GOP set to adopt official abortion platform without exceptions for rape and incest
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Between this and the Evolution/Creationism debate, I made up my mind I never to want to live in the US.
Devolution
Member
So um if life is so precious why isn't the GOP shutting down fertility clinics?
I want to leave the US but I haven't really put much thought into it. I need to at least move to a state where I can get married :/
But we aren't back to the discussion. I was talking about, and stated, the choice to have unprotected sex.
Obviously Canada.
While I haven't put much thought into it Canada is my number one choice at the moment.
Wow, wasn't expecting that, NullPointer. Especially the bolded part, unless I'm misunderstanding you? If not, thanks.
On the point of people being pro-choice AND against it, I can sympathize. I am for legalization of most if not all drugs, but have never done one, never will, don't drink, don't smoke, and actually find these acts slightly-to-VERY immoral. But I think people can do it. Obviously, I can't completely sympathize in the case of abortion, as I do think it is literally the same as murdering an innocent baby, but I get the mindset.
Ok, thanks for sharing. I... will restrain myself in asking anything further, as I respect how much personal information you've shared already (I'm balding).
I have some friends that just moved to Vancouver, seems pretty awesome!
I will not derail this further.
Like I said, it's not the actual fact they believe that an embryo or fetus actually has the same value as a human, it's strictly the fact that a woman is choosing to end the pregnancy that bothers them.
Pissing out a fertilized egg, having a miscarriage for any reason, going to receive IvF and all the fertilized eggs not taking, all those frozen embryos that we have for stem cell research (well, not any more), not important.
Just the choice. Which makes their fight to "protect life" simply silly when you fully analyze it.
Holy shit. :lol
What if a woman chooses to use contraception, and still gets pregnant? Hint: read a few pages back
Duh, you just pop them out and you're body is back like it was before. You don't even know it's there in the first place!
It's basic Biology.
Sorry, missed this, Kaz. Wasn't ignoring you.
Um, not in principle, which is the point of the analogy? I mean, if anything the termination of "pregnancy" is worse. The other is horrendous neglect through inaction, but abortion is literally ending a baby's life through violence.
Um, not in principle, which is the point of the analogy? I mean, if anything the termination of "pregnancy" is worse. The other is horrendous neglect through inaction, but abortion is literally ending a baby's life through violence.
My hair is greying.
A lot of my thoughts on abortion stem from the overwhelming feeling that as a man, I simply don't, and shouldn't, have a say in the matter. I could argue, or persuade, one way or the other. But in the end I don't feel that I should have the ability to compel women to behave a certain way, and that is where I come down on my advocacy for the law. As I said, there's a line where I get uncomfortable and conflicted with late terms, but I can't help but feel that it's not my call.
I certainly would want the ability to choose were roles reversed.
Aww, thanks
I very strongly disagree that terminating a pregnancy is worse. It's not "ending a baby's life", that is such a misleading way to put it.
Aww, thanks
I very strongly disagree that terminating a pregnancy is worse. It's not "ending a baby's life", that is such a misleading way to put it.
What do you consider a human fetus to be?
A mass of cells.
Then it's more complicated.
My hair is greying.
A lot of my thoughts on abortion stem from the overwhelming feeling that as a man, I simply don't, and shouldn't, have a say in the matter. I could argue, or persuade, one way or the other. But in the end I don't feel that I should have the ability to compel women to behave a certain way, and that is where I come down on my advocacy for the law. As I said, there's a line where I get uncomfortable and conflicted with late terms, but I can't help but feel that it's not my call.
I certainly would want the ability to choose were roles reversed.
Of course you would like the ability to choose; the question is, should you be able to choose in this circumstance? It would entirely depend on whether you believe life begins at conception. When I was a kid, I would like to have been able to choose whether or not to get grounded for something I did, but that doesn't mean I should have had the choice.
So are you.
Living cells? Belonging to which species?
It's pretty amazing that you keep making the same argument and keep getting shot down over and over again.
Come live with me in Washington after we shoot down the attempt to block gay marriage this fall!
So are you.
Living cells? Belonging to which species?
I just wouldn't consider a fetus to be a life.
There's clearly a whole lot of dumb going on in here, but I think if the fetus/baby is in the final trimester, that it's fucked up to abort. She should have made up her mind a lot sooner. IMO, at that point there are other better options. However, anything prior to those final few months and it's fair play and people should mind their own fucking business.
I work for a Catholic organization who is going to do $1 billion dollars of humanitarian aid work aboard this fiscal year on behalf of the USCCB. The majority of our programs are based in Africa. And although in regions where the average married woman has SEVEN FUCKING KIDS and roughly enough food/money to feed about 20% of them - we do not hand out contraceptives to the people we serve.
We don't do this because a book says that it's immoral to do such things. That's what people who have already bought into the system want to believe, but that's far, far from the true.
We don't do it for the simple fact that it would be bad for business. We don't hand out condoms that would help control the population, in turn, slowing down human suffering, because without new babies in the world there be no one to serve, and eventually, there would be no church. It's seriously that simple.
It's survival of the fittest and the stakes are actual human lives. That's what the church, and more specially, the Vatican are protecting by attempting to follow text that is thousands of years old and has little to no basis in modern society.
There are people in this thread that are basically saying: It would be safer for single women to just suck dick and wait until marriage to fuck dudes because the risk of getting knocked up isn't worth it.
Does that sound like a person who has any meaningful grasp of what is going on in the world? It's terrifying. And the fact that people like that can potentially run this country and have an effect on policies is an absolute nightmare to me. Ugh.
I work for a Catholic organization who is going to do $1 billion dollars of humanitarian aid work aboard this fiscal year on behalf of the USCCB. The majority of our programs are based in Africa. And although in regions where the average married woman has SEVEN FUCKING KIDS and roughly enough food/money to feed about 20% of them - we do not hand out contraceptives to the people we serve.
We don't do this because a book says that it's immoral to do such things. That's what people who have already bought into the system want to believe, but that's far, far from the true.
We don't do it for the simple fact that it would be bad for business. We don't hand out condoms that would help control the population, in turn, slowing down human suffering, because without new babies in the world there be no one to serve, and eventually, there would be no church. It's seriously that simple.
It's survival of the fittest and the stakes are actual human lives. That's what the church, and more specially, the Vatican are protecting by attempting to follow text that is thousands of years old and has little to no basis in modern society.
There are people in this thread that are basically saying: It would be safer for single women to just suck dick and wait until marriage to fuck dudes because the risk of getting knocked up isn't worth it.
Does that sound like a person who has any meaningful grasp of what is going on in the world? It's terrifying. And the fact that people like that can potentially run this country and have an effect on policies is an absolute nightmare to me. Ugh.
Good night, guys.
Sperm are living cells belonging to humans. By your logic, I've murdered trillions!So are you.
Living cells? Belonging to which species?
Your argument is frankly ridiculous.
Good riddance.
He'll be back again tomorrow with the exact same "arguments" and data made up on the spot, don't worry.
So you're against adoption?
You stop a human from developing. At the embryonic stage humans aren't physiologically much different from other animals at that stage.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
If you are feeling so strongly about it, then why do you work for them...? Because that seems a thousand level of wrong there.
Not sure why you guys are wasting time arguing with someone who posts things like:
But I'm sure he's a bastion of human rights and all, so carry on!
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40141746&postcount=1535
But I'm sure he's a bastion of human rights and all, so carry on!
We have to let the babies grow so we can punish them for being gay
Punish the mother and the child!
The logical conclusion of this is that women, as the only sex that must deal with this, must necessarily have less freedom than men. Furthermore, neither should they recieve appreciation or high regard, because they are just murderers otherwise and only doing what they are obligated to do.
Which, as it happens, is consistent with traditional male-dominant societies.
Honestly, they pay well and we really do help a lot of people. The church is a tool to gain access to the people and the local parishes and bishops allow us to gain their trust.
It is however a huge deterrent in certain parts of the world. India and Pakistan make us jump through hoops to gain access or even travel for business to their countries.
NullPointer
Member
At six weeks that clump of cells has a heartbeat and a burgeoning nervous system. I'm not seeing how drawing a line that determines when we can consider a fetus to be worthy of the title of 'human life' or 'person' is at all a slam dunk.
I think some people are overzealous about referring to early life as something abstract, clinical, or even gross, like we're talking about the remnants of a sneeze, and they do this because a woman's rights in these issues is always under attack or held firm only with constant vigilance. So to give in even a little, to admit that there is human attachment and connection to that beating heart in that clump of cells is to risk cracking the doors ajar that keep those rights enshrined within the law.
I can sympathize with this, but I have to think that if this wasn't a question of rights we'd all just agree that life begins at conception. You can believe this and hold that these are private matters between a woman and her doctor.
This thread has actually helped me work out the connection between feminism and abortion. It's not called "reproductive freedom" for nothing.
But if you believe that life begins at conception, then it's not a stripping of freedom exclusive to women, but a freedom none of us, male or female, legally have (to take away a life, even if it's our own).
Being forced to undergo a nine month pregnancy then being forced to care for the resultant child is the loss of freedom. Men do not undergo the same loss although our current legal system compensates a little by forcing monetary support.
I actually find it much easier to side with the idea that life begins at birth. A fetus can't survive outside the uterus until after 24-28 weeks, and even then, it would have a lot of complications due to underdevelopment. But like GhaleonEB mentioned, I'd be uncomfortable with (for example) a woman getting an abortion the day before she's due for delivery. Still, if you want to draw a line when life begins, I'd say it's much, much closer to birth than conception.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
What is the recorded latest time a woman ever performed abortion successfully, does anybody know?
I know, but decisions can have repercussions. A decision to have unprotected sex that can result in a pregnancy doesn't mean that, if the woman does get pregnant, it wasn't her fault and she should be able to have an abortion. Sometimes, if you do something you probably shouldn't have, you have to deal with what happens. I know pregnancy is exclusive to women, but making decisions and having to deal with their repercussions isn't.
NullPointer
Member
Yep. And even if we all could agree on exactly when we considered it to be a person we'd still have the central conflict between the rights of that unborn person and the rights of the mother. And that really is about whether society can force a woman, against her will, to endure that pregnancy, or whether that is a choice to be made between a woman and her doctor (and whomever else she wants to bring into it).
Men have to bear responsibility, and have no legal choice in the matter. From our very first sexual experience we are on the hook for any offspring that could possibly result. Is that just punishment of males?
So again; what if a woman uses contraception and still gets pregnant?
Also, your line of thinking is dangerously close to saying a woman should be punished for having unprotected sex.
I haven't thought about it enough, and I don't have an opinion on it. It's more complicated.
I'm not punishing a woman for having unprotected sex. If they have unprotected sex and get pregnant, then that was a byproduct of their choice. If I am riding my bike and decide to ride on the interstate and get hit, I don't see the fact that I have to go to the hospital and have surgery as getting punished for riding my bike, but a consequence of a choice I made.
So your saying that you would deny having instant healing (abortion) if you got hit by a truck since you feel it was a justified result. I don't want to shoot you down but your logic is very shallow. Especially since your ignoring the fact that many who choose to have protected sex can sometimes result in a pregnancy.
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