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Breaking Bad - Season 5, Part 1 - Sundays on AMC

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BenjaminBirdie said:
Think about it this way. Think about seeing Walt scurry up to Skylar in bed, saying it's for the family, cut to black.

When do you think that image will have more impact. When it's followed by three remote clicks and the following episode or by you just sitting there for a while and looking at your cat.
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See, I think that image is strong enough to have immediate impact, not just upon reflection. Every time I watch Walt around Skyler, it feels highly unsettling.

Regardless, nothing is necessarily forcing you to immediately proceed to the next episode without taking a few minutes to go grab a sandwich, feed some of it to your cat, and process the episode for a bit. You just don't have to wait a week to see what comes next. I marathoned through BSG, but there were also several points where some event would happen and I would just kind of sit there for a time, mouth agape.
 
I marathoned the first two seasons and done the last 3 live. There are trade-offs to both. You don't have the insane internal speculation between episodes when you marathon (wondering what's going to happen next is certainly an important part of the show), but you also have less breathing room. The darkness that continues to swell up can feel that much more present without having a week or two to process it.
 
dave is ok said:
I really hate how few people realize that.

Walt left Gretchen when he found out her family was rich. This was not only stated in the show, but by Vince Gilligan in a Sepinwall interview.

EDIT: Correction - it was Jessica Hecht with AMC
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haha so it was Walt's ego that fucked him even back then

it's amazing how mapped out Walt's character is, because this entire character growth makes total sense any way to slice it. He always had this in him
 
-Pyromaniac- said:
I think we're reaching if we're thinking that now Walt doesn't care about Junior.

OH BUT IF HE CARED HE'D STOP MAKING MEFFFF AMIRITE.

Puh-lease.
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This.

Walt is just completely gone (delusional) at this point. He still loves his kids, and he still loves his wife to a certain extent. What he wants is for everything at home to pretend to be normal while he runs a meth empire. He's absolutely insane, not actually this cool and collected master manipulator that people seem to make him out to be (and he believes himself to be). I guarantee that underneath all of his persona is still a cowardly science teacher and I wouldn't be shocked to see it come out again before the series is through.
 
Why are people so willing to take Walt at his word? How can you tell he really cares for his kids, in an unconditional way? Because he says he'll do anything for them? Because he talks sweetly to them? Don't fall for a sociopath: they're incredibly good at disguising themselves as benevolent and manipulating those that love them.
 
I dunno, the scene when Walter Jr. finds his dad hurt by the fight with Jesse, and seeing him cry as the most vulnerable creature in earth was pretty powerful. Even he knows something is odd with his father (and he told him) he still loves him and sees him as something to aspire.

Of course, it's unknown how he would react to know that his father is a kingpin that has done some horrible shit along the way, but he is still with him. That car scene is one of the best interactions they have shared in the series, IMO.

What he wants is for everything at home to pretend to be normal while he runs a meth empire.
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Maybe he should go the Tony Soprano way? :P
 
SpeedingUptoStop said:
And the hospital full of collateral damage aka INNOCENT OLD PEOPLE and NURSES
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Just quoting because it's hilarious that you edited specifically to add NURSES.

It really doesn't matter HOW many people Walt killed, to Skylar. Ever since the beginning she's insisted that they're not violent people, so the fact that Walt killed somebody is pretty shocking. But there are two things that are probably more shocking to her:

* He's proud of it.
* As Ted proves, she's turning into him.
 
I'm all for going against Walt, but I don't understand how he was to blame for the plane crash? Sure he let Jane die, which was his fault, but it's not like he intentionally wanted those planes to crash, as he didn't even know who Jane's father was.
 
As much as I think Walt is a sociopath lacking any sense of remorse over his actions, I don't personally think he's to blame for the planes. I don't think they exist as anything more than a way to render concrete his negative impact on the world outside the family-life bubble we see in the show.
 
KarmaCow said:
Remember when Walt was having troubling rationalizing his innocence over the deaths in the plane crash? How far we've come.
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That was one of the best examples of old Walt I can think of. Back when he was still defendable, because he was trying so hard to rationalize it. Now, who gives a fuck.
 
Walt does not lack remorse of his actions. Instead he has remorse when things are going badly and very little when things are going well. So ultimately so far that he is the king, yes he won't have remorse.

The problem with Walt is that once he gains the advantage and freedom of choice to act as he pleases which is precisely the moment he must have self awareness is where he loses it. But it wouldn't be fair to say that he is entirely without remorse or entirely incapable of worse. But due to his flaws/personality, he lacks it when he needs it the most and instead operated based on a delusional high.
 
IMG_0807_2.jpg


This is Aaron Paul's girl? Gotdamn.
 
Emerson said:
This.

Walt is just completely gone (delusional) at this point. He still loves his kids, and he still loves his wife to a certain extent. What he wants is for everything at home to pretend to be normal while he runs a meth empire. He's absolutely insane, not actually this cool and collected master manipulator that people seem to make him out to be (and he believes himself to be). I guarantee that underneath all of his persona is still a cowardly science teacher and I wouldn't be shocked to see it come out again before the series is through.
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I agree with your take on him.
 
Reuenthal said:
Walt does not lack remorse of his actions. Instead he has remorse when things are going badly and very little when things are going well. So ultimately so far that he is the king, yes he won't have remorse.
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What you're describing isn't remorse, it's disappointment.
 
maharg said:
What you're describing isn't remorse, it's disappointment.
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No he genuinely felt remorse in the episode of Fly. Or in the episode he met with Walter junior and felt what he did was wrong. I believe people in different situations can react differently. However once Walt has the advantage those feelings that what he did was wrong and of guilt are gone. And his moments of remorse in his life are not that plentiful anyway but fleeting.

But he certainly had his moments of being consumed by guilt. That those moments aren't enough does not mean that they don't exist.

Can people who are capable of feeling guilt do very shitty things without feeling guilt while doing so? Yes. Unfortunately being capable of feeling guilt and regret some of the time does not mean that much. Not feeling guilt the right time is the issue.

Now in the case of Walter, he has delusions about what he is doing not being as bad thing as it really is and about the dangers of it, so that is also relevant to his reactions. Those delusions can crush by reality proving them wrong. And when that happens I expect him to feel and understand how his wife and Saul was right and he should have took that last opportunity to leave meth behind him and how much harm he has done. But we will see.
 
Yeah, I'd say there was some remorse. Just don't expect anything like that now, until someone busts him.
 
Reuenthal said:
Walt does not lack remorse of his actions. Instead he has remorse when things are going badly and very little when things are going well. So ultimately so far that he is the king, yes he won't have remorse.

The problem with Walt is that once he gains the advantage and freedom of choice to act as he pleases which is precisely the moment he must have self awareness is where he loses it. But it wouldn't be fair to say that he is entirely without remorse or entirely incapable of worse. But due to his flaws/personality, he lacks it when he needs it the most and instead operated based on a delusional high.
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I don't think remorse and regret are always the same thing.
 
Do you guys listen to the podcast for the show? the ones between V Gilligan and the executes? It's on itunes and it's pretty interesting to listen to after each episode.

This week Anna Gun aka SkySky is on the podcast. They actually mention the "skylar hate" on the podcast lol
 
Reuenthal said:
No he genuinely felt remorse in the episode of Fly. Or in the episode he met with Walter junior and felt what he did was wrong. I believe people in different situations can react differently. However once Walt has the advantage those feelings that what he did was wrong and of guilt are gone. And his moments of remorse in his life are not that plentiful anyway but fleeting.

But he certainly had his moments of being consumed by guilt. That those moments aren't enough does not mean that they don't exist.
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I agree with this. Walter clearly does feel bad on occasion -- it's obvious he FEELS that he was responsible for the plane crash, even if it's not 100% logical. The school assembly speech is a fantastic example of his defense mechanisms against guilt, and "Fly" is a great example of what happens when he lets them down. The trouble is that he's so good at rationalizing it away and distracting himself with forward momentum.

The most recent episode is really a great example of this. Skylar starts telling him how bad she feels about Ted and Walter immediately starts explaining how she shouldn't feel responsible for it -- and Skylar totally rejects his justifications, which is when he gets really mad, because if she's right that his justification of her crime is bullshit, that means his justification of his own crimes are equally suspect.

Then, when Skylar confronts him with the cancer, how does he react? There are a lot of things he COULD do to deal with his obvious, sudden terror of death, but what he does do is throw himself aggressively into his work. He won't stop -- he can't stop, ever, because if he stops he has to accept that this is what he's made of his life. As long as he keeps moving forward, he can tell himself it'll all work out right in the end.

Walter's a bad person, but by no means is he a simple character.
 
Reuenthal said:
No he genuinely felt remorse in the episode of Fly. Or in the episode he met with Walter junior and felt what he did was wrong. I believe people in different situations can react differently. However once Walt has the advantage those feelings that what he did was wrong and of guilt are gone. And his moments of remorse in his life are not that plentiful anyway but fleeting.

But he certainly had his moments of being consumed by guilt. That those moments aren't enough does not mean that they don't exist.

Can people who are capable of feeling guilt do very shitty things without feeling guilt while doing so? Yes. Unfortunately being capable of feeling guilt and regret some of the time does not mean that much. Not feeling guilt the right time is the issue.

Now in the case of Walter, he has delusions about what he is doing not being as bad thing as it really is and about the dangers of it, so that is also relevant to his reactions. Those delusions can crush by reality proving them wrong.
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I think you underestimate the degree to which what Walt says to anyone is calculated manipulation. He knows he's done things that are considered wrong, and he might even regret having done them for the ways in which they've later complicated his life, but he still believes that they were the right things to do and that he was fully justified in doing them.
 
I think both sides are are too far on their own extremes. Those who think Walt is a complete monster that doesn't give a shit about anything but himself and dem staxx and shit. And also those people who think he is guilt ridden over certain things or whatever.

It's somewhere in between.
 
-Pyromaniac- said:
Those who think Walt is a complete monster that doesn't give a shit about anything but himself and dem staxx and shit..
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I think he doesn't give a shit about anything but his ego.

I'm all for a nuanced characterization, but I don't see one in this case. Every one of his actions serves his pride first.

I know, I know: agree to disagree. I'm only continuing the conversation in hopes that I can help someone avoid the impending "That came out of left field!" comments when Walt does something explicitly evil to his family. He's been gradually relegating them to second-class citizenship, along with the rest of the world for all he cares, and failure to see this on the part of the viewer is going to set them up for quite a surprise.
 
-Pyromaniac- said:
I think both sides are are too far on their own extremes. Those who think Walt is a complete monster that doesn't give a shit about anything but himself and dem staxx and shit. And also those people who think he is guilt ridden over certain things or whatever.

It's somewhere in between.
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Oh shove it. Only a monster would throw the Aztek out to the curb like that.
 
maharg said:
I think you underestimate the degree to which what Walt says to anyone is calculated manipulation. He knows he's done things that are considered wrong, and he might even regret having done them for the ways in which they've later complicated his life, but he still believes that they were the right things to do and that he was fully justified in doing them.
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Right now, yes. When he spoke with Walter Junior, no and it was not manipulation. I don't think a person is the same person with the same ideas all of the time. Especially this guy as he was presented in this show. When the delusional world comes crashing down, do you expect him to have the same response? Right now he feels that what he is doing is not going to hurt his family and the danger to family stability is Skyler who does not let him make the family richer and also enjoy himself and that she is trying to take his kids away from him. He is wrong. His world has crashed down in some occasions where he was not manipulating people in those instances but felt differently but Walter right now certainly I agree does not think in that way. But as I don't expect him to win, I expect that to change.

Reality will prove him wrong about the fact that his choices where right just like he now thinks it has proven him right.

Battersea Power Station said:
I think he doesn't give a shit about anything but his ego.

I'm all for a nuanced characterization, but I don't see one in this case. Every one of his actions serves his pride first.

I know, I know: agree to disagree. I'm only continuing the conversation in hopes that I can help someone avoid the impending "That came out of left field!" comments when Walt does something explicitly evil to his family. He's been gradually relegating them to second-class citizenship, along with the rest of the world for all he cares, and failure to see this on the part of the viewer is going to set them up for quite a surprise.
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In a way yes but not entirely. He does give a fuck about his family mostly his kids than Skyler but not enough to stop endangering them with his activities and he tries to delude himself that it is about his family.

His ego has taken such control to such a disgusting decree that he constantly manipulates Jesse, yet I believe he does care about him on some level. I mean look at the times he has saved him on the show. His ego and manipulation has corrupted his relationships and his love but I believe he would risk his life for them and I would not agree that he doesn't give a shit about them. But he does not give enough shit to not manipulate them and he has deluded himself tothink what he is doing is fine so I don't know if it matters that much if someone cares about you but is also abusive. So his caring is not enough and deserves criticism. He is corrupting his relationships with his manipulation.

So there is much disturbing about his relationships but I don't believe he does not care at all about these people. (Jesse and kids. He cares less about Skyller than Jesse and his kids, I am not sure how much he cares about her).
 
Reuenthal said:
Right now, yes. When he spoke with Walter Junior, no and it was not manipulation.
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But I think you're missing what he actually says to Walter Jr. It's not actually about Walter Jr. at all! What upsets Walter is the thought that his son will remember him as being weak.
 
Q: What's it like have Bryan Cranston curse at you?

A: Oh man, he's a good actor. But it was easy because Vince Gilligan told us exactly what went down between the characters off screen: We were very much in love and we were to get married. And he came home and met my family, and I come from this really successful, wealthy family, and that knocks him on his side. He couldn't deal with this inferiority he felt -- this lack of connection to privilege. It made him terrified, and he literally just left me, and I was devastated. Walt is fighting his way out of going back to that emotional place, so he says, "F--- you."
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Whoa, finally some info about the relationship on both...I still hope they show it on the screen though.
 
Reuenthal said:
Right now, yes. When he spoke with Walter Junior, no and it was not manipulation. I don't think a person is the same person with the same ideas all of the time. Especially this guy as he was presented in this show. When the delusional world comes crashing down, do you expect him to have the same response? Right now he feels that what he is doing is not going to hurt his family and the danger to family stability is Skyler who does not let him make the family richer and also enjoy himself and that she is trying to take his kids away from him. He is wrong. His world has crashed down in some occasions where he was not manipulating people in those instances but felt differently but Walter right now certainly I agree does not think in that way. But as I don't expect him to win, I expect that to change.

Reality will prove him wrong about the fact that his choices where right just like he now thinks it has proven him right.



In a way yes but not entirely. He does give a fuck about his family mostly his kids than Skyler but not enough to stop endangering them with his activities and he tries to delude himself that it is about his family.

His ego has taken such control to such a disgusting decree that he constantly manipulates Jesse, yet I believe he does care about him on some level. I mean look at the times he has saved him on the show. His ego and manipulation has corrupted his relationships and his love but I believe he would risk his life for them and I would not agree that he doesn't give a shit about them. But he does not give enough shit to not manipulate them and he has deluded himself tothink what he is doing is fine so I don't know if it matters that much if someone cares about you but is also abusive. So his caring is not enough and deserves criticism. He is corrupting his relationships with his manipulation.

So there is much disturbing about his relationships but I don't believe he does not care at all about these people. (Jesse and kids. He cares less about Skyller than Jesse and his kids, I am not sure how much he cares about her).
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*Sigh*. Why is it whenever the question of Walt potentially being a sociopath do people get all up in this 'caring' nonsense? Sociopaths care about people and things. They also manipulate those people and things to an incredible degree. They rationalize harmful behaviour in ways normal people don't. They have emotions, often very extreme ones. They act friendly and charming. At least until you challenge their worldview, then they turn on you in an instant. Tell me this does not sound like Walt.
 
maharg said:
*Sigh*. Why is it whenever the question of Walt potentially being a sociopath do people get all up in this 'caring' nonsense? Sociopaths care about people and things. They also manipulate those people and things to an incredible degree. They rationalize harmful behaviour in ways normal people don't. They have emotions, often very extreme ones. They act friendly and charming. At least until you challenge their worldview, then they turn on you in an instant. Tell me this does not sound like Walt.
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I agree entirely. That was my point the problem with Walt is that he rationalizes harmful behavior in ways normal people don't and not that he is incapable of caring about people and things or feeling of remorse. He unlike normal people does not feel it when he should or as much as they should. But he does not lack that behavior at all and it he is not always manipulative (although in season 5 he is so far and in season 5 he really has very little remorse) which in turn makes him a more interesting character than if he was pure cartoonishly black and more simplistic one. You seem to be arguing my point while at the same time sighing at me for some reason.

I am really baffled by how you came up with this response to the posts I was making. It feels really weird, it would feel more normal but not perfectly normal either, if your response was my response towards your posts. Not a helpful response, if you disagree with certain conclusions I had (not strawmans) and explain your different view that would had been more constructive.
 
Yeah, I don't think Walt is ever really guilt-ridden. It's clear he feels bad over certain events, but he doesn't convey true remorse for them, and I think him feeling bad is borne more out of a self-centered element than anything else. He's mostly upset at himself that he's made to feel a certain way, and that it impedes his forward momentum.

So Walt continually rationalizes - both through words and actions - the destructive things he does, so that he no longer has to feel those negative emotions, and he does it without giving any real consideration as to how he makes others around him feel. Even if something isn't directly his fault, he still attempts to work through it in a way that is remarkably oblivious to the feelings of those around him and ultimately causes even greater damage. The airline crash speech at the school is a perfect example of that.

Walt has shown a decreasing capacity for empathy as the show has progressed, and at this point he is a showcase for narcissism, completely lost in the world he's devised in his own head - that of Heisenberg, legendary badass dealer of killer blue meth. Won't be a happy ending at the conclusion of this show.
 
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