Microsoft Surface Tablet announced

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brotkasten said:
You're not seriously saying that it looks like an iPhone 4/S, do you?

If that's the case, then I guess the Galaxy Nexus looks like an iPhone too, because the front is black and the rest got some silver/gray color. And it's a rectangle.

Clearly, it must be an iPhone clone.
Click to expand...

A black rectangle with rounded edges, a full glass front, a metal strip running around the side, and rounded metal buttons on the side. The back is different, but I think it's a lot closer to the iPhone than most designs on the market. And it's definitely going for the same high class look with very similar materials. The Galaxy Nexus has a lot more curves and bumps and dents (but you're aware of that)

But it's still a fan render, isn't it? So I guess it represents the wishes of WP users looking for something in the vein of an iPhone more than the intentions of MS. I'll wait and see.

Note: I don't think it's ugly. I just don't see anything exciting about it. Looks like a nice business phone.
 
brotkasten said:
You're not seriously saying that it looks like an iPhone 4/S, do you?

If that's the case, then I guess the Galaxy Nexus looks like an iPhone too, because the front is black and the rest got some silver/gray color. And it's a rectangle.

Clearly, it must be an iPhone clone.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call it a clone, because that word has negative connotation and implies iPhone design was original
but this render is flat, has sharp lines and silver sides. Looks like a lot like iPhone.
And Galaxy Nexus looks like most Samsung phones.
It's not like you can made a wildly original smartphone anyway, so I don't have mind similiar lookind devices

Altough...if something looks good what's the problem is having similiar design a year later? or give years later? Personally don't treat my electronic devices as jewerly. If I find a design I like I have no problemn sticking with it for years. I mean dude, I'm a Thinkpad loyalist :)

If you don't like the curved Lumia line you can always get 820 after all. Personaly I liked Luma 800 shape and I'm glad they're continuing similiar style in the next gen.
 
brotkasten said:
xbZie.jpg
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I'd get it.
 
Amazon is stealing an entire software stack, there's no way the W8 tablets from anyone are hitting decent prices.
 
I still wish all high end tablets would do the amazon 4g lte thing though..... thats a pretty great deal for doing basic stuff on the go as a base package.
 
Because when you get a chance to announce an unfinished tablet months before anyone can even touch it and while allowing every other shipping competitor to overshadow you with features and aggressive pricepoints, you gotta take that chance.

steve-ballmer-suit.jpg
 
brotkasten said:
And people wonder why Microsoft didn't reveal and prices for the Surface.

RbQas.jpg


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Your move, Microsoft.
Click to expand...
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
 
eastmen said:
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
Click to expand...

Apparently the OS is based on ICS this time.
 
eastmen said:
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
Click to expand...

Definitely.


Unrelated, Can I have some of your crack?
 
Copernicus said:
Definitely.


Unrelated, Can I have some of your crack?
Click to expand...

What's the matter ? What do you think is in the rt that's going to make the price points impossible. Its simple a tegra 3 or tegra 3 + with 32 storage . The screen is only 768 so it should cost less than the 8.9 1920x1200 screen on the kindle. The ram amounts will be the same also.


I don't actually see anything in the surface rt that will make it more expensive to produce than the kindle fire. Intact it could actually be cheaper
 
eastmen said:
What's the matter ? What do you think is in the rt that's going to make the price points impossible. Its simple a tegra 3 or tegra 3 + with 32 storage . The screen is only 768 so it should cost less than the 8.9 1920x1200 screen on the kindle. The ram amounts will be the same also.


I don't actually see anything in the surface rt that will make it more expensive to produce than the kindle fire. Intact it could actually be cheaper
Click to expand...

Maybe because MS doesn't want to give away Windows and Office for free?
 
The two devices don't quite have the same focus. Apple certainly has the advantage on price and integration of all those amazon services. But Windows 8 will have an advantage on apps (though not immediately).

Right now apps aren't the focus for the Kindle Fire. There are some fragmentation issues and apps have to be in the amazon app store in addition to the google app store. We haven't seen many Android tablet apps.
Microsoft may start at next to no apps, but I'm guessing there will be plenty and they will all be made for tablet.
 
eastmen said:
What's the matter ? What do you think is in the rt that's going to make the price points impossible. Its simple a tegra 3 or tegra 3 + with 32 storage . The screen is only 768 so it should cost less than the 8.9 1920x1200 screen on the kindle. The ram amounts will be the same also.


I don't actually see anything in the surface rt that will make it more expensive to produce than the kindle fire. Intact it could actually be cheaper
Click to expand...

What's the difference between Tegra 3 and 3+?
 
maeh2k said:
The two devices don't quite have the same focus. Apple certainly has the advantage on price and integration of all those amazon services. But Windows 8 will have an advantage on apps (though not immediately).

Right now apps aren't the focus for the Kindle Fire. There are some fragmentation issues and apps have to be in the amazon app store in addition to the google app store. We haven't seen many Android tablet apps.
Microsoft may start at next to no apps, but I'm guessing there will be plenty and they will all be made for tablet.
Click to expand...

None of this matters when both devices are on sale this holiday.
 
eastmen said:
What's the matter ? What do you think is in the rt that's going to make the price points impossible. Its simple a tegra 3 or tegra 3 + with 32 storage . The screen is only 768 so it should cost less than the 8.9 1920x1200 screen on the kindle. The ram amounts will be the same also.


I don't actually see anything in the surface rt that will make it more expensive to produce than the kindle fire. Intact it could actually be cheaper
Click to expand...

Amazon's not selling the tablets for traditional retail profit, they're doing it for users and making their money on subscriptions and content.

OEM's don't have luxury, they can't sell tablets close to cost just to get people to use Windows 8, it's not their perogative. Having to pay for a license already cuts heavy into their margin.

Microsoft could do it, but that's a huge 'fuck you' to their partners.
 
Copernicus said:
Amazon's not selling the tablets for traditional retail profit, they're doing it for users and making their money on subscriptions and content.

OEM's don't have luxury, they can't sell tablets close to cost just to get people to use Windows 8, it's not their perogative. Having to pay for a license already cuts heavy into their margin.

Microsoft could do it, but that's a huge 'fuck you' to their partners.
Click to expand...
ms hardly cares or they wouldn't have entered the market. The oems will have other ways of attracting customers with features the surface lacks like higher red screens extended batter keyboards and the like
 
Copernicus said:
Amazon's not selling the tablets for traditional retail profit, they're doing it for users and making their money on subscriptions and content.

OEM's don't have luxury, they can't sell tablets close to cost just to get people to use Windows 8, it's not their perogative. Having to pay for a license already cuts heavy into their margin.

Microsoft could do it, but that's a huge 'fuck you' to their partners.
Click to expand...

Well put.
 
eastmen said:
ms hardly cares or they wouldn't have entered the market. The oems will have other ways of attracting customers with features the surface lacks like higher red screens extended batter keyboards and the like
Click to expand...

They don't actually care, I agree, but they won't be throwing them under the bust for at least another year.

Surface 2 will probably be a cut throat priced, but only because everyone else is already doing it.
 
brotkasten said:
None of this matters when both devices are on sale this holiday.
Click to expand...

True. I fully expect the Kindle to sell more than any single Windows 8 tablet and there's a chance it might outsell them all (slightly).
But at some point Windows 8 tablets have a shot at replacing existing PCs for quite a lot of people. The Kindle doesn't. I think over time, with Windows 8 getting more apps, this will become clearer and that Windows 8 on tablets won't be hurt by the Kindle.
 
Copernicus said:
They don't actually care, I agree, but they won't be throwing them under the bust for at least another year.

Surface 2 will probably be a cut throat priced, but only because everyone else is already doing it.
Click to expand...
I disagree. This is the year for cut throat prices and if they get enough rt sold they can start the price creep to higher ones.

If they don't sell enough rt products then rt will die
 
brotkasten said:
You're not seriously saying that it looks like an iPhone 4/S, do you?

If that's the case, then I guess the Galaxy Nexus looks like an iPhone too, because the front is black and the rest got some silver/gray color. And it's a rectangle.

Clearly, it must be an iPhone clone.
Click to expand...

Oh come on, that render is clearly inspired by the iphone 4.

eastmen said:
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
Click to expand...

No way in hell the Surface comes out at $300, let alone $200.
 
That Amazon tab is not nearly as appealing as the Surface machine but I'm sure they will sale a shit load on price alone or at least Amazon will claim they have.
 
eastmen said:
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
Click to expand...

$200 - $300 is a non starter for RT, Google and Amazon can do that because their respective tablets are gateways to their stores. Microsoft can only do so if they lock down their device to only install from their store. Which at this time does not sell music, books or movies again areas where Google, Amazon and Apple will make their money back all that is just the classic console gaming proposition subsidized hardware we make it back on services.

Apart from their new store which again only sells apps at the moment where else can they make it back? Will people flock to purchase a tablet that has no content?


^Again MS will have some kind of license fee there if they are waiving it, this would point to them having a content store of some kind in the works
 
eastmen said:
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
Click to expand...

To be fair, Amazon is positioning the Kindle Fire as a "service", rather than a standalone tablet. You're not buying a tablet, you're buying into the Amazon ecosystem.
 
colinisation said:
$200 - $300 is a non starter for RT, Google and Amazon can do that because their respective tablets are gateways to their stores. Microsoft can only do so if they lock down their device to only install from their store.
Click to expand...
RT is pretty much locked down to their store.

Apart from their new store which again only sells apps at the moment where else can they make it back? Will people flock to purchase a tablet that has no content?
Click to expand...

They also have Xbox music and Xbox video that'll allow people to buy plenty of music and movies.
 
colinisation said:
$200 - $300 is a non starter for RT, Google and Amazon can do that because their respective tablets are gateways to their stores. Microsoft can only do so if they lock down their device to only install from their store. Which at this time does not sell music, books or movies again areas where Google, Amazon and Apple will make their money back all that is just the classic console gaming proposition subsidized hardware we make it back on services.

Apart from their new store which again only sells apps at the moment where else can they make it back? Will people flock to purchase a tablet that has no content?


^Again MS will have some kind of license fee there if they are waiving it, this would point to them having a content store of some kind in the works
Click to expand...

http://www.neowin.net/news/windows-store-now-has-over-1000-windows-8-apps


http://zune.net/en-US/

I guess the Windows Store and Zune doesn't exist and isn't a huge part of MS's strategy .

I guess when MS is making 20%-30% an app they can't afford to subsidise the tablets that will be the gateway to the store.

Only amazon , google and apple can do that.


MS Store , Zune or whatever its named will bring in the revenue just like the other companys are doing.


lunarworks said:
To be fair, Amazon is positioning the Kindle Fire as a "service", rather than a standalone tablet. You're not buying a tablet, you're buying into the Amazon ecosystem.
Click to expand...

MS is doing the same. Your buying into the Eco system
 
colinisation said:
$200 - $300 is a non starter for RT, Google and Amazon can do that because their respective tablets are gateways to their stores. Microsoft can only do so if they lock down their device to only install from their store. Which at this time does not sell music, books or movies again areas where Google, Amazon and Apple will make their money back all that is just the classic console gaming proposition subsidized hardware we make it back on services.

Apart from their new store which again only sells apps at the moment where else can they make it back? Will people flock to purchase a tablet that has no content?


^Again MS will have some kind of license fee there if they are waiving it, this would point to them having a content store of some kind in the works
Click to expand...

MS has Music and video stores. They are the same stores they have on Zune on Xbox. W8 comes pre installed with those stores too.
 
maeh2k said:
True. I fully expect the Kindle to sell more than any single Windows 8 tablet and there's a chance it might outsell them all (slightly).
But at some point Windows 8 tablets have a shot at replacing existing PCs for quite a lot of people. The Kindle doesn't. I think over time, with Windows 8 getting more apps, this will become clearer and that Windows 8 on tablets won't be hurt by the Kindle.
Click to expand...

I don't know thats a hard one to figure out Are we talking just Windows RT tablets or both windows RT/ Pro and are we talking the full kindle line or just the new tablets. I don't know if they can compete with $60 kindles and $140 kindle fires.
 
eastmen said:
the surface is already a better product. I've been very disappointed in the amazon announcements today. $300 for an android 2.3 device with 16 gigs of ram ? I bet you can't even add a sd card. The surface blows this away in every metric aside from screen resolution. A $200 to $300 surface will be the better value
Click to expand...

That'd be pretty okay.
 
eastmen said:
I guess the Windows Store and Zune doesn't exist and isn't a huge part of MS's strategy .

I guess when MS is making 20%-30% an app they can't afford to subsidise the tablets that will be the gateway to the store.

Only amazon , google and apple can do that.


MS Store , Zune or whatever its named will bring in the revenue just like the other companys are doing.
Click to expand...

Looking at Apple, their store doesn't really bring in much. They can't afford to subsidize tablet because a) the store won't make much money and more importantly b) it would impact negatively on the Windows OEMs, who just can't subsidize their devices.

Windows is also more service-agnostic. Just because it comes with Xbox Music, does not mean people will just use that to purchase music. People are used to use different services on Windows such as iTunes. Other companies like Amazon can just put their apps on Windows 8 and use the free in-app purchases.
 
maeh2k said:
Looking at Apple, their store doesn't really bring in much. They can't afford to subsidize tablet because a) the store won't make much money and more importantly b) it would impact negatively on the Windows OEMs, who just can't subsidize their devices.

Windows is also more service-agnostic. Just because it comes with Xbox Music, does not mean people will just use that to purchase music. People are used to use different services on Windows such as iTunes. Other companies like Amazon can just put their apps on Windows 8 and use the free in-app purchases.
Click to expand...

On windows RT zune/app store will be the biggest draws.

Apple has a diffrent busniess model because they can sell the hardware at a high cost . In the tablet space MS isn't able to do that . They have to take an amazon aproach where the hardware is cheaper so more people are locked into their services
 
eastmen said:
On windows RT zune/app store will be the biggest draws.

Apple has a diffrent busniess model because they can sell the hardware at a high cost . In the tablet space MS isn't able to do that . They have to take an amazon aproach where the hardware is cheaper so more people are locked into their services
Click to expand...

I doubt Zune will be a great draw. Other services can just as easily offer their apps.

Apps certainly. But they will be more of a draw when it comes to choosing Windows 8 over competing platforms and not to make a lot of money by themselves. Microsoft won't make much from those. Even on the iPhone, where paid apps are more common than on e.g. Android, and where tons of people have credit card information stored, they don't make that much off it. They have high costs for providing the store and most apps that will be downloaded will be free.

Right now MS can't win on price. I quote from http://ceklog.kindel.com/2012/08/29/a-199-surface-i-will-wear-a-mullet/
The current Windows business model is very profitable. PROFITABLE. Not just big revenue but PROFIT. As in $11.4 BILLON in FY12. Do you understand the difference between revenue and profit? Steve Ballmer does.

I don’t know what the current per PC Windows license is. I know what it was about 8 years ago when I was in the Windows business. I don’t think I can disclose that number due to confidentiality. But we can back into something reasonable by assuming what OEMs pay is ‘wholesale’ and use the generally accepted wholesale->retail price multiplier of 40%. Windows 7 Premium’s MSRP is $199 thus the wholesale price is probably about $80. Probably a good proxy for what OEMs pay.

8 years ago that price was a LOT higher. 15 years ago it was even higher.

Linux (and Android) had a horrific effect on the Windows business model by forcing this price erosion. Why? Because those products were free and they enabled OEMs to negotiate a lower price on Windows with Microsoft. Moores law and the resulting plummeting cost of hardware didn’t help either. SteveB knows there is nothing he can do to STOP this erosion. It will eventually approach $0. But he would be insane to accelerate this erosion. In fact, Microsoft shareholders expect him to do whatever he can to slow it.

Undercutting the Windows partners who will make 99.99914% of the PCs that ship next year will do NOTHING for Microsoft’s business but accelerate the price erosion of Windows eradicating the $11B in profit it generates.
Click to expand...


IMO, the biggest and most important differentiator Windows 8 has now is, that not too far in the future, it can replace any PC in ways the competition cannot.
I don't think a lot of people will choose WinRT over the cheaper, subsidized or the more popular competition this holiday season.
 
MS has some wiggle room with their profit margins, they could lower OEM license costs if it was necessary to become relevant in the new tablet space. Could be justifiable to stock holders due to the app and media stores, which has some potential to mitigate that margin erosion. Especially the RT space where margins of the major competitors are tight. I would almost imagine they might have similar licensing to WP for those devices. The only counter to that would be that they are throwing Office in with them, then again, WP has Office on it. Different, I know, but there are some parallels.
 
maeh2k said:
IMO, the biggest and most important differentiator Windows 8 has now is, that not too far in the future, it can replace any PC in ways the competition cannot.
I don't think a lot of people will choose WinRT over the cheaper, subsidized or the more popular competition this holiday season.
Click to expand...

I am choosing a winRT device.... I think many others will as well. The RT devices have a number of advantages over the x86 options that make it useful as a mobile device over x86. Now I am putting faith than the store will come along and get good apps... if not it will be easy to sell the surface and go to surface pro. I can see a good number of people choosing RT (as many as any other tablet out there this fall).
 
I'll probably be going with a Surface RT also. It'll primarily be a tablet for me, so I don't need an x86. I'd consider an Atom based tablet, but there doesn't seem to be anything as nice as the Surface :P
 
No need for a x86 tablet for me yet, just bought a Win 7 laptop last year...no need to replace it yet. I'll also be getting a RT tablet.

Right now its between the Surface and Samsung Ativ. Leaning towards Ativ because of the Snapdragon S4 chip.
 
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