Count Dookkake
Member
They would be surprised to see what keeping a food diary and exercise log would reveal.
I know I was.
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"Anti-obesity: The new homophobia?"
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They would be surprised to see what keeping a food diary and exercise log would reveal.
I know I was.
Yes, but it's more complicated when you look at the specifics.
1. Americans work a lot, 8 or more hours a day. As we've transitioned into a service based economy and with the advancement of technology, we're not that physical during the hours. Thus, we spend a huge chunk of the day not working and then we come home tired. Most people just don't have the energy (willpower) to go to the gym after/before work.
2. Raising children is a job in and of itself.
3. The most affordable food in this nation is the food that's the worst for you. It's not that carbs are bad, per se, but look at how most carb heavy food is built around being eaten with incredibly fat items. Your body is set up to burn through carbs first before it touches the lipids. So, as the economy as has tanked, people haven't had the funds to buy the food they should be eating.
4. The supplement industry is unregulated leading to advertisers using models on steroids to sell products. I shouldn't have to explain how this can be a problem to people trying to make gains.
5. Gyms cost money, reduction in economy, yadda yadda. Same with trainers.
6. Health care is expensive, so even if a person had a condition causing the gain they'd never know about it.
7. Vast amounts of misinformation about the subject. (you need to work out hours a day, using barbells will make ladies bulky, protein and carbs get converted into fat easily, etc.)
So, while the mechanics of losing weight are simple (a reduction in 500-1000 calories per day below your BMR achieved by either working out or a reduction in food will net you around 1-2lbs per week of weight loss for most people), the actual act of it is pretty much against the way our society is currently set up.
Devolution
Member
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't think that genetics are generally offered forth as a primary cause of obesity on the macro-level. However, it is sometimes offered forth as a reason that should be considered before deriding someone with "LOL, why don't you take the stairs and give up your pie fatty" condescension.
Saw a fat lady at the grocery store shopping, using one of those electrical carts since it's too difficult for her to walk around. Kinda sad, for a moment.
Then she goes to the soda fountain in the deli and fills up a 44oz cup of Coca-Cola. You have to be shitting me. You're too fat to even go grocery shopping, yet you can't help but drink a bucket of sugar as a machine aids you in a task that is almost effortless for most people?
It's like watching a jaundiced drunk fall off a barstool then get up and demand another shot of whiskey. I can recognize that such utter lack of self control is tragic, but hard to sympathize with or feel bad about.
Then she goes to the soda fountain in the deli and fills up a 44oz cup of Coca-Cola. You have to be shitting me. You're too fat to even go grocery shopping, yet you can't help but drink a bucket of sugar as a machine aids you in a task that is almost effortless for most people?
It's like watching a jaundiced drunk fall off a barstool then get up and demand another shot of whiskey. I can recognize that such utter lack of self control is tragic, but hard to sympathize with or feel bad about.
Count Dookkake
Member
The rise of the lard cart is a terrible thing.
Is being overweight mostly your fault? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the condescension directed at overweight people is way out of line and completely counter-productive. Is it so hard to apply a modicum of understanding and sympathy rather than going straight to derision?
I like this.
I like this.
Being an asshole against fat people is a not a good thing. It can also be bigotry.
but criticism of choices or telling them to change habits is not necessarilly the same although the volume can also be an issue. It can be in which case it is wrong, if your way to criticize is to be a complete dick then what you are doing is not good.
A simple issue to me.
People try not to be dicks.
As for healthcare, obesity does affect your health it is not an imaginary condition with imaginary consequences.
I think the article is clearly wrong and takes it too far but there is some dose of truth in it about what motivates some anti fat thinking and how excessive it can be.
My experiences which were only strengthened by viewing many terrible posts of many neogaf users is that a whole lot of people have a tendency to be assholes. Eventually some groups become protected but people move on to more acceptable targets although there is less dickishness perharps overall, the tendecy is just to pick a new target than completely change behavior. So instead of all people becoming a non bigot they just change targets. Now overall asshole levels in society can be reduced by protecting certain abused groups even if you don't manage to make the world perfect about all of them this is my view I strongly support, however being an asshole just like life always seems to find a way to persist. But just as one previous sentence says does not mean the fights against it were not successful and made it lesser.
but criticism of choices or telling them to change habits is not necessarilly the same although the volume can also be an issue. It can be in which case it is wrong, if your way to criticize is to be a complete dick then what you are doing is not good.
A simple issue to me.
People try not to be dicks.
As for healthcare, obesity does affect your health it is not an imaginary condition with imaginary consequences.
I think the article is clearly wrong and takes it too far but there is some dose of truth in it about what motivates some anti fat thinking and how excessive it can be.
My experiences which were only strengthened by viewing many terrible posts of many neogaf users is that a whole lot of people have a tendency to be assholes. Eventually some groups become protected but people move on to more acceptable targets although there is less dickishness perharps overall, the tendecy is just to pick a new target than completely change behavior. So instead of all people becoming a non bigot they just change targets. Now overall asshole levels in society can be reduced by protecting certain abused groups even if you don't manage to make the world perfect about all of them this is my view I strongly support, however being an asshole just like life always seems to find a way to persist. But just as one previous sentence says does not mean the fights against it were not successful and made it lesser.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Sizism is definitely an issue, yes. Being anti-sizist isn't about being pro-obesity or even pro-fat, but about respecting peoples' autonomy and agency, and not shaming them for how they look or eat.
The obesity epidemic is largely a cultural and medical problem.
Based on research:
1. The brain regulates body fat homeostasis.
2. The brain uses attenuates hunger when body fat homeostasis has been reached.
3. The brain's control of body fat can be disregulated by disruptive food qualities (texture, temperature, color, social setting, specific ques like glutamate/sweet/etc)
This is incomplete science that needs more study, but it fits observational data. The idea of running outside did not exist in any remotely popular context prior to Dr Kenneth Cooper's Aerobics in the 1960s, nor did the exercise field Aerobics. Cooper coined the term. This was an age of automobiles, so even in America the idea that not exercising enough is a cause of obesity doesn't fit, let alone several examples of exceptionally thin nations that don't exercise much like Japan.
So given this evidence, I don't see how blaming people for not understanding this is productive. Especially considering how much our government supports junk food starting in public schools. If the food reward hypothesis of obesity is correct, then susceptible people are fucked in America as soon as they start watching TV ads.
I also say cultural problem because every damn event is about over-consuming food. People bring in cakes, pies, candy that their wife or whatever made and refusing to accept their gift of obesity is rude.
Oh, but that said it's not at all like the discrimination against homosexuality. Not to take away from it's senselessness though.
Based on research:
1. The brain regulates body fat homeostasis.
2. The brain uses attenuates hunger when body fat homeostasis has been reached.
3. The brain's control of body fat can be disregulated by disruptive food qualities (texture, temperature, color, social setting, specific ques like glutamate/sweet/etc)
This is incomplete science that needs more study, but it fits observational data. The idea of running outside did not exist in any remotely popular context prior to Dr Kenneth Cooper's Aerobics in the 1960s, nor did the exercise field Aerobics. Cooper coined the term. This was an age of automobiles, so even in America the idea that not exercising enough is a cause of obesity doesn't fit, let alone several examples of exceptionally thin nations that don't exercise much like Japan.
So given this evidence, I don't see how blaming people for not understanding this is productive. Especially considering how much our government supports junk food starting in public schools. If the food reward hypothesis of obesity is correct, then susceptible people are fucked in America as soon as they start watching TV ads.
I also say cultural problem because every damn event is about over-consuming food. People bring in cakes, pies, candy that their wife or whatever made and refusing to accept their gift of obesity is rude.
Oh, but that said it's not at all like the discrimination against homosexuality. Not to take away from it's senselessness though.
I imagin a lot of obese people are depressed about their current situation, which doesn't help at all, comfort eating and all that.
Is this directed at me? I never claimed that it was my genes. What I claimed is that I don't actively diet. Many people don't seem to grasp this: In order to lose weight eating right or healthy isn't enough, you need to eat less than what an ordinary people eats. I eat like a normal person, so I don't lose or gain weight.
Escape Goat
Member
I did not quote you, no.
The solution must be to belittle them at every opportunity and talk about how they're horrible people. That should help and not just make things worse, right?
Monty Mole
Member
But save on pensions.
Femmeworth
Banned
Indeed, sugar in general isn't good for us.
Etrian Oddity
Member
I forget the title, but my favorite part of a documentary was where this obese lady said she'd tried counting calories, going low-carb, and exercising, and she just couldn't drop any weight.
Literally the next shot after she said that was her scooping an entire bucket of Cool Whip into a monstrous pastry concocted of strawberries, jelly, and god knows what else.
I lol'd.
HAL_Laboratory
Member
Hell no. Just... no.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
So here is what I've had to eat today:
1 16 oz whole milk latte, unsweetened
2 breaded chicken tenders/fillets with 1tbsp okonomi sauce
1 can of pepsi
30oz of water
and right now for dinner like 2 cups of some kind of casserole that seems to be made of penne, celery, cream of celery, stuffing, and a bit of mozz on top, which I'm having with a cup of coffee.
This is probably all I'll eat today. I feel as though I ate like shit, because I pretty much did (this stuff is garbage), though the caloric intake probably isn't that bad. All I really did today was mow the lawn so I don't need much.
Why do I share? Because I imagine for some people this would be considered insufferable starvation. That blows my mind.
1 16 oz whole milk latte, unsweetened
2 breaded chicken tenders/fillets with 1tbsp okonomi sauce
1 can of pepsi
30oz of water
and right now for dinner like 2 cups of some kind of casserole that seems to be made of penne, celery, cream of celery, stuffing, and a bit of mozz on top, which I'm having with a cup of coffee.
This is probably all I'll eat today. I feel as though I ate like shit, because I pretty much did (this stuff is garbage), though the caloric intake probably isn't that bad. All I really did today was mow the lawn so I don't need much.
Why do I share? Because I imagine for some people this would be considered insufferable starvation. That blows my mind.
General health is an issue for society. America has completely failed at this. Sugar is something that's easy to cater to people. It has an addictive factor, it's incredibly easy to like, and the brain tells you "this is awesome" when you eat it. The brain also says "this isn't awesome, get me some more" when you don't eat it.
But still, without blaming this at anything specific, what has happened in the US is that things are only driven by cost. Many things point to corn syrup being a horrible, horrible sweetener, but it's cheaper than sugar, so use that instead. And the whole industry is so big, because who doesn't love a chocolate now and then? Aren't we allowed junk food once in a while? Most of us enjoy it, but we know it's not good and/or feel like shit afterwards, and stay away from it to varying degrees.
So the industry grows. And they lobby. The corn industry is subsidized by the government, and twice as much corn as is needed is made yearly. Let's shift focus away from the society's responsibility (directly) and look at companies themselves. They have such a good cash flow that they can throw a lot of money at advertising. Healthy counterparts just can't. Let alone the fact that the healthiest things are the things you make yourself.
I think this is one of those times where someone that's not thinking about how much you can make off of something should come in and restrict these things. Money is a great driving factor for a lot of things, but health really shouldn't be one of them. What really annoys me is that a friend of mine, that I know would say otherwise, also shifts the blame to the individual, saying "just because it's advertised, doesn't mean you have to go out and buy a chocolate" - and here is where what you said comes in.
Society is much better suited for the role of health caretaker, because putting in the right foundations for a healthy society is an objective goal, and fixing your own health once it's askew is a subjective and often very, very demanding thing to do. We can, even maybe rightfully, blame society for being fat, but that doesn't mean we should. In the end this is our life. We shouldn't sit back and say "well, society fucked me up" and just continue down a destructive path. When society fails, you should care enough for your body to take matters into your own hands. Maybe research what those preservatives and sugars are doing to your body. Figure out how much fat and carbs is in meats you eat.
Society is the problem, but finding a way to help individuals even though society fails is key. And things like "fat rights" is just a joke to that. Sure, you can pout that you have a right to be fat. You have a right do kill yourself, too. It's your body, we're not going to force you to be healthy. But just don't act like you want it this way. That's what disgusts me. When you start with such arguments that fat was beautiful in Rome, then you're justifying that you are fat. It's not justifiable. Be happy with who you are, but strive to better yourself.
Most fat people have the option to say, "Hey. I think I'll lose weight starting to day." Homosexuals can't say, "Hey. I think I'll stop being sexual attracted to [gender] today." Being fat is a choice 99% of the time. Being homosexual isn't. Ergo, I reserve the right to criticize fat people just the same as I can criticize smokers.
StealthGoblin
Banned
We have a socialist healthcare system here, so I dislike any personal choices people make that seriously put strain on our health budget (obesity, smoking etc)
Saying "you chose to be fat" or "you choose to stay fat" really isn't a helpful approach. Many people out there have hard working jobs, and important jobs that society couldn't be without. If their lives have been such a way that they haven't had the power to do that job, then come home and be healthy, especially in a society where the only quick food you can get is unhealthy. Where the things you'll end up eating on a day you come home exhausted, and can't gather the strength to even think about making dinner, is something that'll ensure you stay fat.
Refusing to understanding how someone can have allowed themselves to become fat won't help anything. Because the worst thing for someone that's allowed something that, by objective definition, shouldn't have happened, is meeting ridicule rather than support. Whenever I see someone obese work out at the gym, I always think "great stuff". You can say you want to mock people that continue to not do anything about it, but the day you've mocked someone that's lost 30 lbs but still is obese, is the day you're just detrimental, just mean.
If that is the case, you should also blame society. Don't blame the people, because your society doesn't. You're a part of a society that takes care of those who needs it, then you're a part of that. You can't just say "everyone that needs it, except you".
Devolution
Member
Just gonna echo the sentiments in this post by requoting it.
Goddammit?
StealthGoblin
Banned
No no no. Smokers and Obesity through choice (after all some people cannot help it) as well as other self inflicted conditions are going too far. If these people, who do have a choice in the matter, didn't get fat or smoke and put themselves at risk of expensive healthcare problems then we could spend the money on people who get cancers they did nothing to contribute to the forming of.
It is the duty of the citizen to take care of themselves in matters in which they have a critical choice for.
I think the initial low cost of junk food combined with exposure at a young age is a deadly combination.
In food reward studies on rats, they find that once the rats are exposed to the "cafeteria chow" (junk food) they will ignore regular chow next to them and traverse paths with electrical shock to get to the "cafeteria chow". It's the same with humans I've noticed. Once someone is addicted to fast food, they will ignore the relatively healthy food next to them and spend tons of time going out to get fast food or pizza. And it's more expensive than relatively healthy food made quickly at home.
I say initial low cost because:
1. Kids get $2 shit lunches at public schools
2. Poorer kids families eat from coupon books, which is stuff like cereal, juice, "yogurt", frozen pizzas, and other junk food.
I think you prohibit the exposure at a young age and do something like what France does for school lunches, and you just might have kids make it to college without being obese.
Like people that started smoking back when it was completely safe? It's too arbitrary of a line. It's not OK to take care of some people with problems, and not others. No one has the power to say "your obesity is a result of society" and "you're just fat".
The foundation of welfare is helping those in need. Once you make an exception is a slippery slope to not taking care of anyone. You mention cancer. What food item over the last 10 years haven't been debated to cause cancer? Doesn't radon possibly cause cancer? This is what happened to American insurance. "Pre-existing condition, we're not giving you money". If carrots are shown to cause cancer, you can ask your insurance claimers if they've eaten carrots, then say "sorry, you did this yourself".
That's not welfare.
Devolution
Member
When my mom was shopping around for health insurance they took any trip to the doctor as a sign of a pre-existing condition for something just to up the rate. They did for fucking acne cream I got once.
School lunches should be provided and actually made healthy choices. It would definitely take out the poor vs rich equation, and at least make sure they have one solid meal a day.
I really wouldn't mind the government regulating it more, though they would first have to stop subsidizing corn and put a Tax on HFCS.
I really wouldn't mind the government regulating it more, though they would first have to stop subsidizing corn and put a Tax on HFCS.
While I understand where you're coming from, at the end of the day, being fat is still a choose in almost all cases. I realize that many people have exhaustive lives and that unhealthy fast food is both cheap and convenient. Personally, I'm in pretty good shape. My body fat % is hovering around 12% right now and I've had to work my ass off for the last year to get it there and I'm still trying to get it even lower.
A lot of fat people don't even try to lose weight. Those are the ones that I have the most negative feelings toward. I mean, when I go out to eat at Applebee's and see a fat family in the booth next to me ordering a ton of the worse stuff on the menu, I can't help but shake my head. You can't tell me that most fat people are completely oblivious to the consequences of their actions. Being fat in most cases is and always will be a choice. And until more of them can mentally get over that fact, they'll stay that way.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Well that is dumb. For most people, diet/exercise controls weight, and that is a choice.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Things are quite good in the UK. I'm a Primary school teacher and eat the same meals as the children for lunch. A lot more healthier than when I was at school.
Can't go wrong with a freshly cooked roast dinner every Thursday.
You think the kids that are part of the growing childhood obesity epidemic choose to be fat? You think the people working two jobs and only have time/money for fast food chose to be fat as well? Have you looked at what the American government has done to our country's suggested diet in the past forty years? Have you compared the food costs for groceries in the supermarket for raw foods versus boxed foods and the time each takes to prepare?
There's a problem, yes. But let's stop saying that people chose to be a particular way. It's no wonder these people are so scared to go work out, or go walk, or try to be better when people don't see the forest through the trees.
MrChocolate
Member
KefkaPalazzo
Member
Speaking as both a gay male and someone who was nearly 300 lbs during his early high school years and is now 180. I gotta say this is moronic, one of the 2 is bad for you and something you can typically control...the other is not.
I'm losing weight even though I probably don't leave the house most days and no strenuous exercise.
Wow, she sure sounds like a perfectly rational person, making an informed decision.
"Insulin stops the use of fat as an energy source by inhibiting the release of glucagon." Exercise can have a role in preventing insulin resistance but is practically worthless for losing weight.
Diatribe1974
Member
For the insanely small % of fat people who are truly genetically cursed to be fat, you have my condolences as there's little you can do (naturally) to avoid your fate. For the other 99% of the fat fuckers out there, put the twinkies down motherfuckers and just say no to 1 more slice of pie! Seriously, trying to compare Anti-Obesity to Homophobia is complete and utter bullshit and those who think that they're comparable need drug out into the street and shot because we don't need anyone else thinking this way. If anything, this kind of thinking hurts gay men & women as it then puts the idea in some moron's head that "Hey, if fat people just change their ways and they can lose the weight, then perhaps gay people can change & be straight!" (seriously, there will be some people who'll think this crap).
Trent Strong
Banned
This is just so very wrong.
Hating on fatties is much less about wanting to improve the lifestyle and fitness of fatties... than it is about the fact that people are wretched creatures that thrive on fear and hate.
Like really... those powerful emotions are completely understandable and extremely useful in the context of a every man and dog for himself natural world in which our predecessors evolved.
But counterproductive for a relatively peaceful egalitarian society that we find ourselves to currently be in.
Of course now that we've riled against pretty much every form of silly discrimination, haters are ever looking for 'legitimate' reasons to engage in some of that delicious cortical stimulation that they get from hate.
Protip to haters: Hate on hating. It's pretty legit AND useful.
Like really... those powerful emotions are completely understandable and extremely useful in the context of a every man and dog for himself natural world in which our predecessors evolved.
But counterproductive for a relatively peaceful egalitarian society that we find ourselves to currently be in.
Of course now that we've riled against pretty much every form of silly discrimination, haters are ever looking for 'legitimate' reasons to engage in some of that delicious cortical stimulation that they get from hate.
Protip to haters: Hate on hating. It's pretty legit AND useful.
MrToughPants
Brian Burke punched my mom
lol
CoffeeJanitor
Member
It depends. If he means strictly cardio, then he is basically correct. If he means cardio and strength training, the latter being the most important aspect of weight loss, then he is wrong.
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