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It's got like 20 issues. It has all the issues that lead up to it like Uncanny 300 when they fight the acolytes and find Magneto's helmet and the first two X-Men Unlimited issues where Magneto returns from the dead. No holograms though :(.

Oh that's not a bad deal then at all.
I seem to remember the Havok hologram on X-Factor #92 being pretty awesome.
 
I understand why it was done. They had Magneto rip out his adamantium in the main X-Men comic and the writer of Wolverine had to deal with the consequences. Obviously he was going to find a way to keep things relatively the same (until they made him turn wolverine into an animal). It just didn't jive at all with what had been written before. That's a hallmark of Wolverine backstory though I guess LOL.

My biggest gripe with Wolverine is with the stuff they did post House of M. Before that Marvel handling of him was just mediocre for quite some time. I think Wolverine started to go downhill by the end or after Larry Hama's run.

The original Origins mini wasn't that bad. It existed as a stand alone story giving a little bit of insight on Logan's past but without completely demystifying the character.

Then House of M came and Logan suddenly remembered everything about his past (well everything until they decide to invent another awful thing like what Jeph Loeb is doing).

If they made his past actually nice and interesting I still would believe it was the wrong decision but it could be a cool story, but Daniel Way made an awful job on the Wolverine Origins ongoing.

Wolverine's son could be a good character, I mean it's natural that a guy who has been around for at least 100 years had at least a kid and he could be a hero or a villain, but Daken is just a horrible, horrible character.

And now Jeph Loeb is just finishing Marvel's job of shitting the character (BIG SPOILER)
by making Logan the creator of the Weapon X program. Poor Barry Windsor-Smith.
.

Wolverine joining the Avengers didn't have any effect at all until now on the AvX arc. He was just cover material for what? 8 fucking years?

Marvel really don't know what to do with the character. Now he is also the first X-men ever, predating even Prof. X!!! That's just fucking stupid...how could such a noble and heroic guy
be the masterming of something horrible like the Weapon X program? All this shit is happening roughly at the same time frame...
 
My biggest gripe with Wolverine is with the stuff they did post House of M. Before that Marvel handling of him was just mediocre for quite some time. I think Wolverine started to go downhill by the end or after Larry Hanna's run.

The original Origins mini wasn't that bad. It existed as a stand alone story giving a little bit of insight on Logan's past but without completely demystifying the character.

Then House of M came and Logan suddenly remembered everything about his past (well everything until they decide to invent another awful thing like what Jeph Loeb is doing).

If they made his past actually nice and interesting I still would believe it was the wrong decision but it could be a cool story, but Daniel Way made an awful job on the Wolverine Origins ongoing.

Wolverine's son could be a good character, I mean it's natural that a guy who has been around for at least 100 years had at least a kid and he could be a hero or a villain, but Daken is just a horrible, horrible character.

And now Jeph Loeb is just finishing Marvel's job of shitting the character (BIG SPOILER)
by making Logan the creator of the Weapon X program. Poor Barry Windsor-Smith.
.

Wolverine joining the Avengers didn't have any effect at all until now on the AvX arc. He was just cover material for what? 8 fucking years?

Marvel really don't know what to do with the character. Now he is also the first X-men ever, predating even Prof. X!!! That's just fucking stupid...how could such an noble an heroic guy
be the masterming of something horrible like the Weapon X program? All this shit is happening roughly at the same time frame...

Apparently Barry Windsor Smith always intended for
Apocalypse to be the guy that ran Weapon X and the guy that was on the other end of the phone during that story. I guess that made too much sense?
 
Apparently Barry Windsor Smith always intended for
Apocalypse to be the guy that ran Weapon X and the guy that was on the other end of the phone during that story. I guess that made too much sense?

I think I've heard about that, but I'm not quite sure. It certainly fits with his ideology.
I wonder if Walt Simonson knew that when he made Apocalypse enhance Warren turning him in the Archangel. Barry proposed almost the exact same thing years earlier except with Wolverine instead of Angel.
. I think it could have been really cool if they went that route.
 
I think I've heard about that, but I'm not quite sure. It certainly fits with his ideology.
I wonder if Walt Simonson knew that when he made Apocalypse enhance Warren turning him in the Archangel. Barry proposed almost the exact same thing years earlier except with Wolverine instead of Angel.
. I think it could have been really cool if they went that route.

Well the Wolverine/Poccy connection was actually originally a Claremont idea and BWS was just honoring that for when Claremont decided to reveal it. They had definitely started laying the groundwork for it though.

During Inferno Wolverine goes nuts when he picks up Apocalypse's scent on Angel:

Chris+55.gif


and then in Wolverine the Jungle Adventure when Wolverine goes into one of his lairs:

Scan0031.gif


Claremont had tons of really interesting plots he never got around to (like the Dark Wolverine Saga). It was pretty shocking how long term he planned.
 
Cable and the X Force and Avengers Arcade will be books that define the Marvel U for generations. Buy all that shit through DCBS make BenjaminBirdie humble. Plus why complain when Aquaman is leading AND fighting the Justice League?
 
Cable and the X Force and Avengers Arcade will be books that define the Marvel U for generations. Buy all that shit through DCBS make BenjaminBirdie humble. Plus why complain when Aquaman is leading AND fighting the Justice League?

because Aquaman has the personality of bread. Not even fresh bread.
 
Well the Wolverine/Poccy connection was actually originally a Claremont idea and BWS was just honoring that for when Claremont decided to reveal it. They had definitely started laying the groundwork for it though.

During Inferno Wolverine goes nuts when he picks up Apocalypse's scent on Angel:

Chris+55.gif


and then in Wolverine the Jungle Adventure when Wolverine goes into one of his lairs:

Scan0031.gif


Claremont had tons of really interesting plots he never got around to (like the Dark Wolverine Saga). It was pretty shocking how long term he planned.

I haven't heard about any of this before, what was the Dark Wolverine Saga going to be?
 
I haven't heard about any of this before, what was the Dark Wolverine Saga going to be?

Not sure how familiar you are with late 80s/early 90s X-Men comics, but in Uncanny X-Men 251 the Reavers crucify Wolverine and beat him almost to death and for the next two years worth of comics Wolverine is portrayed as really weak and it seems on the edge of death. Right around the time the new Jim Lee/Claremont X-Men book came out this got dropped. There was also a plot in Uncanny X-Men 256-ish where Psylocke gets captured by the Hand and turned into a ninja and Wolverine rescues her (not without getting captured himself first) and for the next few months it's kind of played off that some of the X-Men think she's a Hand sleeper agent and she can't be trusted. Anyway, that sort of gets dropped too (I think another writer picked it up much later).

What Claremont originally intended to happen was to have Wolverine keep getting weaker until Lady Deathstrike finally kills him in X-Men vol 3. Wolverine stays dead for a years worth of comics and in Uncanny 294 (the 200th anniversary of the New X-Men) it's revealed that Wolverine was resurrected and brainwashed by the Hand thanks to the mental conditioning they gave him when they had him captured in the Psylocke story. It turns out HE was the Hand sleeper agent and not Psylocke. Anyway, Wolverine becomes a bad guy for quite some time until Jean Grey infiltrates the hand and tries to reverse his brainwashing. This leads to a giant super hero fight where Wolverine of course snaps out of it and comes back to the X-Men.

Marvel vetoed the idea because it would mean Wolverine being out of the comics for a year and that's an unthinkable crime. That and Marvel's insistence on bringing Prof X back to the books was what lead to him leaving. It sounds like a pretty cool story to me, but then again we only know the broad details.
 
Not sure how familiar you are with late 80s/early 90s X-Men comics, but in Uncanny X-Men 251 the Reavers crucify Wolverine and beat him almost to death and for the next two years worth of comics Wolverine is portrayed as really weak and it seems on the edge of death. Right around the time the new Jim Lee/Claremont X-Men book came out this got dropped. There was also a plot in Uncanny X-Men 256-ish where Psylocke gets captured by the Hand and turned into a ninja and Wolverine rescues her (not without getting captured himself first) and for the next few months it's kind of played off that some of the X-Men think she's a Hand sleeper agent and she can't be trusted. Anyway, that sort of gets dropped too (I think another writer picked it up much later).

What Claremont originally intended to happen was to have Wolverine keep getting weaker until Lady Deathstrike finally kills him in X-Men vol 3. Wolverine stays dead for a years worth of comics and in Uncanny 294 (the 200th anniversary of the New X-Men) it's revealed that Wolverine was resurrected and brainwashed by the Hand thanks to the mental conditioning they gave him when they had him captured in the Psylocke story. It turns out HE was the Hand sleeper agent and not Psylocke. Anyway, Wolverine becomes a bad guy for quite some time until Jean Grey infiltrates the hand and tries to reverse his brainwashing. This leads to a giant super hero fight where Wolverine of course snaps out of it and comes back to the X-Men.

Marvel vetoed the idea because it would mean Wolverine being out of the comics for a year and that's an unthinkable crime. That and Marvel's insistence on bringing Prof X back to the books was what lead to him leaving. It sounds like a pretty cool story to me, but then again we only know the broad details.

So was this used as like the basis/beta idea for what would become Enemy of the State?
 
So was this used as like the basis/beta idea and got turned in Enemy of the State?

I'm not sure. The core concept of Wolverine being brainwashed by the Hand certainly isn't that original of a concept. I'm sure Millar and Claremont could have both thought of it. I know that the Dark Wolverine thing was supposed to lead into a giant Shadow King story which ended with Magneto killing Shadow King. We ended up seeing a way toned down version of that with the Muir Island Saga.
 
Not sure how familiar you are with late 80s/early 90s X-Men comics, but in Uncanny X-Men 251 the Reavers crucify Wolverine and beat him almost to death and for the next two years worth of comics Wolverine is portrayed as really weak and it seems on the edge of death. Right around the time the new Jim Lee/Claremont X-Men book came out this got dropped. There was also a plot in Uncanny X-Men 256-ish where Psylocke gets captured by the Hand and turned into a ninja and Wolverine rescues her (not without getting captured himself first) and for the next few months it's kind of played off that some of the X-Men think she's a Hand sleeper agent and she can't be trusted. Anyway, that sort of gets dropped too (I think another writer picked it up much later).

What Claremont originally intended to happen was to have Wolverine keep getting weaker until Lady Deathstrike finally kills him in X-Men vol 3. Wolverine stays dead for a years worth of comics and in Uncanny 294 (the 200th anniversary of the New X-Men) it's revealed that Wolverine was resurrected and brainwashed by the Hand thanks to the mental conditioning they gave him when they had him captured in the Psylocke story. It turns out HE was the Hand sleeper agent and not Psylocke. Anyway, Wolverine becomes a bad guy for quite some time until Jean Grey infiltrates the hand and tries to reverse his brainwashing. This leads to a giant super hero fight where Wolverine of course snaps out of it and comes back to the X-Men.

Marvel vetoed the idea because it would mean Wolverine being out of the comics for a year and that's an unthinkable crime. That and Marvel's insistence on bringing Prof X back to the books was what lead to him leaving. It sounds like a pretty cool story to me, but then again we only know the broad details.
Isn't that the storyline where Wolverine's bone claws would be revealed when Colossus ripped his adamantium ones out? And that by the end or their shared ordeal Logan and Jean were to become lovers, only Harras was so against he concocted the Scott and Jean wedding as a big FU to the departed Claremont?
 
Isn't that the storyline where Wolverine's bone claws would be revealed when Colossus ripped his adamantium ones out? And that by the end or their shared ordeal Logan and Jean were to become lovers, only Harras was so against he concocted the Scott and Jean wedding as a big FU to the departed Claremont?

I had forgotten about the Colossus thing. I had no idea the wedding was a FU though. I found Claremont's explanation of the story:

Chris Claremont said:
“Originally, my intent was to have Wolverine killed by Lady Deathstrike. His healing factor would have gone into overdrive to save him. In the meanwhile, his body would be acquired by The Hand and he would be “reborn” by them as their new Master Assassin, at which point the would lead them against the X-Men. This in turn would lead the greatest unimaginable challenge to the relationship between [Cyclops] and Jean, with who knows what kind of repercussions (short & long term), leading up to a final cathartic conclusion in Uncanny X-Men #294, and then in Uncanny X-Men #300.

Wolverine died. Jean Grey goes in and becomes his evil babe, though not really, she would be faking it. She is trying to tap into the Wolverine that is buried beneath all of The Hand’s spells. Scott and company are figuring, “Wolverine’s gone bad, we gotta put him down”. Xavier is immovably adamant about the need to save him. The need to salvage him, to bring him back to the light.

Wolvie’s healing factor went into ultra high gear, when he was “killed”, it was essentially rebuilding his heart. This is really disgusting, but his arms and legs would have rotted, as his heart healed. His conscious mind would have been kept in total suspended animation, everything would have geared towards keeping his sentiency intact and repairing his heart, everything would have been left to rot. So you would find this partially decomposed body, with a full-healed torso, at which point, the decomposed bits would begin to heal. It would take a long time and be disgusting beyond words, but ultimately he would have survived. The idea was that Wolverine really is impossible to kill. Anyway, one of the side effects of this, the healing factor is purging all non-organic matter, which means the adamantium. So what was going to happen was that it was like the Silver Surfer with hair. He’d be this blinding, shining creature with killer claws. Ultimately, the adamantium would just be part of his hair, he’d look like a silver porcupine.

At some point, he and Colossus would have a major fight, and it would have this great cover, it would be a black background with a spotlight of light and in the center of the spotlight are two sets of claws with the housings, just as if they had been ripped out of his arms and one of the claws would be broken. What was going to happen in that issue was that Colossus was just going to pull the claws off from their roots.

So The Hand would then give him artificial claws, they would work or not work as the case may be, but again, as part of the healing process, gradually he would realize that he was growing something new. That there is a natural element is his body that gives him claws. And over a span of six issues, you would see them grow.

So, when all is said and done, it would come down to a major league fight between the X-Men and Wolverine. A major component of the fight would be Wolverine’s battle with himself over the goodness of his soul, the warrior of his soul fighting this demon he had become, and he would win. The adamantium would flake off and he would stand reborn as a totally natural being. His bones and claws would be virtually unbreakable, they could be broken, but they could also heal. But because of the incredible stress he has been under for the past two years, his healing factor is like, “I’m tired. Don’t do this again, not fore awhile, OK?” After all this, Wolverine is not only more vulnerable. He’s going to butt his head into the wall because “It hurts too much and why do I wanna hurt myself? I’ll use the key”. It is like Wolverine’s come face to face with his own morality, and his own limitations and is like, “I’m too old for this shit. We’ll find a better way.”

But at the same time, it would create a bond between him and Jean like nothing that’s ever been done before. So that even if she was in love with [Cyclops], there would be a level of communication between her and Logan that Scott could only dream about, or have nightmares about. And at the end of it all, would lead to a final confrontation with the Shadow King. But that was my storyline, my core story for the first two years of X-Men.”
 
I had forgotten about the Colossus thing. I had no idea the wedding was a FU though. I found Claremont's explanation of the story:
I think it was from another interview with Claremont on his UXM departure (sure are a lot of those). If memory serves, Claremont tells that if he'd still been in charge Scott and Jean would never get married, because by that point Scott was "damaged goods" and had proven himself unreliable after the whole Madelyne thing. If they were ever going to have a future together, then in his mind that concern had to be addressed; but by that point, Claremont had soured on them as a couple and was looking to turn Jean in another direction as evidenced by his "Dark Wolverine Saga." Bob Harras supposedly knew of Claremont's thoughts on the subject of Scott/Jean, but wanted to see them married anyway because to him it was one of those "should happen" fantasies, and so he made it happen once Claremont was gone.
 
I think it was from another interview with Claremont on his UXM departure (sure are a lot of those). If memory serves, Claremont tells that if he'd still been in charge Scott and Jean would never get married, because by that point Scott was "damaged goods" and had proven himself unreliable after the whole Madelyne thing. If they were ever going to have a future together, then in his mind that concern had to be addressed; but by that point, Claremont had soured on them as a couple and was looking to turn Jean in another direction as evidenced by his "Dark Wolverine Saga." Bob Harras supposedly knew of Claremont's thoughts on the subject of Scott/Jean, but wanted to see them married anyway because to him it was one of those "should happen" fantasies, and so he made it happen once Claremont was gone.

Based on everything I hear about Bob Harris, it seems like he messed up big time. Forced Claremont out and then rehired him way too late. It also seems like he was the one writing the books during the 90s. The entire editorial scene at 90s Marvel seems like a mess actually.
 
I think it was from another interview with Claremont on his UXM departure (sure are a lot of those). If memory serves, Claremont tells that if he'd still been in charge Scott and Jean would never get married, because by that point Scott was "damaged goods" and had proven himself unreliable after the whole Madelyne thing. If they were ever going to have a future together, then in his mind that concern had to be addressed; but by that point, Claremont had soured on them as a couple and was looking to turn Jean in another direction as evidenced by his "Dark Wolverine Saga." Bob Harras supposedly knew of Claremont's thoughts on the subject of Scott/Jean, but wanted to see them married anyway because to him it was one of those "should happen" fantasies, and so he made it happen once Claremont was gone.

I haven't been a fan of Scott/Jean for a long time, but the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of her with Wolverine, too.
 
Based on everything I hear about Bob Harris, it seems like he messed up big time. Forced Claremont out and then rehired him way too late. It also seems like he was the one writing the books during the 90s. The entire editorial scene at 90s Marvel seems like a mess actually.
Bob Harras is a fat blob of cancer. Brah is trying ruin DC right now with Didio.
 
Well the Wolverine/Poccy connection was actually originally a Claremont idea and BWS was just honoring that for when Claremont decided to reveal it. They had definitely started laying the groundwork for it though.

During Inferno Wolverine goes nuts when he picks up Apocalypse's scent on Angel:

Chris+55.gif


and then in Wolverine the Jungle Adventure when Wolverine goes into one of his lairs:

Scan0031.gif


Claremont had tons of really interesting plots he never got around to (like the Dark Wolverine Saga). It was pretty shocking how long term he planned.

Holy shit man! You're amazing!

I remember Inferno and Jungle Adventure with those amazing Mignola drawings!!! Hahaha you just brought back sooo many memories from when I started reading comics! Thanks bro!

Unfortunately I don't own these comics anymore, I gave then all away when I stopped reading... :-(

Do you know where I can read anything about the stuff Claremont didn't use on his run?

Edit:Just read the other posts! You guys are all awesome!
 
Holy shit man! You're amazing!

I remember Inferno and Jungle Adventure with those amazing Mignola drawings!!! Hahaha you just brought back sooo many memories from when I started reading comics! Thanks bro!

Unfortunately I don't own these comics anymore, I gave then all away when I stopped reading... :-(

Do you know where I can read anything about the stuff Claremont didn't use on his run?

Edit:Just read the other posts! You guys are all awesome!

If you really want to get in deep this website is a great source. The first page is mainly about Claremont's return in 2000 and the second page is about the 90s and abandoned Claremont stories.
 
Holy shit man! You're amazing!

I remember Inferno and Jungle Adventure with those amazing Mignola drawings!!! Hahaha you just brought back sooo many memories from when I started reading comics! Thanks bro!

Unfortunately I don't own these comics anymore, I gave then all away when I stopped reading... :-(

Do you know where I can read anything about the stuff Claremont didn't use on his run?

Edit:Just read the other posts! You guys are all awesome!

I think you can make a book about all the storylines Claremont never got around to, but CSBG has a bunch you can look through, including this one right here, where Alan Moore was pissed Marvel was using some characters he created without his permission.

The original plan involved Nimrod merging with the Fury to form an astonishingly powerful villain. This new villain would wipe out the Morlocks and most of the Hellfire Club. In the various battles with the X-Men, he would also severely wound Nightcrawler. Ultimately, Kitty Pryde would temporarily defeat him by phasing through him, messing with his circuits but the reaction would have left her injured, as well.

Nightcrawler, Kitty, Colossus and Longshot (hot off of his mini-series) would leave the X-Men to go to England where Colossus would serve as a bodyguard of sorts to the recuperating Kurt and Kitty. This, naturally, would lead into a new book called Excalibur.

Jaspers, meanwhile, would team up with Nimrod/Fury, and slowly turn the population of the world against the X-Men. Mutants all over the world would be forced to team up together. Eventually, Forge and Roma would get involved and the Siege Perilous would be used to defeat Jaspers and Nimrod/Fury, but the X-Men would be warped via Jaspers powers so that Claremont could make various changes with the team.


This led to a lot of big changes in his storylines, eventually leading to the Morlock Massarce and Fall of the Mutants, and the success of those kinda X-men crossovers are still kinda the blueprint for Marvel events even today.

All because Alan Moore got mad, as he often is.
 
If the New 52 Batgirl is just three or so months after The Killing Joke. Does that mean that Steph and Cass never get to be Batgirl?
 
If the New 52 Batgirl is just three or so months after The Killing Joke. Does that mean that Steph and Cass never get to be Batgirl?

It would appear so. DC editorial is hellbent on getting rid of those two. I read somewhere that Gail had intended to make specific references to them being BG while Babs was healing, and was told she couldn't.
 
It would appear so. DC editorial is hellbent on getting rid of those two. I read somewhere that Gail had intended to make specific references to them being BG while Babs was healing, and was told she couldn't.

That makes me pretty sad. I just got all of Steph's Batgirl trades and was planning to grab all of Cass's.
 
So I just finished reading Hush Beyond and I must say that it was TOTALLY worth ten dollars. Like, seriously, if you're a fan of Batman Beyond, do yourself a favor and pick it up. I was sad that
so many members of Batman's gallery died
but otherwise it was pretty awesome.
 
Well the Wolverine/Poccy connection was actually originally a Claremont idea and BWS was just honoring that for when Claremont decided to reveal it. They had definitely started laying the groundwork for it though.

During Inferno Wolverine goes nuts when he picks up Apocalypse's scent on Angel:

Chris+55.gif


and then in Wolverine the Jungle Adventure when Wolverine goes into one of his lairs:

Scan0031.gif


Claremont had tons of really interesting plots he never got around to (like the Dark Wolverine Saga). It was pretty shocking how long term he planned.

Where did you dig this stuff up?
 
New Morrison interview. Here's a bit that feels somewhat relevant to recent events in this thread.
There has been a recent exodus of writers and artists from the DC stable, some slipping out quietly, others angrily, and a couple leaving in protest at various ethical concerns. Morrison is keen to point out that he is leaving on good terms with DC, and still has work in the pipeline with them for the next year.

“We have disagreements,” he acknowledges, “but to me disagreements are things that you deal with, problems are things you solve, and everyone stays friends, and negotiations are done. So I kinda felt that.. it just began to feel too unpleasant to work within a comic book fan culture where everyone was mad at you all the time and giving you responsibility for legal cases and things that I have got honestly nothing to do with in my life and will shortly have zero connection with".

“But I felt that. There was a sense of, a definite sense of the temple was being burned down and it was time to run away.”
 
Maybe there's a kind of a cycle. The last decade or so was really really good for superheroes comics. I, too, am feeling that a bad time is coming; maybe I am part of the problem, you know, being in an internet forum saying everything is shit, but, going to Marvel that is what I read.
Marvel now seems like a much better place to jump off superheroes than in. I hope I am wrong, but I am feeling a lot more the end of an era than the beggining of one.
 
Maybe there's a kind of a cycle. The last decade or so was really really good for superheroes comics. I, too, am feeling that a bad time is coming; maybe I am part of the problem, you know, being in an internet forum saying everything is shit, but, going to Marvel that is what I read.
Marvel now seems like a much better place to jump off superheroes than in. I hope I am wrong, but I am feeling a lot more the end of an era than the beggining of one.

Going to disagree with you here. Comics are doing better than ever, financially (quality is subjective). You personally may not like the directions marvel or dc are going but it is clearly working out for them. So I don't understand the "end of an era" talk.

I say this as someone who was 5-6 comics pre new 52 and is 30+ now.
 
There is definitely a changing of the guard going on. So many awesome young writers making some crazy awesome books now. I don't really buy "end of an era" when we've got guys like Hickman and Remender at Marvel and Snyder and Lemire at DC doing such good work. Losing a couple old timers is hardly a nail in the coffin.
 
Going to disagree with you here. Comics are doing better than ever, financially (quality is subjective). You personally may not like the directions marvel or dc are going but it is clearly working out for them. So I don't understand the "end of an era" talk.

I say this as someone who was 5-6 comics pre new 52 and is 30+ now.

I'm strictly talking quality.

There is definitely a changing of the guard going on. So many awesome young writers making some crazy awesome books now. I don't really buy "end of an era" when we've got guys like Hickman and Remender at Marvel and Snyder and Lemire at DC doing such good work. Losing a couple old timers is hardly a nail in the coffin.

May be that. I hope so.
 
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