This really is my biggest concern about the game.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Guild Wars 2 Launch Date announced: August 28th, 2012
- Thread starter Mr. Luchador
- Start date
This really is my biggest concern about the game.
RepairmanJack
Member
....and it's official.
Looks like Massively jumped a little early, if ANet is putting this out there without even having the blog ready for it.
Looks like Massively jumped a little early, if ANet is putting this out there without even having the blog ready for it.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Just thought of this - the main difference between GW2 DE's and, say, WoW quests for me is the following:
In Standard MMOs, you find a quest, you accept it and the battle starts.
In GW2, you find a battle, accept it, and the quest starts.
Boom.
Awesome. On one hand i don't wanna spoil the areas for release, on the other i really wanna see The Grove and the Asura tutorial boss... hmmm.
This is a little odd, for two reasons:
1. Let's concede for the moment that the problem you're describing is permanent and unavoidable. That means that instead of classes being locked into a single one of three roles as in the original holy trinity, any combination of classes can be viable for any task as long as they're all ranged? Yeah, that is a preferable result to me
2. The problem is not permanent and unavoidable and I have every being that melee combat will be a perfectly viable way to play.
BUT SERIOUSLY GUYS ASURA AND SYLVARI
RepairmanJack
Member
I'm thinking the same. I think I will end up playing a Sylvari and see how their area is. Asura on release.
This is a little odd, for two reasons:
1. Let's concede for the moment that the problem you're describing is permanent and unavoidable. That means that instead of classes being locked into a single one of three roles as in the original holy trinity, any combination of classes can be viable for any task as long as they're all ranged? Yeah, that is a preferable result to me
2. The problem is not permanent and unavoidable and I have every being that melee combat will be a perfectly viable way to play.
BUT SERIOUSLY GUYS ASURA AND SYLVARI
I agree with this, especially the part
WHERE THE ASURA AND SYLVARI ARE FUCKIN PLAYABLE OMG1!1!1!1!
RepairmanJack
Member
Silphonica
Banned
day1
Same.... I want the Asura starting quest/area to be my "holy fuck a brand new MMO" experience, and I wouldn't mind checkng out the Pale Tree so that I know its secrets when I bring my little golemancer around the corner to visit.
Quadrophenic
Member
How does Left 4 Dead get away without having a trinity? Or was Coach the tank? I forget.
and the only time melee was worthless in pve was when you charged in and ignored your surroundings. I do wish there were more ways to punish people who auto-piloted ranged attacks just so that they will feel the same need to pay attention.
and the only time melee was worthless in pve was when you charged in and ignored your surroundings. I do wish there were more ways to punish people who auto-piloted ranged attacks just so that they will feel the same need to pay attention.
This really seems like the only amazing change GW2 brings to the MMO table.
MMOs that I have played in the past discourage grouping - XP may get reduced, loot stolen, mobs snatched, players not wanting others in their group at the risk of certain loot being fought over etc. The dynamic event scheme helps alleviate that as does having a corpse providing individual loot for each player.
As for other areas in the genre, I think there's some exaggeration at how revolutionary the game is.
The removal of NPCs as quest givers is great as it reduces time running around back and forth. But ultimately that's the bulk of the benefit. There are still "kill x amount of monsters", "feed y amount of cows", etc.
The "trinity" isn't dead - the lack of aggro management has taken tanks out of the equation and self-heals make smaller encounters possible. But certain classes do tasks better than other classes so the roles are still there and I'm sure will come about after release. How long until people are looking for Guardians for healing/support? And due to the lack of tanking, melee range is dangerous and players instead are more prone for the safer route of kiting.
The trinity is truly dead when players can pick a class they enjoy and play it, never feeling like they need to swap characters. Sure, all the classes can swap to other specializations but it appears that each class has a specialization that they are meant for. Elementalists dwarf everyone in AoE damage, Warriors are deadly up close, Guardians support, Engineers crowd control, etc. The original Guild Wars had henchmen you could just use to play the classes you didn't want to, and even the terrible Matrix Online allowed you to collect every skill and arrange them to create your own class on the fly so you only needed one character. But as long as classes are better at certain tasks than others, roles in MMOs are going nowhere.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
oh god oh god oh god
theMrCravens
Member
BWE3 will be the main beta for me to finally decide on race/class to play.
Going to run Asura/Sylvari area so many times...
Going to run Asura/Sylvari area so many times...
aramanKain
Member
So torn. Do I spoil the newness of the Sylvari (my declared main race) zone, getting a feel for it so I can make my way through the content more efficiently at release, or do I wait and keep it completely fresh and try out an Asura instead, which I'm fairly certain won't be my main? Never before has an MMO made me think such decisions so carefully.
RepairmanJack
Member
I think I am doing a Sylvari Engineer. No interest in Engineer, but maybe my mind will change with the new changes to the profession. Whatever they may be.
As I said, my preference would be to have a skill-based system like UO and EVE have. Hell, even the Elder Scrolls titles use a skill system, but for some reason I haven't quite figured out people want classes in MMOs even while being fine with the alternative in other RPGs. Is it really easier? I mean, you use something and you get better at it - how is this hard?
You described my fear with GW2, actually. That people will try to force at least a soft trinity into the game and ANet will appease them by hardening it over time.
I wish classes would be a thing of the past. I honestly think they're still around only to give people a feeling of uniqueness by establishing an identity, make it easier to balance pvp, and to give people a general idea of how gameplay works. (elementalists point at things and blast!) I remember playing City of Heroes and just wanting a mix of melee and ranged attacks. Instead it was one or the other, with only weakened alternatives offered as skills. (i.e. a "Scrapper" who had a weak ranged attack, meant only for pulling enemies)
Make a Blaster with Energy Melee. About as close as you're going to get.
theMrCravens
Member
Human, Norn and Charr areas will be so empty for that weekend.
That's what I did. So squishy.
This is a little odd, for two reasons:
1. Let's concede for the moment that the problem you're describing is permanent and unavoidable. That means that instead of classes being locked into a single one of three roles as in the original holy trinity, any combination of classes can be viable for any task as long as they're all ranged? Yeah, that is a preferable result to me
2. The problem is not permanent and unavoidable and I have every being that melee combat will be a perfectly viable way to play.
BUT SERIOUSLY GUYS ASURA AND SYLVARI
The problem is in GW2 agro management is non-existent as a result of removing tanks from the game. The way agro currently works is the mobs will attack the closest player, that's it. Which means if you decide to engage in melee the mobs will come at you instead of ranged. Not only that, because your so close, you have a smaller window to actively dodge attacks than a ranged character. What this all amounts to is people avoiding melee combat in PvE situations.
You can have multiple roles and still have the Trinity system. I don't understand why you believe it's one or the other. WoW does it with talent swaps, GW2 could do it with weapon/ trait swaps.
There is no way to control mobs currently then kiting them, which I fear is going to cause PvE encounters to be very similar (everybody hitting from ranged).
Anyways I'm not trying to advocate that GW2 has to have it. I'm just saying there are some flaws in their current system.
Warrior_Keoni
Member
Not sure what is up with people about choosing any particular race. Hooray for being able to play short Asura and plant people?
All the classes play the same with the exception of a few racial skills.
All the classes play the same with the exception of a few racial skills.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Yeah, I dunno. I guess people are all "OMG SMALL CUTE RACE!" Not my bag.
I know nothing about GW1 and pretty much just started looking into GW2. It looks like it could be pretty fun.
flyinpiranha
Member
My main reasoning behind liking classes is that when I play a single player RPG it's just that ... it's single player. I don't have a person to come help me and I need to be able to do ranged, AOE, melee, w/e the situation may call for. In an MMO I'm a puzzle piece, not the whole puzzle and this facilitates the need to group with others.
Of course you aren't going to perfect classes and their synergy, that may take decades of MMO's being made trying new things but I think it would really suck if you had a character that could just do 'anything and everything' if you leveled them up.
I know what you're saying, but I want my MMO experience and my single player experience to be different.
I also feel that with the options of weapons and such, that it really is kind of leaving it open to the player. I haven't had enough time with GW2 to really comment on that though.
I mean, classes are basically just being able to choose a skill tree anyway, you just start off with choosing the class instead of choosing a "tree" for your character.
This is the only thing that currently REALLY has me worried about some of the end-game quests and more difficult encounters. I just don't understand how melee isn't getting the short end of the stick with most of the PVE in this game.
People like variety. An MMO is all about how you can customize your character, it's why they make millions of dollars off of aesthetic stuff in shops. Plus what others have said about new cities, new zones, etc ...
How could you NOT want that kind of stuff in a huge open world game? Your comment reeks of trolling ... I mean seriously? "Who wants to see variety in an MMO?" LOL
That's what I did. So squishy.
True. But hitting Aim and Build Up going into a boss is so satisfying.
RepairmanJack
Member
How wouldn't you? You would be fine with one zone and one race? The two races bring new zones, new cities, and new events it's not all about just the race.
Though for me it is. Asura>all
Melee works fine, it requires more attention though. And I played a melee only Warrior up to lvl 32, PVE 95% of the time.
Using knockdown, dodge, cripple and stun abilities, you're more than capable of moving into and out of range. Sure, it takes more movement/action than a ranged character and needs a little balancing, but the system itself is not broken.
Quadrophenic
Member
You can stay in and melee elite mobs for more than one attack, you just have to pay attention to see who he's attacking (easiest way is to stay behind him) and when he's going to do a big aoe move (which all have tells). If he focuses his attacks on you, its best to back off/knockdown/stun to keep yourself alive.
It usually only thier special attacks which will one-shot you, even with elites you should be able to take a few of thier normal attacks without issue.
It usually only thier special attacks which will one-shot you, even with elites you should be able to take a few of thier normal attacks without issue.
I never used a ranged weapon at all. Use Sword/Mace w/ Hammer for secondary. Jump in with sword, cripple, bleed, drop armor with mace, knockdown with mace, switch to Hammer, use the skills for hammer, knockback if needed, and then I still have a knockdown with Hammer if I get low on hp and dodge out.
The only time it became a problem was with the giant swamp boss. Trust me, I'm not saying it's perfect, it needs to be balanced, but it was not impossible in any way.
Yep.
Classes aren't enabling anything. They are limiting. That's what they do. They're there to make choices easier for people who, when confronted with a massive range of options, find their brains freeze. But they artificially trap you into a certain way of playing and make you especially vulnerable to developer bias or kneejerk nerfing. In a skill-based system, you just train with something else and move on.
EDIT: I've traditionally preferred ranged characters in MMOs, so the viability for melee classes to use ranged weaponry actually means I'm more willing to play with them. Frankly, my Warrior performed well even when I stuck in melee so long as I paid attention and ducked out when things got hot. That said, I did habitually switch to a ranged weapon after moving out. But I'd go back into melee whenever I felt a bit more solid.
Melee could use a bit of help, but it's not useless.
Also, I'd be shocked if there aren't enemies later into the game that will specifically target ranged folks and rip them in half if they aren't paying attention.
Quadrophenic
Member
Though, I will add, I never fought the swamp boss. And some of the videos of the even bigger bosses (like i think it was the Shatterer? Or Something the Sunless) confuses me on how melee works against them. I guess you whack at thier toes or something (which coming from someone who played as a hobbit-tank in lotro is basically all i did)?
I would be shocked as well if there weren't. I just kept hoping to see it, and didn't see it (or notice it was happening). There was one ice boss who would do a dashing attack which would kill people in his path, but I am unsure if he was targetting a ranged character or not.
I would be shocked as well if there weren't. I just kept hoping to see it, and didn't see it (or notice it was happening). There was one ice boss who would do a dashing attack which would kill people in his path, but I am unsure if he was targetting a ranged character or not.
Warrior_Keoni
Member
I never said I was fine with one zone and one race. Don't put words in my mouth. I just don't understand the sudden hype and excitement.
We're going to get all the races come launch time and will be fun to discover their lore and stuff. But I don't agree that any one race is better than the other. I'm not here to judge people on what race they're going to play.
flyinpiranha
Member
How is that any different from choosing a different character to play?
Start as Generic Person ->Melee ->build up skillset
Start choosing Warrior ->melee->build up skillset
I don't see the difference in that it's just adding one more level to your decision. Take a game like Skyrim, sure, you have skill points but you can only go so far with a few of the trees. You start off, you go full Illusion/Destruction or w/e but you can't just switch and go full Archery/Two handed, or w/e the limits were because you stopped gaining points after a while and that "unlimited option" became very limited.
Most people basically chose before they created the character. You have people saying I have a couple characters "Mage/Restoration" and "Sneak/Theif" or something like that. All classes do is define what you're going for before you start going for it.
It may limit choices but it's just an extra level of decision either way. If you want to be a caster go with a caster class in the beginning. It's basically the same as just starting to choose the destruction/illusion trees in Skyrim.
I completely disagree with your "brain freeze" comment. It's just a different way to do things, they aren't doing it because people are stupid. The same people playing GW2 are probably playing Skyrim just fine.
I guess I can see why you'd like to have a completely open tree, but I like the fact that the class system takes away all the worthless shit I don't need to look at if I want to focus on a certain type of gameplay.
I get what you guys are saying. You can melee selectively, but this is the point. If your the only melee, he's attacking you. Then you really can't melee can you? You have to back out until he focuses somebody else. For clarification I'm talking about elite mobs and groups. Not normal 1-2 mobs, you can handle them fine.
To be fair we haven't seen much of how they're handling the dungeons, but I'm not optimistic.
And I haven't touched on how they're broken in WvW.
To be fair we haven't seen much of how they're handling the dungeons, but I'm not optimistic.
And I haven't touched on how they're broken in WvW.
Kos Luftar
Member
Looking forward to starting a Sylvario Warrior and 100% the beginning areas of Sylvari and Asura over the BETA weekend. I hope I will find the time, but I doubt it. I have no problem with redoing these parts again when game comes out. I know it will be fun even if I saw it before. Not touching the personal stories at all.
RepairmanJack
Member
Wait....whos judging on what races people play?! I think most of the race talk about which ones are better are just joking.(including mine)
I guess I missed something, I was just saying there was more to the excitement than just the race.
Warrior_Keoni
Member
Gaf is serious business.
Anyway, I find the races to be the most tragic would have to be the Forgotten and the Dwarves. I have no idea if surviving Forgotten made it to GW2, and the dwarves are most likely dwindled to the point of fighting destroyers and having only a few rare ones running about.
SnakeswithLasers
Member
Sounds awesome, thanks so much for the info!