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[gcubed]

So, Windows like their Dell?

i thought this is running metro?

 

[Damon Bennet]

i really dont see the use for a facebook app for example. the mobile site is great and I can upload pics and vids via windows phone anyway. i think it will be possible with iOS too, soon.

 

[eznark]

That's not the known quantity in tablets.

Yeah, but if we are talking about Joe Jackass at the Best Buy, it's going to be easy for the blue shirt to sell them on "staying in windows"

 

[Raistlin]

You're not the only one, it's a garbage aspect ratio--especially for tablets.

You're garbage

It would be garbage for iPad because iPad is different. This is made with the intent of dual apps, and to be set in landscape mode for most uses. If you don't like that, fine ... but it's not 'garbage' for the OS and UI design. It's logical.

This isn't running iOS in landscape mode on a 16:9 screen.

Try to think a bit more open minded. You like Apple, so surely you must like the idea of thinking outside the box of traditional interfaces..

It's pretty clear he's anything but open minded based on his posts here

16:9 is a perfectly fine aspect ratio for a tablet that seems to function exclusively (or at least well) in landscape orientation. For true tablets (i.e. not a keyboard-less laptop), 4:3 is a no brainer.

What is a 'true tablet'? And why is 4:3 a no brainer for it? The UI plays a huge part in which is 'better'.

After thinking more about this last night, this is clearly not a home run in either direction.

The RT model is light and thin, but with a bad aspect ratio and low resolution.

The Pro model has a good resolution, but still a bad ratio, and it's heavy, thick, and has air vents.

Both are designed to be used in landscape predominantly, which is a mistake.

It looks like a solid first entry(depending on the info we don't have yet). Neither will set the world on fire.

lol

The RT version? What does it offer that the iPad doesn't?

• Dual apps
• Better multitasking
• Live tiles
• Direct compatibility with Metro apps on your desktop (same UI and fully synced)
• Subjective, but some would argue a better design language for the UI and apps
• Full office
• USB
• micro HDMI
• micro SD
• Mouse/Keyboard/Stylus support

 

[ari]

Pretty much this. The WinRT version of Surface will be the V6 Mustang to the GT. Meaning its going to be the higher selling and the one that carries the platform forward allowing for higher spec'd models. The WinRT install base will sore from launch .. that is .. if ...

Price. Price this right MS and you've got your killer device.

this..i was so sure i was getting the ipad 3 next week because it was the best in the market by a damn landslide. Apps makes the ipad for me. The android market is silly in comparison, its like origin competing with steam(apple), but i can see the landscapes on both IOS and RT gain traction with this.

I don't know why the ipad is just so appealing to me. It truly is like crack.

 

[Tobor]

Yeah, but if we are talking about Joe Jackass at the Best Buy, it's going to be easy for the blue shirt to sell them on "staying in windows"

Sure, it worked for Windows Phone 7.

 

[Gary Whitta]

Well, the following prices are straight from Apple's website:

$499
$599
$629
$699
$729
$829

for the various models.


If you go with the average price of those listed above, you are at $664. So after you add tax (I went with 9.25% since I live in L.A., CA, though it might actually be higher) which would be $61.42... you end up at $725.42

So I guess I was actually a little low with my $700 figure!

Yikes, I'd hate to see how much a fully loaded iPad is out the door.

You're (intentionally?) forgetting the $399 iPad 2 which is still offered and extremely popular.

I also like how you add on sales tax for the Apple products but not for the alternatives you're promoting. You truly are good at this.

 

[Raistlin]

Only the Surface Pro has stylus support, not the Surface.

For Surface yes, but Windows RT supports it. There will be other OEM's offering devices with it.

 

[eznark]

Sure, it worked for Windows Phone 7.

Windows Phone 7 was on home computers?

 

[lunarworks]

That has nothing to do with web. AppCache let's you cache HTML, jquery templates let's you use that to template JSON data. Local Storage can cache that data. Media queries lets you decide how best to display that data on a device. It's all supported in iOS and Android and has for some time.

The real reason you like the apps is because more time, money and effort is spent on them because of the app hype train or maybe the browser isn't as optimized as it could be so things can be sluggish. It's not doing something web can't. Either way, having a browser like IE10 and the hardware they do it's definitely not a problem for Win 8, RT or not.

Yes, there's no reason you can't write something like iPhoto, iMovie, or GarageBand for the web.

There's also no reason you can't hammer a nail with a wrench.

But anyway, back to the smaller apps, I like them because, as I said, they're custom-tailored for the device they're on. (Which is simple when you're dealing with a relatively homogeneous environment.)

 

[ThatObviousUser]

MG Siegler's off the wagon again.

 

[Cheebo]

You're (intentionally?) forgetting the $399 iPad 2 which is still offered and extremely popular.

I also like how you add on sales tax for the Apple products but not for the alternatives you're promoting. You truly are good at this.

And including the LTE pricing when there is no LTE winrt tablet. He is being a idiot troll, best to ignore them.

Wifi iPad pricing ranges from 400-700. 700 is the highest end available. Calling it the average iPad price is a lie basically. Especially comparing it to the wireless only windows tablets. Using LTE to cover his basis when he got caught in his trolling

 

[f0lken]

Sure, it worked for Windows Phone 7.

Diference is no one knows/cares of WP, AND no one was in that ecosystem.


Windows is everywhere, and people are already there

 

[Burger]

Wait so Ars are saying the RT version is 1366×768 ?

No wonder they want to call it the “ClearType HD Display”

 

[LukasTaves]

http://bluestacks.com/ looks interesting for android users..having access to every android app thru windows at launch could be cool

Holy shit.

This looks amazing. So going to try it tonight.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Sure, it worked for Windows Phone 7.

Are we comparing phones to laptops now?

And Bluestacks doesnt work well for me under Windows 8. Hold fast, my brethren. We'll have your Grindr and Scruff and Jack'd soon on Windows, but Bluestacks needs more time in the oven.

 

[Gary Whitta]

MG Siegler's off the wagon again.

I'm a big Apple fan and even I shake my head at this kind of entrenched dogmatic thinking. His big argument seems to be that the product is still, at the end of the day, a Windows PC. As if nobody wants those.

 

[Somnid]

Yes, there's no reason you can't write something like iPhoto, iMovie, or GarageBand for the web.

There's also no reason you can't hammer a nail with a wrench.

But anyway, back to the smaller apps, I like them because, as I said, they're custom-tailored for the device they're on. (Which is simple when you're dealing with a relatively homogeneous environment.)

IE10 supports BlobBuilder so technically you can. And most mobile devs target iPhone and iPad first then the rest.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Entry-level iPad is $399

According to some, that iPad is irrelevant because it doesn't have Retina.

 

[eznark]

I'm a big Apple fan and even I shake my head at this kind of entrenched dogmatic thinking. His big argument seems to be that the product is still, at the end of the day, a Windows PC. As if nobody wants those.

That optional, detachable keyboard is going to be such a burden.

Guy is a clown.

 

[ari]

Holy shit.

This looks amazing. So going to try it tonight.

that is actually very cool.

MG Siegler's off the wagon again.

lol

 

[Tobor]

Are we comparing phones to laptops now?

These are tablets, and yes, I'm comparing them.

 

[lunarworks]

IE10 supports BlobBuilder so technically you can. And most mobile devs target iPhone and iPad first then the rest.

That's why i said "there's no reason you can't".

But if you're going to go to that effort, why not just write native code? Then you get access to all the APIs available.

I'm a big Apple fan and even I shake my head at this kind of entrenched dogmatic thinking. His big argument seems to be that the product is still, at the end of the day, a Windows PC. As if nobody wants those.

Well, I'd say the average individual isn't enamoured with Windows.

It's like the average person isn't enthusiastic about Walmart. They just shop there because it's cheap, familliar, and nearby.

 

[eznark]

These are tablets, and yes, I'm comparing them.

You're assuming that the launch of Windows 8 will be the equivalent of the Windows Phone 7 launch. I mean, that's fine and all but it's also ludicrous.

These tablets will have the big feature (Metro) that Windows is going to be pimping in commercial after commercial. Saying this will fail because a splinter mobile OS has to this point failed is a hell of a stretch.

 

[noah111]

What is a 'true tablet'? And why is 4:3 a no brainer for it? The UI plays a huge part in which is 'better'.

A 'true tablet' is something you hold in your hands, touch, and use in multiple orientations across multiple occasions or tasks. Not something that's going to on a desk most of the time.

Just my opinion, obviously, but 4:3 is a no brainer for a multiple-orientated device, i.e. a tablet.

 

[ari]

is the ipad 2 still worth getting?...i mean, is it still relevant with ios6 and such coming out? I notice that apple like to drown the older tech out of its catalog.

 

[Bomber Bob]

MG Siegler's off the wagon again.

Who is this guy and why he wrote such a terrible analysis?

 

[Tobor]

You're assuming that the launch of Windows 8 will be the equivalent of Windows Phone 7. I mean, that's fine and all but it's also ludicrous.

These tablets will have the big feature (Metro) that Windows is going to be pimping in commercial after commercial. Saying this will fail because a splinter mobile OS has to this point failed is a hell of a stretch.

I didn't say it would play out the same, I'm saying that "staying with Windows" as you called it hasn't paid off as a sales tactic.

 

[eznark]

I didn't say it would play out the same, I'm saying that "staying with Windows" as you called it hasn't paid off as a sales tactic.

I said staying with the OS they have on their Dell at home. Windows Phone 7 was not on any home PC's.

 

[injurai]

god that looks aweful... that better have perfect service.

 

[bloodydrake]

Are we comparing phones to laptops now?

And Bluestacks doesnt work well for me under Windows 8. Hold fast, my brethren. We'll have your Grindr and Scruff and Jack'd soon on Windows, but Bluestacks needs more time in the oven.

well its Beta..i've tried the demo on windows 7 seems to work fine..its suppose to be for windows 8..when windows 8 is released..so its got afew months..

 

[rozay]

um, i didn't state i would pay 1K on anything, if the surface is around the same price of an ipad...i wouldn't have an excuse to pick one up....1000 for the basic would be retarded.

the "basic one" has a closed, app driven OS.

I don't think we should discount the possibility that 3G/LTE versions of these will be available at launch, they may simply not have finalized the pricing and carriers. The less SKUs the better though.

 

[JaggedSac]

MG Siegler's off the wagon again.

Someone is salty.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Are we comparing phones to laptops now?

Forgive Tobor, he's been trained to think that a tablet should just be a giant phone. =)

 

[Burger]

I'm a big Apple fan and even I shake my head at this kind of entrenched dogmatic thinking. His big argument seems to be that the product is still, at the end of the day, a Windows PC. As if nobody wants those.

I think the main point is you are putting two VERY different products under the same product name. Surface.

Imagine if there were two iPads, one ran iPad/iPhone apps, the other ran OS X apps, but still had the iOS springboard, except for sometimes when it didn't and had the standard desktop instead and cost twice as much.

Trying to communicate those differences to consumers will be a MAJOR challenge for Microsoft I think.

 

[ari]

nvmind

 

[VanMardigan]

A 'true tablet' is something you hold in your hands, touch, and use in multiple orientations across multiple occasions or tasks. Not something that's going to on a desk most of the time.

Just my opinion, obviously, but 4:3 is a no brainer for a multiple-orientated device, i.e. a tablet.

So the Surface is a tablet too then? Ok. Unless you think that Windows 8 only works in landscape orientation. Which would be inaccurate.

Edit: burger, in your example, you forgot to mention that the expensive one not only has the springboard, but runs the IOS apps as well.

 

[eznark]

I think the main point is you are putting two VERY different products under the same product name. Surface.

Imagine if there were two iPads, one ran iPad/iPhone apps, the other ran OS X apps, but still had the iOS springboard, except for sometimes when it didn't and had the standard desktop instead and cost twice as much.

Trying to communicate those differences to consumers will be a MAJOR challenge for Microsoft I think.

Yeah, and that is going to be a problem with Windows in general going forward as some devices will be ARM based Metro only and some will be Metro wrapped full Windows 7 (essentially) machines.

You'd hope they have some idea how they are going to educate the consumer.

 

[Damon Bennet]

A 'true tablet' is something you hold in your hands, touch, and use in multiple orientations across multiple occasions or tasks. Not something that's going to on a desk most of the time.

Just my opinion, obviously, but 4:3 is a no brainer for a multiple-orientated device, i.e. a tablet.

Uh, windows 8 can be hold in your hands in multiple orientations across multiple occasions or tasks.

that does not look too shabby.

thing is, if you want to you CAN use it on a desk, you CAN use office and you CAN use it as a desktop replacement.

so you can do everything you say a "real" tablet does. and much more. and at the same time you have additional horizontal space for side-by-side multitasking in metro apps. added space, added functionality.

 

[Hoo-doo]

nvmind

He's talking about Surface RT, not the iPad 2.

And yes, it's well worth purchasing.

 

[Somnid]

That's why i said "there's no reason you can't".

But if you're going to go to that effort, why not just write native code? Then you get access to all the APIs available.

Because your code works on any device. If you're sinking a ton of effort into a tool why tie it to one device and require a whole new code base if you wanted to port it? You don't need native APIs if you get the same result without them. It's also faster and easier to develop in a higher level language. Most popular apps aren't doing scientific number crunching or anything where that would yield great improvement.

 

[derFeef]

MG Siegler's off the wagon again.

Starting from nothing, the app situation on these devices was already going to be a sad story. This bifurcation of the line is a recipe for disaster.

It's like he does not even understand it.

 

[Gary Whitta]

I think the main point is you are putting two VERY different products under the same product name. Surface.

Imagine if there were two iPads, one ran iPad/iPhone apps, the other ran OS X apps, but still had the iOS springboard, except for sometimes when it didn't and had the standard desktop instead and cost twice as much.

Trying to communicate those differences to consumers will be a MAJOR challenge for Microsoft I think.

Absolutely, this will be the challenge, marketing. MS has a lot of educating the public to do and I wish I had more confidence in the ability of their marketing department to do it. There is a strong possibility of consumer confusion. Wouldn't be the first time a good MS product has been torpedoed by inept marketing.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

That optional, detachable keyboard is going to be such a burden.

Guy is a clown.

guy is a clown, but once you switch over to the standard desktop OS, touch/stylus input will suck. I expect it to be as unenjoyable an experience as it is on my current TabletPC running Win 7.

So yes, when you switch to the regular desktop, it's going to be shit without a regular kb&m. whether that is inherently a bad thing or not is a matter of debate and opinion.

is the ipad 2 still worth getting?...i mean, is it still relevant with ios6 and such coming out? I notice that apple like to drown the older tech out of its catalog.

iOS 6 will be immediately available for iPad 2 at launch.

Absolutely, this will be the challenge, marketing. MS has a lot of educating the public to do and I wish I had more confidence in the ability of their marketing department to do it. There is a strong possibility of consumer confusion. Wouldn't be the first time a good MS product has been torpedoed by inept marketing.

also my concern. the naming convention--as if they were simply different versions of Windows--was a huge problem yesterday, and this forum is full of techically-savvy people.

I'd have much preferred an entirely different name for the two lines.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I think the main point is you are putting two VERY different products under the same product name. Surface.

Imagine if there were two iPads, one ran iPad/iPhone apps, the other ran OS X apps, but still had the iOS springboard, except for sometimes when it didn't and had the standard desktop instead and cost twice as much.

Trying to communicate those differences to consumers will be a MAJOR challenge for Microsoft I think.

I don't think it's hard, but it's also something easy to screw up. A simple Surface is Metro. A Surface Pro is Metro plus backwards compatible with all your Windows apps. It's an easy message to convey.

 

[eznark]

Absolutely, this will be the challenge, marketing. MS has a lot of educating the public to do and I wish I had more confidence in the ability of their marketing department to do it. There is a strong possibility of consumer confusion. Wouldn't be the first time a good MS product has been torpedoed by inept marketing.

That's where I think the strong business adoption will be key. Enterprise adoption will give them some breathing room and product cash flow to take the time to properly educate the public and iterate on the hardware.

 

[Tobor]

I said staying with the OS they have on their Dell at home. Windows Phone 7 was not on any home PC's.

Windows RT is not on any home PC's either. None of the consumers existing Windows applications will work. In that regard, it's fairly similar to WP7, it's a new ecosystem.

 

[noah111]

So the Surface is a tablet too then? Ok. Unless you think that Windows 8 only works in landscape orientation. Which would be inaccurate.

I was talking about tablets in general, and holy hell is 16:9 atrocious in anything but landscape for tablets. That pic Damon posted proves that point.

But regardless, the Surface in general looks good, I was simply talking about 4:3 specifically. Still don't see this as a game changer, though.

 

[VanMardigan]

So yes, when you switch to the regular desktop, it's going to be shit without a regular kb&m. whether that is inherently a bad thing or not is a matter of debate

Why did the user exit the metro environment in your example if he's not going to be using kb/m?

 

[ari]

He's talking about Surface RT, not the iPad 2.

And yes, it's well worth purchasing.

this what was killing me over the last month, the ipad 2 looks good with that price. but with 100 dollars more i can get the 16 gb with retina for glorious infinity blade 2 on that screen...but i just don't know

iOS 6 will be immediately available for iPad 2 at launch.

i am aware of that...what i don't like is that the ipad 2 wont have all that can be offered for 100 dollars more, like siri and other stuff...i'll just wait.