know how anyone could want to be born a woman.

You don't even have full legal control over your own damn body.

It's a pretty bum deal, alright.

I really hope she beats this.

 

[Pollux]

Tragic situation all around, hope the girl gets some help.

 

[Huff]

Seems similar to a murder suicide situation. Some kind of punishment is necessary

 

[MThanded]

I have been pro-choice all my life. I don't support 33 week abortions though. I'm assuming most/all pro-choice people don't. With that being said, you can't compare this to an abortion case unless you think abortions at 33 weeks should be allowed.

This was an eight month old fetus!!!

 

[WorriedCitizen]

When it comes to abortion my stance is pro-choice. However this baby was 33 weeks so by any means can be considered a human being. Pre borns much younger have a reasonable survival rate.

The situation appears similar to someone who wants to kill himself in his car while having passengers on board. Of course her mental health situation needs to be taken into account. 45 years seems way overboard.

 

[shadyspace]

While Shuai was embarking on a journey into bereavement

This is awful writing.

 

[chaostrophy]

I haven't heard of the Chinese government prosecuting someone for something like this. Which is the free country again?

 

[Gaborn]

Is there some relevance to the OP mentioning she's ethnic Chinese? Is she a citizen or an immigrant?

 

[Brian Griffin]

Seems similar to a murder suicide situation. Some kind of punishment is necessary

She has already lost a baby and is so depressed she tried to kill herself. How much more punishment do you think she deserves? I don't think punishing her will deter other pregnant women from being highly depressed and trying to kill themselves so what's the point?

 

[JABEE]

Don't they usually charge murderers who kill pregnant women with the death of the unborn child? It would seem to apply here.

 

[Dragoon En Regalia]

The TX girl didn't kill something to make ends meet did she? I fail to see the comparison.

This woman hasn't been treated any kind of way yet. It's altogether possible that she will beat the charges since they will likely use some kind of fake comparison with abortion and pro-choice. Even then, the jury may sympathize with her plight as a crazy person.

The two cases are different, but both cases involve some rather-insensitive reactions from the law.

 

[sflufan]

I have been pro-choice all my life. I don't support 33 week abortions though. I'm assuming most/all pro-choice people don't. With that being said, you can't compare this to an abortion case unless you think abortions at 33 weeks should be allowed.

This was an eight month old fetus!!!

Yes, I absolutely support abortions right up the actual birth.

 

[Gaborn]

I haven't heard of the Chinese government prosecuting someone for something like this. Which is the free country again?

Considering China has regularly been cited for forcing women to have abortions as well as forced sterilizations I'm not sure they have the moral high ground in this area.

 

[MThanded]

Yes, I absolutely support abortions right up the actual birth.

Are there a lot of late term abortion supporters? I was not aware that many people were in favor of that.

This may be my ignorance with the issue.

So you are fine with abortions up to the seconds before giving birth??

 

[JABEE]

She has already lost a baby and is so depressed she tried to kill herself. How much more punishment do you think she deserves? I don't think punishing her will deter other pregnant women from being highly depressed and trying to kill themselves so what's the point?

The question is should someone be able to use rat poison to decide whether a premature baby should live? I think she needs help, but she murdered a child.

 

[Dram]

Is there some relevance to the OP mentioning she's ethnic Chinese? Is she a citizen or an immigrant?

No, just copying name of the article from the website.

 

[Kitsunebaby]

Are there a lot of late term abortion supporters? I was not aware that many people were in favor of that.

This may be my ignorance with the issue.

I am, personally. I'm not normally one to deal in absolutes, but in my opinion a person should always have the right to do what they wish with they're own body.

I also don't see fetuses as people, to me they are only potential. They are not yet a part of society and are therefore not protected by societies mores. Also, to empathize more with unborn potential than you do with the mother seems rather strange.

 

[Huff]

She has already lost a baby and is so depressed she tried to kill herself. How much more punishment do you think she deserves? I don't think punishing her will deter other pregnant women from being highly depressed and trying to kill themselves so what's the point?

What normally happens to people that are depressed and then kill someone?

 

[JGS]

The two cases are different, but both cases involve some rather-insensitive reactions from the law.

This isn't insensitive to me.

I'm not quite sure what you are expecting them to do unless let her off the hook. It seems they waited 2 months to arrest her but I can't tell.

 

[sflufan]

Are there a lot of late term abortion supporters? I was not aware that many people were in favor of that.

This may be my ignorance with the issue.

So you are fine with abortions up to the seconds before giving birth??

Yes absolutely.

 

[MThanded]

I am, personally. I'm not normally one to deal in absolutes, but in my opinion a person should always have the right to do what they wish with they're own body.

I also don't see fetuses as people, to me they are only potential. They are not yet a part of society and are therefore not protected by societies mores. Also, to empathize more with unborn potential than you do with the mother seems rather strange.

What if the murder suicide was attempted seconds after birth?

 

[FyreWulff]

Are there a lot of late term abortion supporters? I was not aware that many people were in favor of that.

This may be my ignorance with the issue.

So you are fine with abortions up to the seconds before giving birth??

It wasn't a late term abortion. The baby was succesfully birthed and then later died.

Have they even proven they were linked? The baby was not C-sectioned out until an entire week after her suicide attempt. Are we going to treat every suicidal woman with attempted feticide if their baby is later born and eventually dies?

This charge is asinine, and the potential sentence of 45 to life is so stupid it makes my brain hurt.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I don't know how anyone could want to be born a woman.

You don't even have full legal control over your own damn body.

any intelligent judge should look at this case and go "who the fuck are these people and why are they wasting time and resources?". People should know better than using the court against nature. You can't pretend to control what you cannot control, because you simply do not have that type of control.

There is a fundamental category error here and this case should be booted from court before even going to trial. Or should have been, more like it.

 

[sflufan]

What if the murder suicide was attempted seconds after birth?

I don't understand what you're getting at.

 

[Brian Griffin]

Are there a lot of late term abortion supporters? I was not aware that many people were in favor of that.

This may be my ignorance with the issue.

So you are fine with abortions up to the seconds before giving birth??

I do from the standpoint of women having 100% control of their reproductive system. If it can live outside the mother then someone can adopt it but if she wants it out of her before that, she has the right to have it removed. I know it's extreme but as a man who can't experience being pregnant I don't feel it's my place to take any other stance.

 

[MThanded]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I just wanted to know your opinion on that. It was not a trick question. Just wanted an answer.

 

[Dude Abides]

Just wondering is it a law that pregnant women cant smoke or willingly consume drugs/food that could harm the baby?

If not then it should be.

Needs to be a federal task force dedicated to making sure pregnant women don't eat sushi or more than two servings of salmon per week.

 

[eznark]

I don't get how it isn't murder as the law is written. If I poison a pregnant woman and her unborn baby dies I'd be charged with murder. The law is treating the fetus as a separate life. Why would the mother not also be held accountable should she poison it?


Also lol at the sudden love of slippery slope arguments.

 

[JGS]

I do from the standpoint of women having 100% control of their reproductive system. If it can live outside the mother then someone can adopt it but if she wants it out of her before that, she has the right to have it removed. I know it's extreme but as a man who can't experience being pregnant I don't feel it's my place to take any other stance.

So induced labor for late term pregnancies?