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[lunarworks]

Because your code works on any device. If you're sinking a ton of effort into a tool why tie it to one device and require a whole new code base if you wanted to port it? You don't need native APIs if you get the same result without them. It's also faster and easier to develop in a higher level language. Most popular apps aren't doing scientific number crunching or anything where that would yield great improvement.

So by that reasoning why don't we write all applications on Windows, Mac, and Linux for the web?

I know for sure I'd love to use Photoshop through my browser! (/sarcasm)

The only platform where writing for the web is the smartest idea would be Android, which is fragmented to hell. With iOS, and possibly Windows RT, you're aiming at a supposedly stable and well-defined platform.

 

[ThatObviousUser]

Who is this guy and why he wrote such a terrible analysis?

He's basically John Gruber except even crazier and more fanatical, used to work at TechCrunch and post articles like that on the front page all the time.

 

[Windu]

Windows RT is not on any home PC's either. None of the consumers existing Windows applications will work. In that regard, it's fairly similar to WP7, it's a new ecosystem.

a new ecosystem backed by at least 200 million pcs. so no its not similar at all. not to mention wp7 is windows ce which is limited in terms of hardware support etc... and then of course no carriers to deal with.

 

[JaggedSac]

These here will run only new Windows apps, these here will run the new ones, and the old ones.

Done.

 

[eznark]

Windows RT is not on any home PC's either. None of the consumers existing Windows applications will work. In that regard, it's fairly similar to WP7, it's a new ecosystem.

It will be, essentially, by the time this rolls out correct? It's my understanding that RT will be the Windows for ARM, right? Additionally, the wrapper (which goes a long way in terms of comfort and consumer ease of use) will be identical to Windows 8 machines sitting on the floor of Best Buy.

 

[f0lken]

I think the main point is you are putting two VERY different products under the same product name. Surface.

Imagine if there were two iPads, one ran iPad/iPhone apps, the other ran OS X apps, but still had the iOS springboard, except for sometimes when it didn't and had the standard desktop instead and cost twice as much.

Trying to communicate those differences to consumers will be a MAJOR challenge for Microsoft I think.

I don't really think that would be that big of a problem, sure the average person is not a tech erudite, but they aren't cavemen, when they see "surface" and "surface pro" and ask for the diferences the sales rep only need to say that "surface" is only for office and windows 8 apps and the "pro" for ALL programs and apps.

That is an easy concept to understand.

 

[kehs]

I think the main point is you are putting two VERY different products under the same product name. Surface.

Imagine if there were two iPads, one ran iPad/iPhone apps, the other ran OS X apps, but still had the iOS springboard, except for sometimes when it didn't and had the standard desktop instead and cost twice as much.

Trying to communicate those differences to consumers will be a MAJOR challenge for Microsoft I think.

I think if the rest of the OEMS go along with the Pro moniker, they'll be able to get along fine when selling and differentiating the two levels.

 

[Tacitus_]

Windows RT is not on any home PC's either. None of the consumers existing Windows applications will work. In that regard, it's fairly similar to WP7, it's a new ecosystem.

But the Windows RT framework will be on new home PCs.

 

[venne]

I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with the oven/refrigerator concept.

 

[dLMN8R]

He's basically John Gruber except even crazier and more fanatical, used to work at TechCrunch and post articles like that on the front page all the time.

MG still writes articles for TechCrunch occasionally. Just look for the Apple-related posts where they're held up as the second-coming. Chances are he wrote it.

 

[Somnid]

So by that reasoning why don't we write all applications on Windows, Mac, and Linux for the web?

Indeed. This was the entire point of Chrome OS. At least in the desktop sense there is less common hardware that needs to be developed for (special GPGPU functions, input devices, feedback devices), and places where web standards get spotty or are underdeveloped (peer-to-peer), But anywhere where you are using the things available to most computers and you don't need extreme performance there's actually few good reasons not to.

Also Win 8 Apps can be built using web technologies. Except for a few special javascript APIs they are directly portable to native web.

 

[jagowar]

god that looks aweful... that better have perfect service.

Lack of 3g/lte is going to be a problem for me.... was really hoping to pay the cheaper tablet data plan and drop off smartphone. Now looking like I might go to a cheap ting phone and use it to tether.

Really do not want a big dongle sticking out of my tablet.... really kinda surprised they haven't been able to make those much smaller but they really don't need to since most things have radios builtin these days.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Why did the user exit the metro environment in your example if he's not going to be using kb/m?

1.) Because they wanted to use the familiar start button.

2.) To run an application that isn't listed in the metro version of Applications section.

3.) To scroll through various folders of files/photos/videos more quickly or in a more familiar interface.

4.) Advanced search

5.) Managing music on your MP3 player or in iTunes or some such.

6.) Copying files from one folder to another, or from one location to another

7.) ???


I haven't installed 8 on my TabletPC yet, so I'm sure there are a few other normal times when that would happen that I missed. Point is, none of the tasks listed above inherently presume a need for a kb&m but will need one for efficiency. Some of these tasks aren't hard with a stylus, but they're not quite as comfortable as a plain old kb&m either.

In reality, the adjustment to Metro isn't going to come swiftly and many people will want to just switch over to familiar Windows to accomplish familiar tasks faster than taking the time to learn an all-new way of doing things. When they do, they'll find a somewhat unpleasant experience if their kb&m isn't readily available.

but this is just to answer your question "why" coming from someone who has owned a TabletPC for 4 years.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

To me it's all about the interconnectivity with Windows 8 that will get me interested in this tablet.

If it's lacking that, it's pretty much hello iPad 4.

 

[alphaNoid]

But the Windows RT framework will be on new home PCs.

Exactly, so an x86/64 version of Windows 8 has the RT framework built right in. When you hit the Start button on Windows 8, it opens (takes you back to) Metro UI. Everything in Metro is running on the RT framework.

Basically the way I understand it, every single Windows 8 users is running the RT framework and is exposed to 100% of all WinRT applications available on the Windows Store. The difference between the Pro x86/64 versions of Windows 8 is they can run x86/64 applications in addition to WinRT, where Windows RT well... only runs WinRT apps.

As a developer you can create WinRT apps that are presented to 100% of the Windows 8 user base.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

To me it's all about the interconnectivity with Windows 8 that will get me interested in this tablet.

well it is Windows 8, so of course it has that. (on the Pro version)

just as long as you have a kb&m available for when you want to switch out of metro, you'll be very happy.

Exactly, so an x86/64 version of Windows 8 has the RT framework built right in. When you hit the Start button on Windows 8, it opens (takes you back to) Metro UI. Everything in Metro is running on the RT framework.

Basically the way I understand it, every single Windows 8 users is running the RT framework and is exposed to 100% of all WinRT applications available on the Windows Store. The difference between the Pro x86/64 versions of Windows 8 is they can run x86/64 applications in addition to WinRT, where Windows RT well... only runs WinRT apps.

As a developer you can create WinRT apps that are presented to 100% of the Windows 8 user base.

as I recall, those RT apps can ONLY be sold through the Microsoft Store, so a developer has to decide if they want to yield that level of control over their software or not, and if the RT-only market is going to be strong enough to make it their primary focus, rather than regular Windows.

I'm not sure this is a no-brainer.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The iPad can be a laptop replacement for a lot of people because all they do is surf, chat, play angry birds, read email, play with a few apps, and go on Facebook. In other words it doesn't need to have all the applications that a regular laptop has. This argument (which I feel is valid) is being made in this thread by the same people who will turn around and argue that WinRT is inadequate despite doing all those same basics as an iPad. The reason: it doesn't have all the iPad apps. It hurts my head sometimes when I read posts from some apple fanboys.

Yep.

I'm on my second iPad, my second iPhone, my first iPod touch, etc., but for a supertablet like this I'd much rather have Steam over all my IOS games, for example. I'd rather have full Office than the IOS alternatives.

 

[SUPREME1]

This device, much like the iPad, will rely heavily on salespeople to do the clarifying. Marketing isn't going to run ads/commercials differentiating the two to the point where it'll take away from the apeal of the basic version.

Salespeople will be the ones to educate those who are not tech savvy, informing them of the differences. What will make it easier on them is the price difference of the two. It'll be big enough that people will know one of them of fully featured and the other is isn't. Their names will also help in the area (Surface Pro and Surface _____).

I can also see salespeople using the iPad for comparison, since it's so familiar to everyone. As in,"the basic version runs an operating system similar to the iPad, where you have apps and whatnot etc etc, where the pro version has an operating system that is more robust and is actually the newest full version of Windows. This version will allow you to do everything the basic version does with the added capabilities that come with a full blown computer etc etc."




iPad is king, it'll likely not be overtaken in sales, ever. Not while tablets are the dominant form factor anyway. The only time it'll not be the dominant piece of hardware is when the next evolution of hardware arrives and everyone moves on to that.

It's the PS2 of tablets. Yeah, the XBox was a better piece of tech, but it was too late and too new.

But as we saw with the next gen of harware, things could change quick and someone else could take the lead. It'll be a while before that window appears though. So yeah, buy the tablet you like best and hope that we as consumers benefit from competition.

 

[alphaNoid]

as I recall, those RT apps can ONLY be sold through the Microsoft Store, so a developer has to decide if they want to yield that level of control over their software or not, and if the RT-only market is going to be strong enough to make it their primary focus, rather than regular Windows.

I'm not sure this is a no-brainer.

I believe you are correct, so in theory .. Yes it is its own ecosystem but will be fully exposed to all users. I suspect most 'larger' developers will have a regular application paralleled to a WinRT app. Smaller developers/companies may choose to decide for one over the other initially.

 

[szaromir]

Yep.

I'm on my second iPad, my second iPhone, my first iPod touch, etc., but for a supertablet like this I'd much rather have Steam over all my IOS games, for example. I'd rather have full Office than the IOS alternatives.

Except 95% of your Steam library might have terrible performance.

 

[alphaNoid]

Except 95% of your Steam library might have terrible performance.

Actually to be honest, 95% of most peoples Steam libraries will have great performance. The 5% are the games that require the beef.

 

[Azih]

These here will run only new Windows apps, these here will run the new ones, and the old ones.

Done.

More like, these ones are like iPads, these other ones are like iPads but also full computers.

 

[Doikor]

Except 95% of your Steam library might have terrible performance.

The pro should have a HD4000 which should run a good portion of games well enough. People have been getting 20-30fps in diablo 3 on high settings with the desktop version of it. I think they demoed it running crysis 2 at like 30fps too. Just need intel to fix the drivers so it works well on every game.

 

[injurai]

I believe you are correct, so in theory .. Yes it is its own ecosystem but will be fully exposed to all users. I suspect most 'larger' developers will have a regular application paralleled to a WinRT app. Smaller developers/companies may choose to decide for one over the other initially.

Basically you have the WinRT kernel right along side the Hybrid NT x86/x64 Kernel that will provide the same legacy support as always.

The pro should have a HD4000 which should run a good portion of games well enough. People have been getting 20-30fps in diablo 3 on high settings with the desktop version of it. I think they demoed it running crysis 2 at like 30fps too. Just need intel to fix the drivers so it works well on every game.

You realize that they individual find ways to cut corners in processing for individual games when doing benchmarks. It is extremely time intensive for nVidia to create the perfect drivers for everygame. Stability is more important than performance, but they use those initial benchmarks just to sell the chips.

 

[popeutlal]

So what's the eta on Win 8? And does Win 8 still have the registry system?

 

[szaromir]

Actually to be honest, 95% of most peoples Steam libraries will have great performance. The 5% are the games that require the beef.

Eh, I expect any game that's built around 360 and ported to PC to run like dog crap on it. Then you have some games that go significantly beyond that (eg. Withcer 2) and you're left with pre 2005 games or indie 2D titles that could run great on Surface Pro. Depending on what games you play it might be a significant share or it might be very little.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Actually to be honest, 95% of most peoples Steam libraries will have great performance. The 5% are the games that require the beef.

Very correct.

I expect very respectable from most Steam games. Big budget steam games are a different matter entirely. But most of Steam isn't comprised of big-budget games.

That said...I do wonder about a lot of the Steam talk. In the context of playing your existing library of Steam games on a tablet...well...make no mistake what we're really talking about is KB&M gaming. You're not going to be able to use your tablet without a KB&M and be able to play your games, you know? If gaming is a big part of what you want out of a computing device, there will be much better options at the $1000 price point that can get you a very thin laptop with a decidedly better gaming experience than a passively cooled i5 (and you just know this thing is downclocked for temperature control) can provide.

Anyway, I wonder what Metro games will be like? Windows versions of iOS/Android games?

Eh, I expect any game that's built around 360 and ported to PC to run like dog crap on it. Then you have some games that go significantly beyond that (eg. Withcer 2) and you're left with pre 2005 games or indie 2D titles that could run great on Surface Pro. Depending on what games you play it might be a significant share or it might be very little.

yea, I wouldn't expect any notable 3D games to run well given the presumable downclocks. and either way, there better be a wall socket nearby. 2D stuff like Limbo should be fine.

 

[Doikor]

Basically you have the WinRT kernel right along side the Hybrid NT x86/x64 Kernel that will provide the same legacy support as always.




You realize that they individual find ways to cut corners in processing for individual games when doing benchmarks. It is extremely time intensive for nVidia to create the perfect drivers for everygame. Stability is more important than performance, but they use those initial benchmarks just to sell the chips.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5878/...ation-realtime-igpu-clocks-on-ulv-vs-quadcore
Here are some benchmarks from the ivy bridge i5 ulv one (i5-3427U) sure it won't run crysis or battlefield 3 but it does seem to run all the more basic stuff just fine. 50fps in portal 2 or 30fps arkham city/skyrim? I'll take that.

edit: And all those tests seem to be run at medium or high detail so you might get a bit more fps out of them if you go down to low

 

[Jobiensis]

So what's the eta on Win 8? And does Win 8 still have the registry system?

Of course it still has the registry, why wouldn't it?

 

[coldfoot]

But the Windows RT framework will be on new home PCs.

And it's widely hated if first impressions for Win8 are anything to go by where many people are desparate to find hacks to get rid of metro.

 

[clav]

Of course it still has the registry, why wouldn't it?

Not sure for Windows RT (ARM) since Metro apps do not use registry.

Definitely yes for other versions for legacy app support.

 

[Jobiensis]

Not sure for Windows RT (ARM).

Definitely yes for legacy app support.

Wait, are they calling the ARM version Windows 8 too? I thought Windows RT was the name for the framework and the OS. So ARM tablets are Windows RT and x86/X64 machines are Windows 8 that includes Windows RT.

 

[Korey]

These here will run only new Windows apps, these here will run the new ones, and the old ones.

Done.

are you differentiating between programs and apps? Are all windows (traditionally known as) "programs" considered "apps" that will run on both from here on out?

If I don't understand this then the general population won't either

 

[f0lken]

And it's widely hated if first impressions for Win8 are anything to go by where many people are desparate to find hacks to get rid of metro.

That's like saying OSX is widely hated because people put windows on their macs

 

[venne]

Very correct.

I expect very respectable from most Steam games. Big budget steam games are a different matter entirely. But most of Steam isn't comprised of big-budget games.

That said...I do wonder about a lot of the Steam talk. In the context of playing your existing library of Steam games on a tablet...well...make no mistake what we're really talking about is KB&M gaming. You're not going to be able to use your tablet without a KB&M and be able to play your games, you know? If gaming is a big part of what you want out of a computing device, there will be much better options at the $1000 price point that can get you a very thin laptop with a decidedly better gaming experience than a passively cooled i5 (and you just know this thing is downclocked for temperature control) can provide.

Anyway, I wonder what Metro games will be like? Windows versions of iOS/Android games?



yea, I wouldn't expect any notable 3D games to run well given the presumable downclocks. and either way, there better be a wall socket nearby. 2D stuff like Limbo should be fine.

1) Plug in 360 controller
2) . . .
3) profit!

 

[coldfoot]

Not sure for Windows RT (ARM) since Metro apps do not use registry.

How does it not have registry if it has Full Office?

 

[injurai]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5878/...ation-realtime-igpu-clocks-on-ulv-vs-quadcore
Here are some benchmarks from the ivy bridge i5 ulv one (i5-3427U) sure it won't run crysis or battlefield 3 but it does seem to run all the more basic stuff just fine. 50fps in portal 2 or 30fps arkham city/skyrim? I'll take that.

edit: And all those tests seem to be run at medium or high detail so you might get a bit more fps out of them if you go down to low

it should be good, but anything under 42-ish FPS annoys me. We will see. But it should be great for all the older/indie games that are part of my backlog.

 

[Technosteve]

What does RT stand for?

 

[clav]

How does it not have registry if it has Full Office?

Office 2013 is compiled specifically for ARM, so Microsoft could have programmed it not to use the registry.

 

[injurai]

What does RT stand for?

runtime, specifically the ARM runtime APIs of WinRT, which is the enviroment that Metro UI runs in.

Windows RT exclusively uses WinRT as opposed to the full windows kernel.

 

[LyleLanley]

These here will run only new Windows apps, these here will run the new ones, and the old ones.

Done.

You don't think that'll be confusing to the average consumer? Especially when new windows 8 apps are being developed that won't work on the RT?

 

[DopeyFish]

What does RT stand for?

RunTime

 

[Marty Chinn]

it should be good, but anything under 42-ish FPS annoys me. We will see. But it should be great for all the older/indie games that are part of my backlog.

42 seems pretty random for a bare minimum =)

 

[injurai]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5878/...ation-realtime-igpu-clocks-on-ulv-vs-quadcore
Here are some benchmarks from the ivy bridge i5 ulv one (i5-3427U) sure it won't run crysis or battlefield 3 but it does seem to run all the more basic stuff just fine. 50fps in portal 2 or 30fps arkham city/skyrim? I'll take that.

edit: And all those tests seem to be run at medium or high detail so you might get a bit more fps out of them if you go down to low

oh and about those benchmarks, those are being run at a tiny resolution. The Pro is full 1080p. These games will look awful if not at full res. Don't expect to have a good time with AAA titles.

42 seems pretty random for a bare minimum =)

Generally mid 40's. 42 is twice the standard fps for movies though. Which still isn't enough for playing games. Its an important FPS mark in the industry so I used it.

 

[Doikor]

What does RT stand for?

WinRT = Windows Runtime

oh and about those benchmarks, those are being run at a tiny resolution. The Pro is full 1080p. These games will look awful if not at full res. Don't expect to have a good time with AAA titles.

Well i wasn't really hoping to play anything else then freeciv or some ugly looking 4x space game (endless space has been fun these past couple weeks)

 

[Marty Chinn]

Generally mid 40's. 42 is twice the standard fps for movies though. Which still isn't enough for playing games. Its an important FPS mark in the industry so I used it.

Isn't 2 x 24 = 48?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/5878/...ation-realtime-igpu-clocks-on-ulv-vs-quadcore
Here are some benchmarks from the ivy bridge i5 ulv one (i5-3427U) sure it won't run crysis or battlefield 3 but it does seem to run all the more basic stuff just fine. 50fps in portal 2 or 30fps arkham city/skyrim? I'll take that.

edit: And all those tests seem to be run at medium or high detail so you might get a bit more fps out of them if you go down to low

this device is passively cooled, so expect SIGNIFICANT downclocks from a normal ULV-based system. I'd expect no more than maybe 70% of the performance seen on a regular ULV laptop.

I was corrected on the same point yesterday. You will not see 50fps in portal 2 or 30fps in arkham city. shit ain't happenin.

1) Plug in 360 controller
2) . . .
3) profit!

you game on PC's right? then you know this isn't a solution for a lot of games.

 

[gcubed]

a new ecosystem backed by at least 200 million pcs. so no its not similar at all. not to mention wp7 is windows ce which is limited in terms of hardware support etc... and then of course no carriers to deal with.

is there a windows update that allows all 200 million PCs to magically and instantly get Win8 for free?

 

[injurai]

Isn't 2 x 24 = 48?

Oh thats right, they run at 24. Then yep 48-ish FPS is as low as I would want to go.

 

[szaromir]

1) Plug in 360 controller
2) . . .
3) profit!

Well if you have access to the 360 controller it means you're at home which means you can play on more suitable devices (x360, desktop PC etc.).

Surface Pro might be good for revisiting older games that rely on mouse only but haven't been ported to iOS yet, I don't know maybe Heroes of Might & Magic, Close Combat, p'n'c adventures like Gabriel Knight etc.