Support NeoGAF

[Weltall Zero]

Ummm you can die to a zerg while defending a keep surrounded by several dozen of your allies. If they have the numbers to focus you down, you will die and get finished.

And that is good. Keeps should be conquerable. If there's a strike force against it large or good enough to kill someone in the ramparts (kill, not down), they deserve to put a defender out of commission for a while. The alternative is leaving you dead for a few minutes, would you really prefer that?

I've been doing it for years and nobody has complained. Of course, I don't think anybody has bothered to read them either.

You're perfectly aware that they're one of the reasons I and other people keep coming to read the thread several times a day. Stop fishing for compliments, you self-deprecating... um... nice person! >_>

I'm the same way, I usually don't hang out on GAF all day waiting to post replies, so there's usually a day's worth of posts I want to reply to. The only thing I would watch out for is answering questions that have already been answered. I generally hit the (+) button next to quote and then reply all at once. If something has been answered, I can just delete that part from my post.

Oh god. I had no clue that the (+) button did anything different than clicking "quote". THAT. IS. AWESOME! You just saved me cumulative hours of clicking reply then copypasting the text into a .txt file over and over. Thanks!

And yes, I've already had to delete a couple of answers to questions that were already answered (I left a couple where I believed my answer could help a bit further). Should be much easier with the (+) buttons, since I have to read all the posts before starting to reply.

I'd buy it retail which saves me the bandwidth. Plus pretty boxes! Guess I'll have to settle with checking videos or something.

I'm actually half-regretful of having bought the digital version, after seeing the pretty cover. Still, I might buy a second one on Amazon (which are cheaper for some reason) for my GF.

Now that the subject is about WvW tactics, i remembered that i found this WvW guide in reddit which i found very informative and interesting:

Melee in Keep Assaults: Reinforcement Prevention

http://teamlegacy.net/_/gw2/melee-in-keep-assaults-reinforcement-prevention-r526

And some Siege weapon tactics:

Ballista Tactics
Arrow Cart Tactics
Catapult Tactics

Thanks a lot! Reading and watching them as soon as I post this.

Holy... shit

Holy bits indeed! This video also made me remember that Fall of Cybertron is released a mere four days before GW2 early access... AWFUL TIMING. FOC and GW2 are the ONLY games I'm interested in from ALL of 2012 (now that Dragon Crown slipped to 2013)! Ah well, that'll make it easier to wait for it to go bomba on Steam... perhaps. :/

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Not sure if I want to play in the next BWE. My plan was to wait till the game was released with all the bugs fixed/optimization/etc.

But it does sound tempting.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Hold the phones. There are combo-attacks?

Is this anything like renkei in FFXI? =O

 

[flyinpiranha]

You don't need tactics to win WvW. You just need numbers, and that's a flaw of any MMO pvp.

Hasn't this completely been proven wrong with groups of 5-8 holding off groups of 20 people just zerging and trying to attack a gate or something? I watched a pretty epic PVP video from the first beta event and basically showed a group that knew what they were doing pushing back superior numbers because they weren't using tactics at all.

Plus, hasn't it been a total of 4 days that people have been able to play WvW? I'd say a VAST majority were mostly testing out their character. I imagine it will be a lot more unified with what to do and where to do it once the game really starts picking up.

I have the same doubts as you with WvW but almost everything I've read/watched has been really making me leaning towards what I wanted out of WAR and won't end up being the zergfest that WoW is.

 

[Retro]

Hold the phones. There are combo-attacks?

Is this anything like renkei in FFXI? =O

Never played FFXI. Cross-profession combos are pretty simple stuff; some skills create a field which other skills can interact with. For example, an Elementalist creates a wall of fire and a Ranger shoots arrows through it; the arrows catch fire and cause burning damage.

List is here;

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

 

[Hawkian]

Not sure if I want to play in the next BWE. My plan was to wait till the game was released with all the bugs fixed/optimization/etc.

But it does sound tempting.

You could always use it to do ridiculous/nonsensical things you have no desire to do when the real game comes out. I've made characters of race/class combos I have no interest in, and done an embarassing amount of climbing up tall areas just to see if I could/taking pictures of whales

 

[Ferrio]

Hold the phones. There are combo-attacks?

Is this anything like renkei in FFXI? =O

Not really. Combos are just when two skills interact. Like say a mage lays down a wall of fire. Then certain projectile attacks that shoot through it will gain fire damage.

Stuff like that.

 

[Retro]

Hasn't this completely been proven wrong with groups of 5-8 holding off groups of 20 people just zerging and trying to attack a gate or something?

Um, the first BWE me and a bunch of GAFers drove red off the map completely with an arrow cart. It was 5 vs. a dozen or so. In BWE2 we were defending a tower against a massive zerg; three people on the inside manning the cannon, oil and arrow cart, and one person (me) on a ridge across from the fort dropping arrows down on anyone that came close. It was easily 4 v. 20.

Proper placement of siege equipment is going to be essential to success, much more than any zerg could ever be. It's just a problem because everyone is low level and has no gold to buy them with, and if they do people aren't organized enough to get supply where it needs to go.

Biggest problems with WvW:
- People stealing supply from a fortress, preventing upgrades. Assholes.
- People getting wrapped up in zerg bloodlust and thinking "Hey, we took a tower, let's go for the KEEP NOW!" Morons.
- Reluctance to spend and/or drop siege equipment when it would be highly beneficial.
- Bugs and glitches.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Not really. Combos are just when two skills interact. Like say a mage lays down a wall of fire. Then certain projectile attacks that shoot through it will gain fire damage.

Stuff like that.

Oh, well, that's still cool. But I did enjoy skill chains. These are more like skill handshakes.

 

[Einbroch]

Oh, well, that's still cool. But I did enjoy skill chains. These are more like skill handshakes.

Skill chains in FFXI were one of the best parts of the game and wish MMOs would do more things like it. That kind of teamwork and seeing the payoff (other than an enemy falling) is so satisfying.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Yeah, I'm not sure why I got the email. I guess it's nice to know it's extra official now?

So this BWE is going to be my very first. Any kindly gaffers want to go through some PvE with me? I'll be available to play the entire time (except friday night, when I will be watching TDKR)

wait what mail. I didn't get no mail. What is going on!

 

[kayos90]

wait what mail. I didn't get no mail. What is going on!

Just a notice saying the has a beta next weekend. That's all.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Skill chains in FFXI were one of the best parts of the game and wish MMOs would do more things like it. That kind of teamwork and seeing the payoff (other than an enemy falling) is so satisfying.

Skill chains were great. The only thing that made the "stand in one place and grind palette shifted crabs for six hours to get 1/3 of a level" actually feel fun.

I still cannot grasp why more games don't use this system. oh well.

 

[Vinci]

Hasn't this completely been proven wrong with groups of 5-8 holding off groups of 20 people just zerging and trying to attack a gate or something? I watched a pretty epic PVP video from the first beta event and basically showed a group that knew what they were doing pushing back superior numbers because they weren't using tactics at all.

There were some videos that Jira linked to in the old thread in which a group of five or six basically just ran around and picked fights with groups of a couple dozen. Remarkably I would say that they won as often as they lost, and they were not even using siege weapons. Just being smart, working together really well.

So yes, anyone who whines about the Zerg as if it's indomitable or even mentions beating on gates (why are you hitting those damn things when they get focus fired so hard by defenders?) just loses all sympathy.

 

[Jira]

There were some videos that Jira linked to in the old thread in which a group of five or six basically just ran around and picked fights with groups of a couple dozen. Remarkably I would say that they won as often as they lost, and they were not even using siege weapons. Just being smart, working together really well.

So yes, anyone who whines about the Zerg as if it's indomitable or even mentions beating on gates (why are you hitting those damn things when they get focus fired so hard by defenders?) just loses all sympathy.

Yeah those 5 or so guys were tearing zergs apart, it was amazing to watch.

 

[Arken2121]

Yeah those 5 or so guys were tearing zergs apart, it was amazing to watch.

Usually just a matter of keeping each other alive. Can't tell you how many times I've seen people step over their teammates bodies while they're in their downed state. Two people will almost always beat one so why the hell wouldn't you want to keep your teammates up is beyond me.

 

[Vinci]

Usually just a matter of keeping each other alive. Can't tell you how many times I've seen people step over their teammates bodies while they're in their downed state. Two people will almost always beat one so why the hell wouldn't you want to keep your teammates up is beyond me.

I need to find those videos again, when I'm not on a smartphone, because I don't recall them getting downed very often. They were especially conscious of their surroundings and line of sight and of using bait to lure in over zealous zerglings.

That said, I am in total agreement with your statement about rezzing people.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Unrelated: Today I got my holiday approved, 27th to 31st of August.

Spoiler

Totally related!

 

[Arken2121]

I need to find those videos again, when I'm not on a smartphone, because I don't recall them getting downed very often. They were especially conscious of their surroundings and line of sight and of using bait to lure in over zealous zerglings.

That said, I am in total agreement with your statement about rezzing people.

That's just a simple way to fight, now if you're going against a smarter group, you'll have to take better action but just keeping your people up will save you a headache.

 

[Vinci]

That's just a simple way to fight, now if you're going against a smarter group, you'll have to take better action but just keeping your people up will save you a headache.

Yes, agreed. Though I rarely expect great intelligence from people in a Zerg. Being in one gives them an unrealistic sense of security, a feeling that they've entered easy mode and can allow others to direct things. Sheep.

...

Have I made my distaste for the Zerg clear as of yet?

 

[BattleMonkey]

You are also dealing with WvW scenarios where the zergs are full of people still learning the game or have no clue because of beta. Once people learn to play the game once it goes live, those zergs are going to be much more deadly, especially when they start becoming organized. Just because you label it a zerg, doesn't mean it's just random pug horde.

 

[Hawkian]

ZvZ

 

[Arken2121]

Yes, agreed. Though I rarely expect great intelligence from people in a Zerg. Being in one gives them an unrealistic sense of security, a feeling that they've entered easy mode and can allow others to direct things. Sheep.

...

Have I made my distaste for the Zerg clear as of yet?

Hahaha yeah. Well also which gives even a zerg no excuse is that when someone goes down, there's a small skull on your mini map that shows you! It's a no brainer even for an idiot just running with the zerg. It's not like you have to go actively looking for downed players, it's right there.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

I think there is plenty of evidence to the contrary, but if you hold this to be 100% true, I dont see much of the point in discussing this further.

I didn't see Henge of Denravi winning any WvW during BWE. If there's data on a server with less player WvW activity that won WvW, then I don't know about it.

And that is good. Keeps should be conquerable. If there's a strike force against it large or good enough to kill someone in the ramparts (kill, not down), they deserve to put a defender out of commission for a while. The alternative is leaving you dead for a few minutes, would you really prefer that?

Take a look at Planetside. You can spawn in the base, outside the base in mobile spawn points, spawn in towers near the base. You can even head back to the homebase and hart to any position on the map if the sphere of influence isn't locked.

And guess what... bases are taken over all the time.

The game doesn't have to arbitrarily remove defender's advantage through travel length or respawn timer. If the attackers are good at WvW, it will force the defending server to focus on other objectives.

Hasn't this completely been proven wrong with groups of 5-8 holding off groups of 20 people just zerging and trying to attack a gate or something? I watched a pretty epic PVP video from the first beta event and basically showed a group that knew what they were doing pushing back superior numbers because they weren't using tactics at all.

Plus, hasn't it been a total of 4 days that people have been able to play WvW? I'd say a VAST majority were mostly testing out their character. I imagine it will be a lot more unified with what to do and where to do it once the game really starts picking up.

I have the same doubts as you with WvW but almost everything I've read/watched has been really making me leaning towards what I wanted out of WAR and won't end up being the zergfest that WoW is.

I'm leaning more towards the new player thing. Though defending keep has advantages if you have all the siege equipment set up.

 

[Jira]

You are also dealing with WvW scenarios where the zergs are full of people still learning the game or have no clue because of beta. Once people learn to play the game once it goes live, those zergs are going to be much more deadly, especially when they start becoming organized. Just because you label it a zerg, doesn't mean it's just random pug horde.

A smart server will never run in a horde of players. 50 people split up into 5 groups is more effective and can cover more ground far more quickly than a giant group of 50 people. Denying supply will be one of the most important tactics in the game, 5 groups sent out to take 5 supply camps is a huge hindrance to your enemy and will bleed them dry to the point where they can no longer defend/repair/upgrade their structures. I've seen it first hand where a small group can beat a zerg that's 4-5 times larger on more than one occasion and it's because the smaller groups are more focused where as the zerg lacks coordination and communication. Now that's not to say a zerg can't communicate, but a single large group simply will not be as effective as the same amount of people split into smaller strike forces.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Take a look at Planetside. You can spawn in the base, outside the base in mobile spawn points, spawn in towers near the base. You can even head back to the homebase and hart to any position on the map if the sphere of influence isn't locked."

Planetside and RvR/WvW base capture mechanics are entirely different which is why what Planetside does works...for Planetside.


"The game doesn't have to arbitrarily remove defender's advantage through travel length or respawn timer. If the attackers are good at WvW, it will force the defending server to focus on other objectives."

The game isn't arbitrarily removing defender's advantage. What you're suggesting is actually removing the Attacker's benefits from being successful in fights.

 

[Vinci]

You are also dealing with WvW scenarios where the zergs are full of people still learning the game or have no clue because of beta. Once people learn to play the game once it goes live, those zergs are going to be much more deadly, especially when they start becoming organized. Just because you label it a zerg, doesn't mean it's just random pug horde.

True, but that concept cuts both ways. Yes, members of the Zerg will learn the game better and improve as a whole - but we've already seen that skilled skirmish groups can beat the numbers advantage given enough smarts and sophistication. A Zerg by its very nature lacks a certain flexibility, and this is both a benefit and a demerit.

I'm not suggesting that WvW is all sunshine and rainbows, but anyone painting it as nothing more than Zerg Zerg Zerg is being unrealistic.

EDIT: I'm implying here what Jira said in his post above.

 

[Quadrophenic]

I didn't see Henge of Denravi winning any WvW during BWE. If there's data on a server with less player WvW activity that won WvW, then I don't know about it.

The BWE winnings are going to be skewered towards servers which posses pre-established guilds because those servers have people who already know how to work together.

Your original statement was that all MMO PVP is Zerg V Zerg, and is an inherit flaw in PvP.

 

[Deadly]

Fair enough. I know Arken2121 was trying to set up a HD stream during the last BWE, so watch the thread and maybe someone will be streaming. At the very least you can watch it happening in real time.

Thanks I'll have to check that out

yeah. only problem : retail boxes are empty. there is just a code in them. ( i have a retail box btw ^^")

What you serious? Isn't that just the pre-purchase version that's like that? I'd assume the actual retail will include discs, manual etc.

 

[BrettWeir]

guys guys my spot in the BWE is reserved

bet you're jealous

I am. QQ. /stupid vacation!

 

[LumpOfCole]

So August 25th, it is confirmed that I am making my dudes on Gate of Madness then? I must roll with the GAF.

 

[Vinci]

Unless something unforeseen occurs, yes, Gate of Madness.

 

[Hawkian]

some funny stuff to be seen on facebook at the moment

 

[Vinci]

Poor Zhaitan.

 

[Felix Lighter]

You can get a free 20% off voucher from Green Man Gaming right now so I decided to go ahead and take advantage of the offer and preordered the game.

 

[XEROWUN]

i'm trying to understand what you guys are saying, "WvW"? i understand there will be server vs server battle grounds, but by the sound of things, are you guys telling me there will be castle sieges like lineage 2 and DAoC?

 

[Jira]

i'm trying to understand what you guys are saying, "WvW"? i understand there will be server vs server battle grounds, but by the sound of things, are you guys telling me there will be castle sieges like lineage 2 and DAoC?

Yep. Read this:

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-ferguson-on-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world

The guys in charge of WvW worked on DAOC back in the day and it is GOOD. So good that it could be its own game.

 

[Hawkian]

i'm trying to understand what you guys are saying, "WvW"? i understand there will be server vs server battle grounds, but by the sound of things, are you guys telling me there will be castle sieges like lineage 2 and DAoC?

It is more similar to what I've heard of RvR in DAoC being like than anything else.

There are three servers fighting each other in a huuuuuuuge interconnected map consisting of one homeland per server and a central Eternal Battlegrounds map.

 

[Retro]

You can get a free 20% off voucher from Green Man Gaming right now so I decided to go ahead and take advantage of the offer and preordered the game.

Welcome to the party. Register on the gw2 site and start your client download asap so you're good to go next friday.

i'm trying to understand what you guys are saying, "WvW"? i understand there will be server vs server battle grounds, but by the sound of things, are you guys telling me there will be castle sieges like lineage 2 and DAoC?

That's what we're telling you, yes. WvW is a two week long battle between three servers for control of keeps, forts, towers and supply camps spread out across four massive fronts. Siege weapons like battering rams, catapults, trebuchets and siege golems are used to tear down or reinforce fortifications.

Like Jira said, it could be a standalone game in itself. Then you get PvE for 80 levels, plus 8 dungeons (with two modes, one offering multiple wings and paths through the dungeon each time you visit) at launch. Then sPvP that plays like short deathmatches or can be setup for tournaments on a weekly monthly and yearly basis (players can create their own tournaments too).

And no subscription fees.

Now you know why we're so excited?

 

[Vinci]

Also a really good crafting system, hidden locations, jumping puzzles, vistas...

I was talking to a buddy the other night and it sort of struck me: For a game that hasn't even released yet, they have packed a ton of crap into this thing. I mean, c'mon, jumping puzzles...? Who prioritizes something like that for an MMO's launch?

 

[chiablo]

Yeah those 5 or so guys were tearing zergs apart, it was amazing to watch.

Anyone have a link to this mythical video?

 

[Jira]

Also a really good crafting system, hidden locations, jumping puzzles, vistas...

I was talking to a buddy the other night and it sort of struck me: For a game that hasn't even released yet, they have packed a ton of crap into this thing. I mean, c'mon, jumping puzzles...? Who prioritizes something like that for an MMO's launch?

It helps when they stick to their guns and are so efficient at designing that they have tons of time to put in other features that you wouldn't typically see at launch. Since this year has started they've added:

- Jumping Puzzles
- The Dark Room
- Mystic Forge
- Chests guarded by mobs
- Vistas

That doesn't even touch on all of the things they've improved and have since come into the game that we knew of, but weren't in yet until Beta. Also, who knows what else we'll get for BWE3. AND it doesn't even touch on stuff like treasure maps or explorer flags or the many other features we have no idea exist at this point.

Anyone have a link to this mythical video?

I'll try to find it, sec.

 

[Retro]

Also a really good crafting system, hidden locations, jumping puzzles, vistas...

... plus a full-length Personal Story that changes based on which Order you join and what choices you make, which affects who and what is inside your home instance.

.... plus de-leveling that allows you to experience all content at the appropriate level, the way it was meant to be seen.

.... plus a cash shop with all sorts of cool toys, boosters, pets and cosmetic items (including almost 400 dyes), all of which can be bought with cash or in-game gold. And on that subject, you can buy gold with cash directly through the trading post, meaning gold sellers won't get a foothold.

... plus "some big additions we’re extremely excited to show everyone, but marketing won’t let me say what those things are...yet."

Oh, and they said they want Guild and Player housing sometime after launch too.

And Colin Johansen personally coded a pokemon-esque mini-pet battle system called Polymock that is all but guaranteed to make an appearance in GW2.

And god knows what else I'm forgetting.

 

[Teknopathetic]

Easy on the PR regurgitation.

 

[Jira]

Found that WvW video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbRYEE1k-xk

 

[Valnen]

Easy on the PR regurgitation.

You seem quite determined to tear this game down.

Or at least people's excitement for it.

 

[BrettWeir]

Yeah those 5 or so guys were tearing zergs apart, it was amazing to watch.

Bah, beaten.

Thanks for posting the link!

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Planetside and RvR/WvW base capture mechanics are entirely different which is why what Planetside does works...for Planetside.

The game isn't arbitrarily removing defender's advantage. What you're suggesting is actually removing the Attacker's benefits from being successful in fights.

It's not design "just for Planetside". It's good game design in general.

The Attacker's benefit is that the killed defender is temporarily removed from combat. The arbitrary design is that the duration it takes to return to combat. It's too long. Since it takes a long time to counter attack, it takes a long time for the gates to come down. It's unnecessarily increasing the time for attackers and defenders.

Cut the gate health, create a spawnpoint closer to keeps, increase the time it takes to build siege or decrease the resources. These are just suggestions that could be done to make the game faster and give every player quicker entry into gameplay. No one enjoys downtime when they want to play.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"The Attacker's benefit is that the killed defender is temporarily removed from combat. The arbitrary design is that the duration it takes to return to combat. It's too long. Since it takes a long time to counter attack, it takes a long time for the gates to come down. It's unnecessarily increasing the time for attackers and defenders.

Cut the gate health, create a spawnpoint closer to keeps, increase the time it takes to build siege or decrease the resources. These are just suggestions that could be done to make the game faster and give every player quicker entry into gameplay. No one enjoys downtime when they want to play."


I'm curious as to how you're actually dying while defending a keep before a door/wall is down. You can easily be resurrected at all times, you can even be resurrected after being "finished."

The problem with your idea isn't the dead defenders being able to come back and defend, it's the immediate potential reinforcements. An entire server's worth of players can immediately teleport to battle to defend a tower? Also, what about small groups that want to go out to capture smaller towers and outposts? By being able to instantly teleport near battle, you can shut down all sorts of tactical *server*-wide organized play. Small groups attacking smaller objectives, doing roaming work like cutting off reinforcements, intercepting supply routes, etc. What you want to do would truly turn the game into zerg vs zerg.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

You seem quite determined to tear this game down.

Or at least people's excitement for it.

Personally, I'd rather have my expectations tempered then surpassed, than hyped and let down.