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Nokia Q2 2012: $1 billion operating loss, net cash up $125 million, 4M Lumia sold

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From The Verge:
Nokia has just posted its Q2 2012 financial report, and with it reveals a total operating loss of €826 billion (around $1 billion). The Finnish company previously warned investors that its Q2 results were likely to be "similar to or below" its enormous €1.3 billion (around $1.6 billion) operating loss in the first quarter. Net cash actually rose by €102 million (around $125 million) thanks to a combination of licensing payments and a hefty quarterly cheque from Microsoft.

Lumia sales reached four million— double last quarter's two million, and in keeping with Nokia's "Rolling Thunder" plan for Windows Phone. Its troubles stem from the fact that Nokia phone sales in other sectors are falling far faster than Windows Phone sales are growing. The company sold 83.7 million phones in total, up from 82.7 last quarter, but still down 4.8 million from last year's figures. Sales of "Smart Devices," which encompasses Symbian, MeeGo, and Windows Phones, dropped from 16.7 million in Q1 to 10.2 million in Q2.

Nokia expects its performance in the third quarter to be similar to its Q1 and Q2 results. It predicts that "the third quarter 2012 to be a challenging quarter in Smart Devices due to product transitions." The company is continuing its transition away from Symbian and MeeGo to Windows Phone, and will also have to endure the wait for Windows Phone 8. The lack of a long-term upgrade path for its Lumia devices may hurt the company significantly in sales. CEO Stephen Elop remains bullish on the company's long term prospects. In a prepared statement he says:

"While Q2 was a difficult quarter, Nokia employees are demonstrating their determination to strengthen our competitiveness, improve our operating model and carefully manage our financial resources.

We are executing with urgency on our restructuring program. We are disposing of non-core assets like Vertu. We are taking the necessary steps to restructure the operations of the company."​
http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/19/3169140/nokia-q2-2012-financial-report

Over 7 million Lumia phones shipped to date:

Nokia's previous quarter saw the company describe the UK market as a "more challenging" one than the US — where Lumia sales exceeded expectations. Nokia has just announced its Q2 2012 financial results today, and the company has revealed four million Lumia devices were sold in its recent quarter — beating analyst predictions by 200,000. After selling over one million Lumia devices during its final quarter of 2011, and two million in Q1 2012, the latest figure shows that Nokia's Rolling Thunder approach is working at a slow and steady pace with over 7 million units shipped to date.

QBRfT.png
 
Beside the 4m Lumia's, these are the other smartphones Nokia sells.

700-front-png.png
Produktbilder-808-front-png.png
n8-front-png.png


I'm not surprised they did well in the UK. The Lumia is quite popular here
 
I was just posting this.

Meanwhile Samsung sold 50m smartphones in Q2 and Apple sold 30.5m iPhones.

I think one of the key points is Nokia only sold 600K Lumia units in North America.

Anyway, Nokia is pretty much fucked. Maybe they should merge with RIM for the ultimate fail.
 
So... like... how long can you bleed like this before you die?

Sad. Why the fuck did they go all in on windows phone? What sane buisiness person would think that going all in on a 'chance' that windows phone takes off, instead of getting in on Android and pushing there too?

Reminds me of Krusty betting it all on the generals against the globe trotters.
 
So... like... how long can you bleed like this before you die?

Sad. Why the fuck did they go all in on windows phone? What sane buisiness person would think that going all in on a 'chance' that windows phone takes off, instead of getting in on Android and pushing there too?
.

Indeed , an android based phone from Nokia would appeal greatly to me.
 
Closer and closer to a buyout by Microsoft I think.

That looks like it was the plan all along. I mean, Microsoft NEEDS someone to carry WP8 and Nokia re the ones more invested in that. If they go under...they will lose a big pillar, so why not snatch them for cheap and get not only the hardware (which I heard Lumia is very good at) but the patents they got (IIRC Nokia has a lot of basic patents from the mobile space, probably more than apple or other companies)
 
So... like... how long can you bleed like this before you die?

Sad. Why the fuck did they go all in on windows phone? What sane buisiness person would think that going all in on a 'chance' that windows phone takes off, instead of getting in on Android and pushing there too?

Reminds me of Krusty betting it all on the generals against the globe trotters.

They also screwed the transition... Elop was so anxious to swallow the windows phone turd it trashed Nokia.
 
So... like... how long can you bleed like this before you die?

Sad. Why the fuck did they go all in on windows phone? What sane buisiness person would think that going all in on a 'chance' that windows phone takes off, instead of getting in on Android and pushing there too?

Reminds me of Krusty betting it all on the generals against the globe trotters.

I do feel genuinely bad for Nokia employees. What Elop has done to that company seems to be bordering on criminal. You only have to look at Galaxy S3 sales to see they've taken the wrong path. It's a shame because they do make fantastic hardware and with Android at least they would have had to opportunity to differentiate themselves with the software, whereas Windows Phone ships pretty much identical on every phone and even the hardware spec is controlled by Microsoft.
 
So... like... how long can you bleed like this before you die?

Sad. Why the fuck did they go all in on windows phone? What sane buisiness person would think that going all in on a 'chance' that windows phone takes off, instead of getting in on Android and pushing there too?

Reminds me of Krusty betting it all on the generals against the globe trotters.

Probably the sane business person looking at the $million cheque Ballmer is handing over every quarter for 'Shared R&D'.

They could have probably sold twice as many android handsets, but they sure as hell wouldn't be making any money out of it, they really don't have anything on Samsung or HTC in terms of tech and they are blown out of the water when it comes to price efficiency.

There was no good move for Nokia.
 
I have a soft spot for Nokia, so I hope they somehow pull through and MS keeps them alive long enough for them to turn it around.
 
I'm not surprised they did well in the UK. The Lumia is quite popular here

I think you misread it, the Lumia is massively underperforming in the UK, but is strong in the US so sales beat projections by 200k overall. This matches up with sales data we get at the bank for Europe and WW, Samsung are the top dog, then Apple, then Nokia, Sony and HTC are basically tied with Sony edging out in front lately and next is ZTE and the Chinese OEMs.
 
Nokia are rapidly losing market share, but they are also losing money. One of these positions has to give eventually or they will go bankrupt, payola from MS or not.

I think Nokia are a great company, but were too slow to react to iOS back in 2007. Back then they should have got Maemo out of the door to compete with Apple in whatever state they had. iOS was the most incomplete mobile OS on the market and it was behind Symbian in terms of feature set until it reached version 3. Nokia didn't heed the warnings and waited to too long, then they got desperate and allowed this MS shill to gut them and prepare them for a buyout on the cheap. All roads are leading to MS buying out Nokia's mobile devices division, the only questions that remain are when and how much.
 
These discussions are always about the failure of Windows Phone and that Nokia should have chosen something different, but according to a comment on the verge:
pyjamarama said:
Nokia Siemens division at Nokia, that does the network infrastructure seems more problematic it lost a lot more money in the last two quarters then the devices division .

That's not something that is fixed by going Android.



Meanwhile Samsung sold 50m smartphones in Q2 and Apple sold 30.5m iPhones.

Even if Nokia had gone Android that wouldn't automatically mean they'd enjoy the success of the iphone or the galaxy line of phone. How many phones have HTC and Sony sold for comparison?

It's not just down to the OS. By now Nokia has a bit of a brand problem, too. Recently when I recommended a Lumia phone to an acquaintance he responded with "Oh, Nokia still make phones?" and without knowing anything about any of the smartphone OSs he was already inclined to buy a Galaxy device... (Samsung Galaxy S plus)
 
Closer and closer to a buyout by Microsoft I think.

There was a rumour that Nokia offered Microsoft a chance to buy parts of Nokia or the full company but they didn't want to buy anything because there were no competitors wanting to buy anything either. Presumably MS is interested in the phone manufactoring and engineering skills, not so much on cellphone communication tech etc.


I am not surprised that Nokia is sinking but as a finnish guy it's kinda bad.
 
Man there so many big consumer tech companies that are circling the drain (one way or another) at the moment.

Not just the usual Japanese suspects but Blackberry and Nokia as well.

They can't continue like this indefinitely so I'm wondering at what point they can't keep the wolf from he door anymore?

I'm not surprised they did well in the UK. The Lumia is quite popular here

Yup, I lots of people with Lumias and I assumed that was a sign that Nokia were some how managing to turn it around.

Obviously not.
 
From the Verge:

" However, the ASP of the Lumia series fell from €220 ($270) last quarter down to €186 ($228)"

This is a big problem as well, the Lumia line up is rapidly depreciating and now that we know that WP8 will not be available to any currently released device (not even the Lumia 900) expect this depreciation to hasten and Nokia's losses balloon.

What's worse is that by all accounts Nokia are not even the largest seller of WP devices, that honour still remains with Samsung. The tip off is that they have not included the words market leader anywhere in the release, if they were the number one WP manufacturer they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

I really, really don't know where Nokia go from here. They are in an ecosystem in which they have literally no control or no stake in, one which cannot be customised with a skin or UI like Sense, TouchWiz or eDream. They are not even the WP market leader and the ASP of their devices has started falling, and none of them are eligible to be updated to WP8.

In 5 years when Nokia are bought by Microsoft out of bankruptcy for a nominal fee, business students will use the company as a case study of how a competitor can poison the well and buy up assets on the cheap. MS have played this to perfection, sent in their operative and backed Nokia into a corner without any exits.

Even if Nokia were to dump WP, the alternative is to join the Android bandwagon, but they are so far behind and they don't have a hook to draw consumers in. Samsung have got their OLED screens, Sony have their cameras, HTC (for better or worse) have Sense. What could work is Nokia forking Android at Jelly Bean and releasing a fully custom version, but I don't know how they would get developers on board.

I still think Jolla succeeding and then being bough by Nokia is the best bet for the company's long term future. Jolla have recently inked a deal to provide handsets for a regional Chinese carrier, it's a decent start for a company with no devices and loaned IP.
 
So... like... how long can you bleed like this before you die?

Sad. Why the fuck did they go all in on windows phone? What sane buisiness person would think that going all in on a 'chance' that windows phone takes off, instead of getting in on Android and pushing there too?

Reminds me of Krusty betting it all on the generals against the globe trotters.


Until the market cap is low enough a Chinese cheap brand (ZTE) can afford to buy it.
 
Maybe you should write a letter stating that to all the laid off Nokia employees to help cheer them up?

"Dear fired Nokia employee,

I'm sorry to hear that you got fired, but I'm glad that Symbian is dead.

Still hope that you find a new job.

Cheers!"

Seriously now

2DzrD.jpg


YJbSI.jpg


Symbian-related research costs for Nokia reached about $1.4 billion last year, with more than a third of its 17,200 R&D workforce assigned to the operating system, according to Sanford C. Bernstein & Co. Apple spent $772 million on the iPhone in 2010, when it introduced the iPhone 4, according to the broker. Apple's R&D was 2.7 percent of sales for the year ended September, while Nokia's 2010 devices R&D was 10 percent of the division's sales.

There's no way it wouldn't have happened, even if they switched to Android.
 
Man there so many big consumer tech companies that are circling the drain (one way or another) at the moment.

Not just the usual Japanese suspects but Blackberry and Nokia as well.

They can't continue like this indefinitely so I'm wondering at what point they can't keep the wolf from he door anymore?



Yup, I lots of people with Lumias and I assumed that was a sign that Nokia were some how managing to turn it around.

Obviously not.

The only Lumias I see in the UK are on Hollyoaks and MS pays for that :P

It's difficult to see Nokia get out alive from this one. It's too latefor them to make any sizable impact on Android as well really.
 
These discussions are always about the failure of Windows Phone and that Nokia should have chosen something different, but according to a comment on the verge:


That's not something that is fixed by going Android.





Even if Nokia had gone Android that wouldn't automatically mean they'd enjoy the success of the iphone or the galaxy line of phone. How many phones have HTC and Sony sold for comparison?

HTC sold 9.5 million Sony sold 8.1 this quarter.

http://pocket.co/sMknf
 
From the Verge:
" However, the ASP of the Lumia series fell from €220 ($270) last quarter down to €186 ($228)"

This is a big problem as well, the Lumia line up is rapidly depreciating and now that we know that WP8 will not be available to any currently released device (not even the Lumia 900) expect this depreciation to hasten and Nokia's losses balloon.

I am guessing this has something to do with the fact that they introduced the Lumia 610 and launched those devices in markets like China. They want Windows Phone on entry level devices.


What's worse is that by all accounts Nokia are not even the largest seller of WP devices, that honour still remains with Samsung. The tip off is that they have not included the words market leader anywhere in the release, if they were the number one WP manufacturer they would be shouting it from the rooftops.

I'm pretty sure that Nokia has sold more Windows Phones than Samsung since it launched the Lumia line.

I really, really don't know where Nokia go from here. They are in an ecosystem in which they have literally no control or no stake in, one which cannot be customised with a skin or UI like Sense, TouchWiz or eDream. They are not even the WP market leader and the ASP of their devices has started falling, and none of them are eligible to be updated to WP8.

Nokia has quite a bit of control over Windows Phone. They played a major role in the decision to push the OS down to entry level devices with the latest update. They can also do some customization to the OS.


I still think Jolla succeeding and then being bough by Nokia is the best bet for the company's long term future. Jolla have recently inked a deal to provide handsets for a regional Chinese carrier, it's a decent start for a company with no devices and loaned IP.

I really don't see Jolla succeeding. With how much shit Windows Phone gets for its 'weak' ecosystem I don't think anyone would give Meego a pass.
 
I am guessing this has something to do with the fact that they introduced the Lumia 610 and launched those devices in markets like China. They want Windows Phone on entry level devices.

Maybe some, but not all of the reduction in ASP can be explained away by introduction of lower priced SKUs. I know for a fact that Nokia have aggressively cut prices around Europe to force take-up of Lumia devices.

I'm pretty sure that Nokia has sold more Windows Phones than Samsung since it launched the Lumia line.

You're sure about that?

Nokia has quite a bit of control over Windows Phone. They played a major role in the decision to push the OS down to entry level devices with the latest update. They can also do some customization to the OS.

Which is worth diddly squat, because they still have no way of differentiating their offering vs Samsung or other WP players. The only respite they have is that it looks like most other manufacturers are giving up on WP after the WP8 bombshell.

I really don't see Jolla succeeding. With how much shit Windows Phone gets for its 'weak' ecosystem I don't think anyone would give Meego a pass.

Neither do I, but I still think it is the best bet for Nokia's long term future. WP is dead after the WP8 announcement. Android phones get shit for not updating on time well WP manufacturers are about to find out what happens when you don't update at all. What is worse is that WP8 will eventually come to the same spec devices as the 900, but the 900 won't get the update and Nokia will be left carrying the can and not MS who are the idiots who made this decision.
 
Maybe some, but not all of the reduction in ASP can be explained away by introduction of lower priced SKUs. I know for a fact that Nokia have aggressively cut prices around Europe to force take-up of Lumia devices.



You're sure about that?



Which is worth diddly squat, because they still have no way of differentiating their offering vs Samsung or other WP players. The only respite they have is that it looks like most other manufacturers are giving up on WP after the WP8 bombshell.



Neither do I, but I still think it is the best bet for Nokia's long term future. WP is dead after the WP8 announcement. Android phones get shit for not updating on time well WP manufacturers are about to find out what happens when you don't update at all. What is worse is that WP8 will eventually come to the same spec devices as the 900, but the 900 won't get the update and Nokia will be left carrying the can and not MS who are the idiots who made this decision.

It was up to the manufacturer to provide updates for their Windows Phone 7.x devices. They decided against it, because it wasn't worth it.
 
Which is worth diddly squat, because they still have no way of differentiating their offering vs Samsung or other WP players. The only respite they have is that it looks like most other manufacturers are giving up on WP after the WP8 bombshell.

The following manufacturers are scheduled for delivering WP8 devices during 2013: Nokia, Huawei*, Samsung, HTC, ZTE, Lenovo* and Acer.

* = new
 
The following manufacturers are scheduled for delivering WP8 devices during 2013: Nokia, Huawei*, Samsung, HTC, ZTE, Lenovo* and Acer.

* = new

The total count is still down, compared to the first Windows Phone announcement in 2010.

Windows Phone 7 announcement in 2010:
tCeOF.jpg


Reality:
HP bailed because they bought Palm.
SE had a prototype in development and decided to dump it (Google "Sony Ericsson Julie")
Garmin-Asus provided developer phones, but the join venture split before they could bring a device to market
Toshiba had a Windows Phone 6.5 device with WP7 specs, but unlike HTC, they didn't came out with a WP7 version
Dell's phone was rushed to market and beta

Windows Phone 7.5 announcement in 2011:
S2eVv.jpg


Reality:
LG re-released their first Windows Phone with same hardware specs under a fashion label (Jil Sander E906)
ZTE, like Acer, released a single mediocre device with absolute minimum specs, probably as part of their Android licensing agreement
Same could be said about Fujitsu, even their their phone was decent.



Windows Phone 8:
NlMpH.jpg
 
Maybe some, but not all of the reduction in ASP can be explained away by introduction of lower priced SKUs. I know for a fact that Nokia have aggressively cut prices around Europe to force take-up of Lumia devices.

Smartphones in general do often go down in price quite fast (e.g. the Galaxy Nexus launched for like 550 Euros afair and could be found for 350 maybe half a year later).


You're sure about that?

Yes. http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-already-nearly-50-of-second-generation-windows-phone-market-share/


Which is worth diddly squat, because they still have no way of differentiating their offering vs Samsung or other WP players. The only respite they have is that it looks like most other manufacturers are giving up on WP after the WP8 bombshell.

I'd say they do a pretty good job differentiating themselves via their apps. (also by putting more effort into their hardware)
 
They slowed the cash hemorrhage but now need to transition into WP8. If they can pull that off they might be OK. WP was basically starting from scratch so it'll take time to build momentum.
 
They slowed the cash hemorrhage but now need to transition into WP8. If they can pull that off they might be OK. WP was basically starting from scratch so it'll take time to build momentum.

It's not exactly from scratch when you start with 100.000+ applications and build on the same tools. If anything the closer ties to Windows 8 might be good for Windows Phone as it's easier to port software.


Windows Phone 8:
NlMpH.jpg

Looks like Acer might be back next year. http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/19/3169290/acer-windows-phone-8-handset-2013-rumor
 
Now I dont even bother to play 'what if' games in Nokia threads. I just look on with morbid interest and try to guess when the plug will be pulled.
 
Now I dont even bother to play 'what if' games in Nokia threads. I just look on with morbid interest and try to guess when the plug will be pulled.

What if changed to when. D:

I feel bad for Nokia, such a great company, ruined by a Microsoft snake in the grass. They had problems, for sure, and it was a classic European company in terms of being a job creation scheme rather than a proper business, but the devices were so awesome. I would pay a lot of money for a Nokia Android phone. The best phone I ever had was a Nokia N95, it was so awesome.
 
What if changed to when. D:

I feel bad for Nokia, such a great company, ruined by a Microsoft snake in the grass. They had problems, for sure, and it was a classic European company in terms of being a job creation scheme rather than a proper business, but the devices were so awesome. I would pay a lot of money for a Nokia Android phone. The best phone I ever had was a Nokia N95, it was so awesome.

You can still buy those great Nokia devices you're talking about. Nokia just recently released the 808 PureView with the latest and greatest version of Symbian. Mmmmmm.
 
I have yet to see a WP in the wild, and I can't remember the last time I saw a Nokia phone.
 
You can still buy those great Nokia devices you're talking about. Nokia just recently released the 808 PureView with the latest and greatest version of Symbian. Mmmmmm.

Yeah, no. I've been looking at a Sony RX100 or the new Panasonic LX7 to replace my ageing Canon SX120. Not going to get another Symbian phone or a camera without any kind of zoom lens. If it had 3-4x optical zoom I would definitely look at it.
 
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