Microsoft Surface Tablet announced

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MThanded said:
Right but devs could easily recompile them. They can't even do that because RT doesn't have the same OS functionality as 8. I'm saying even if you have source code you can just cross compile because RT is a different OS all together. It doesn't adhere to the same API as far as I can tell from reading.
Click to expand...
microsoft wants to push developers to developer for the new WinRT runtime.
 
nVidiot the other big reasoning seems to be that windows 8 is not really suited for mobile devices when it comes to power and heat. I'm assuming RT is much more targeted in those directions.
 
"Tablet" apps will all be Metro apps anyway, which are compatible with both Windows RT and Windows 8. People that need to run desktop apps can buy a Windows 8 tablet, people that want to use a tablet like a tablet can buy a Windows RT one.
 
This looks fantastic. Great job, MS. Now what does Surface have that 3rd parties won't have on their tablets?

Also, that Ballmer Megaman picture is brilliant. Right when I opened the thread to see the Ballmer picture, I imagined the exact drawing right beneath it. Nice work.
 
MThanded said:
Right but devs could easily recompile them. They can't even do that because RT doesn't have the same OS functionality as 8. I'm saying even if you have source code you can just cross compile because RT is a different OS all together. It doesn't adhere to the same API as far as I can tell from reading.
Click to expand...

I thought the original idea was that they would use the same API.
 
MThanded said:
Right but devs could easily recompile them. They can't even do that because RT doesn't have the same OS functionality as 8.
Click to expand...
You're still starting from base 0. You'll still have one OS with a huge library of legacy applications, and another with hardly anything at all.
 
nVidiot_Whore said:
The Windows RT / Windows 8 dichotomy serves MULTIPLE purpose.

And the "why" behind it has to do with the long sordid history that is the "Win32" platform and the various Windows kernels that have supported it, and the ARM based hardware platform that dominates the mobile device market.

It's a little bit complicated.

In a nut shell:

MS basically created an OS for mobile operating systems, they called this OS Windows RT. It's a successor to Windows Phone 7 really, but built to be more usable at a higher resolution on a larger screen.

This OS was designed to run on ARM based hardware.

At the same time, they continued to develop on the Windows 7 OS to create Windows 8. But instead of just doing that, they essentially built a version of WindowsRT into Windows 8. So that any code written for Windows RT, could also run on Windows 8, in it's own UI layer, called Metro UI.

It doesn't work the other way around.. again.. because of the history of these OS's, hardware platforms, etc.

Why? Well.. again, kind of complicated. It's just what MS thought would be a good idea..

The main idea being: get people to use MetroUI apps on PCs and you can hopefully sell a lot of MetroUI based mobile devices and maybe tie this into Xbox and other TV efforts somehow.

They also seem to be hoping touch-screen monitors catch on in the PC / Laptop arena. Making it so you REALLY end up with a Windows RT-like device whether it's Windows RT or Windows 8.

The side benefit: You get tablets that can act like tablets and desktops at the same time.

At least, that's how I see it.. and I think what MS's motivations were.

The motivation wasn't to create a tablet that also acts as a desktop PC. They could have done that at any point with Vista, or Windows 7... there are a wide range of x86 Windows tablets already on the market.
Click to expand...

the problem with this is that Windows NT and its succesors of XP Vista and 7 have all become increasingly hybridized kernels, but very streamlined in this regard. Windows 8 seems to blow this out of the water and just slaps a whole new kernel onto windows.
 
I'm in for the RT version. Don't care about the pro. I, like tens of millions of other office workers, spend all day in Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and a web browser. That's it. Every other tablet on the market is missing 3/4 of those. RT has them all.
 
btrboyev said:
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it looks like the cover comes with the unit.

From MS's website
"Some activities call for a keyboard. Surface comes with an integrated Kickstand and a revolutionary, 3mm thin, pressure sensitive cover that doubles as a fully functioning keyboard and trackpad. Your Touch Cover connects to your Surface with a single magnetic click. Now you can chat with friends and respond to emails comfortably."
Click to expand...

Coldfoot and others, did you see this
 
nVidiot_Whore said:
The Windows RT / Windows 8 dichotomy serves MULTIPLE purpose.

And the "why" behind it has to do with the long sordid history that is the "Win32" platform and the various Windows kernels that have supported it, and the ARM based hardware platform that dominates the mobile device market.

It's a little bit complicated.

In a nut shell:

MS basically created an OS for mobile operating systems, they called this OS Windows RT.

This OS was designed to run on ARM based hardware.

At the same time, they continued to develop on the Windows 7 OS to create Windows 8. But instead of just doing that, they essentially built a version of WindowsRT into Windows 8. So that any code written for Windows RT, could also run on Windows 8, in it's own UI layer, called Metro UI.

It doesn't work the other way around.. again.. because of the history of these OS's, hardware platforms, etc.

Why? Well.. again, kind of complicated. It's just what MS thought would be a good idea..

The main idea being: get people to use MetroUI apps on PCs and you can hopefully sell a lot of MetroUI based mobile devices and maybe tie this into Xbox and other TV efforts somehow.

They also seem to be hoping touch-screen monitors catch on in the PC / Laptop arena. Making it so you REALLY end up with a Windows RT-like device whether it's Windows RT or Windows 8.

The side benefit: You get tablets that can act like tablets and desktops at the same time.

At least, that's how I see it.. and I think what MS's motivations were.

The motivation wasn't to create a tablet that also acts as a desktop PC. They could have done that at any point with Vista, or Windows 7... there are a wide range of x86 Windows tablets already on the market.
Click to expand...

So true Win8 tablets will have there own ecosystem that RT will never see and if Win8 is supposed to be THE Windows tablet os then again, why have RT in the first place?
 
alternade said:
So true Win8 tablets will have there own ecosystem that RT will never see and if Win8 is supposed to be THE Windows tablet os then again, why have RT in the first place?
Click to expand...

They want devs to develop metro style apps. Also, RT is a much leaner OS than windows 8. Mainly because 8 has to support legacy apps.
 
Gary Whitta said:
I think someone in another thread suggested that MS should really jump-start the Metro app marketplace by taking NO percentage of app sales from devs in the first year. They can afford it. Populate the app market first, make it attractive to both consumers and devs, before taking a cut.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that would be a nice kick in the ass but there really shouldn't need to be any added incentive to put your app on the latest version of Windows.
 
I still think this thing will never be succesful unless they rename the OS to Windows THE OCHO

09_the-ocho.jpg
 
alternade said:
So true Win8 tablets will have there own ecosystem that RT will never see and if Win8 is supposed to be THE Windows tablet os then again, why have RT in the first place?
Click to expand...

Win8 tablets won't have their own ecosystem. Almost every touch friendly application will be written in WinRT and distributed through the Windows App Store. The "Windows 8" ecosystem isn't a tablet one, it is a desktop one.
 
The Pro variant is pretty much exactly what I've been wanting in a tablet device. I'll finally be able to replace my 5 year old MacBook assuming this thing isn't a dud hardware wise. And my completely uneducated guess is the RT will be 499/599, and the Pro will be 899/999. I'm not sure how much over 1K I'd be willing to spend though.
 
MThanded said:
nVidiot the other big reasoning seems to be that windows 8 is not really suited for mobile devices when it comes to power and heat. I'm assuming RT is much more targeted in those directions.
Click to expand...

Windows 8 itself doesn't have much to do with power and heat though.

They didn't code RT with some special "less power consuming" code.

It's just the fact that it's coded for ARM really. Beyond that, Windows isn't some great power consumer on it's own. It's just..built on other platforms (x86,x64), and re-coding it for ARM would be an enormous effort.

So they went the half-way route, and did it the other way around.

Coded an ARM OS and built support for it into their x86 versions.
 
So the Surface comes with the cover? Are we going to see five different SKUs for each? Pro White/Blue/Black/Red/Pink RT White/Blue/Black/Red/Pink?


e:
Not to mention 64gb 32gb and 128gb 64gb variants, or if they do low end processors too.
 
injurai said:
the problem with this is that Windows NT and its succesors of XP Vista and 7 have all become increasingly hybridized kernels, but very streamlined in this regard. Windows 8 seems to blow this out of the water and just slaps a whole new kernel onto windows.
Click to expand...

Yup.. it's a 2 kernel world now basically.

Pretty interesting as a developer.

But not entirely that different from just having multiple managed runtimes to target. For the "code to the Win32 API" C++ devs it's a bit more of a shock.. but it's not like a lot of those people aren't also experienced Java or .Net devs.. so conceptually it's not really some mindbender.

But is this MetroUI going to really work on PC's? Will there really be some big up-tick in touch-screen laptops and monitor sales or something to help this be usable?
 
nVidiot_Whore said:
It's just..built on other platforms (x86,x64), and re-coding it for ARM would be an enormous effort.

So they went the half-way route, and did it the other way around.

Coded an ARM OS and built support for it into their x86 versions.
Click to expand...

Not just that, running normal desktop apps on a mobile device doesn't seem like they greatest idea if you don't know what you're doing. The Metro environment is built for mobile, providing things like suspended apps, push notifications, limited multitasking. All of which is necessary.
 
nVidiot_Whore said:
Yup.. it's a 2 kernel world now basically.

Pretty interesting as a developer.

But not entirely that different from just having multiple managed runtimes to target. For the "code to the Win32 API" C++ devs it's a bit more of a shock.. but it's not like a lot of those people aren't also experienced Java or .Net devs.. so conceptually it's not really some mindbender.

But is this MetroUI going to really work on PC's? Will there really be some big up-tick in touch-screen laptops and monitor sales or something to help this be usable?
Click to expand...
the metroUI can be used with a mouse and keyboard.
 
I haven't bought a tablet yet, but I can see the appeal of using a Windows RT tablet that is synced with your home PC running Windows 8 with the cross compatible apps. The Pro would be great for people that need to take their work on the road. I guess it will all depend on the prices.
 
What are the iOS and Android equivalents of OneNote and how do they compare?

For business, drawing and education, an active digitizer is extremely useful. Do both versions have an active digitizer? or just the x86/64?
 
Oxirane said:
What are the iOS and Android equivalents of OneNote and how do they compare?

For business, drawing and education, an active digitizer is extremely useful. Do both versions have an active digitizer? or just the x86/64?
Click to expand...

I believe OneNote exists on iOS and Android. digitizer is x86/64 only. I'm sure other OEMs will make Windows RT tablets with digitizer though
 
PG2G said:
Win8 tablets won't have their own ecosystem. Almost every touch friendly application will be written in WinRT and distributed through the Windows App Store. The "Windows 8" ecosystem isn't a tablet one, it is a desktop one.
Click to expand...

He's just saying that in context twith only Windows RT tablets, not the other Windows 8 laptops/PCs.

Windows RT tablets won't have access to the Windows 8 ecosystem.

I personally don't think it matters nearly as much as GAF thinks. The iPad is THE proven device on the market right now. It does not attempt to run a "full blown" OS.. that is not what it's 10's of millions of sales are based on.

I could be totally wrong, but you guys are certainly basing your views on some un-proven device, that isn't even a mythical one. Slate based Windows devices have been flopping their way to obscurity for the better part of a decade. I just don't think they are suddenly going to outshine their Windows RT based cousins... just because.. they can function like their Windows RT cousins... for several hundred dollars more.
 
Oxirane said:
What are the iOS and Android equivalents of OneNote and how do they compare?

For business, drawing and education, an active digitizer is extremely useful. Do both versions have an active digitizer? or just the x86/64?
Click to expand...

Just the Pro has EMR pen. Don't know if Wacom or NTrig (although the tip does look like Wacom in photos).
 
PG2G said:
Not just that, running normal desktop apps on a mobile device doesn't seem like they greatest idea if you don't know what you're doing. The Metro environment is built for mobile, providing things like suspended apps, push notifications, limited multitasking. All of which is necessary.
Click to expand...

Exactly why I think the Windows RT tablets will be the main push.

Windu said:
the metroUI can be used with a mouse and keyboard.
Click to expand...

I'm well aware of that.. it's usability has been questioned by many. The mouse experience has been described to me as really awkward.

I need to try it myself.. but downloading Beta OS's is not my favorite Friday night activity.
 
Oxirane said:
What are the iOS and Android equivalents of OneNote and how do they compare?

For business, drawing and education, an active digitizer is extremely useful. Do both versions have an active digitizer? or just the x86/64?
Click to expand...
there is a one note app on iOS

nVidiot_Whore said:
Exactly why I think the Windows RT tablets will be the main push.



I'm well aware of that.. it's usability has been questioned by many. The mouse experience has been described to me as really awkward.

I need to try it myself.. but downloading Beta OS's is not my favorite Friday night activity.
Click to expand...
i admit, desktop is still king but the metro ui is still usable. I mostly stick to the desktop though on my....desktop.
 
alternade said:
So true Win8 tablets will have there own ecosystem that RT will never see and if Win8 is supposed to be THE Windows tablet os then again, why have RT in the first place?
Click to expand...

It runs on ARM, which is the new mobile hotness. Much better battery life, but is incompatible with the x32 programs that Windows has been building up since NT.
 
PG2G said:
Almost every Windows 8 device we've seen has a touch screen
Click to expand...

I'm talking about the PC / Laptop market.

My computer monitor is not touchscreen.. the laptop I just bought that I could upgrade to Windows 8 is not a touchscreen, etc.

These are "Windows 8" devices basically, and they don't have them.

So I'm wondering if we'll see a market shift towards "touch on all screens" because of MetroUI.

Or.. if people will just use it with a Mouse / Keyboard. I've heard bad things about that.
 
nVidiot_Whore said:
Yup.. it's a 2 kernel world now basically.

Pretty interesting as a developer.

But not entirely that different from just having multiple managed runtimes to target. For the "code to the Win32 API" C++ devs it's a bit more of a shock.. but it's not like a lot of those people aren't also experienced Java or .Net devs.. so conceptually it's not really some mindbender.

But is this MetroUI going to really work on PC's? Will there really be some big up-tick in touch-screen laptops and monitor sales or something to help this be usable?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess it can be looked at as a two for one environment now.

nVidiot_Whore said:
He's just saying that in context twith only Windows RT tablets, not the other Windows 8 laptops/PCs.

Windows RT tablets won't have access to the Windows 8 ecosystem.

I personally don't think it matters nearly as much as GAF thinks. The iPad is THE proven device on the market right now. It does not attempt to run a "full blown" OS.. that is not what it's 10's of millions of sales are based on.

I could be totally wrong, but you guys are certainly basing your views on some un-proven device, that isn't even a mythical one. Slate based Windows devices have been flopping their way to obscurity for the better part of a decade. I just don't think they are suddenly going to outshine their Windows RT based cousins... just because.. they can function like their Windows RT cousins... for several hundred dollars more.
Click to expand...

Eventually a full blown OS won't be too unheard of, we are just getting their now by the looks of it. Two years from now ARM may be fading again while x86 becomes a tablet mainstay. But who knows, only time will tell.
 
nVidiot_Whore said:
Exactly why I think the Windows RT tablets will be the main push.



I'm well aware of that.. it's usability has been questioned by many. The mouse experience has been described to me as really awkward.

I need to try it myself.. but downloading Beta OS's is not my favorite Friday night activity.
Click to expand...

It works pretty well. I barely used the Start Menu outside of the search in Windows 7 so it hasn't changed much for me.

I dread explaining it to a regular PC user at one of my clients though.
 
I'm using it on a desktop right now actually. It isn't too bad.

I think we'll see a lot of the newer devices like laptops have multi-touch track pads and/or touch screens.
 
Troll said:
So the Surface comes with the cover? Are we going to see five different SKUs for each? Pro White/Blue/Black/Red/Pink RT White/Blue/Black/Red/Pink?


e:
Not to mention 64gb 32gb and 128gb 64gb variants, or if they do low end processors too.
Click to expand...

Why ? They will just have the covers in their own packaging and when you order online / store you just select the cover color
 
Oxirane said:
What are the iOS and Android equivalents of OneNote and how do they compare?

For business, drawing and education, an active digitizer is extremely useful. Do both versions have an active digitizer? or just the x86/64?
Click to expand...

Evernote and Skitch maybe? It's more functional than the OneNote on Windows Phone, but the Android version of Evernote isn't on par with the desktop OneNote. If you just need something that syncs your notes and keeps them well organized, Evernote + Skitch will get the job done.
 
my main problems with metro on the desktop are basically just for one, no applications and two multi monitor, can only run the Metro UI on one screen at a time.
 
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