Is GAF too strict?
- Thread starter Kraftwerk
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It's not like it's difficult to be civilized. The only harsh unwritten rule I know of is to not be overly negative about something. Like, as in to the point of harping over and over about it.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Actually I think the rules have gotten a bit lighter. Usually piracy threads are graveyards but the recent one last week had people admitting to pirating games and what their justification was and it was a great discussion. And no one got banned! Though when you see those "port begs" the mods linked earlier in this thread you can't help but say "really? that's a port beg?" to some of those..
ShinNL
Member
Unfortunately I have to agree with this. Imagine if every active member creates whatever thread they can think of. You couldn't read a thing. Unlike other forums, there's no lack of content here with the 1 page system for all news. The reason you've been juniored is the same why mods exists: they filter out the noise so GAF stays as it was intended to be. I don't like plowing to misleading thread titles, useless threads, discrimination, flame wars, general stupidity, etc. etc.C'mon pramath.. I've been on gaming side like 3x in the last 5 months and I still remember all the shitty threads you used to make before that. You were also a very active member on gaming side so I find it hard to believe you didn't see the giant list threads, the warnings against pointless list threads, the eventual ban of them, or the faq section that's staring you in the face every time. Not to mention the post you linked to is you literally typing 3 game names and then later telling everyone you don't want to do more than that. No one is out to get you.. I'm sure it's a result of reviewing your record over the previous year. I'm actually shocked you've only been a member a year.. I've made 1 thread in 4.. you've made 3 pages worth in one.
Threads are generally treated much harsher than a standard post, since you hog one of the main pages immediately if you post a thread.
And TBH, having a perma junior isn't as bad as you think. Most members never make a thread and you have like this semi-special tag.
The Mana Legend
Banned
I definitely think they need to explain the rules a little better. Some rules aren't even written, and then new people get banned for breaking them. And some of them are really odd rules too. I got banned for a bit for saying the shortened version of transvestite (not in a derogatory way), for a rule that wasn't even written and was just put into place because a couple of people complained in one thread about it. Then a bunch of people got banned because they used the word, and not even in a derogatory way either.
Yet at the time, people were allowed to say the "cunt" and "bitch" with no consequence. Then that became illegal, and a bunch of people completely unaware that those words became banned got banned.
Yet at the time, people were allowed to say the "cunt" and "bitch" with no consequence. Then that became illegal, and a bunch of people completely unaware that those words became banned got banned.
Well, now you know it's a derogatory term, you can still post, and so do a bunch of other posters.
Seems like a win win situation.
I'm still seeing this too. A forum announcement/sticky for even a week of rule updates would be sufficient.
Some people honestly don't know and (most likely) meant no harm. Give them a slap on the wrist, educate them, and move on. No one needs to be banned over misinformation, it just breeds anger.
"Tranny" is derogatory. "Trans" is not.
AgentChris
Member
Respect your fellow members and everything will be all right. I just wish I could get a tag; plus one for Capt Yamato.
Most people get informed by other posters, I think its a great system.
Except, because of the mass bans, now there is a section of Gaf (they don't post it, but they exist, evidence on sites other than Gaf suggest so) that is bitter towards the trans community here. I think it could have been handled better.
Look for the NeoGaf meme. Probably 10% are anger messages towards the trans community due to bans. It may not actually manifest here, but we really don't need to be spreading that attitude.
Spreading the attitude that's its not OK to use derogatory terms willy nilly?
The Mana Legend
Banned
I think it really depends on where you are. Where I'm from, it is not derogatory and I live in an area with a fairly large transvestite community. Hell, my brother is a transvestite and he just sees it as a shortened version of transvestite.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
That's what I thought it was...
No. I think you are misinterpreting my message. I'm for the trans community. I am not for giving people reasons to be angry at them.
Instead of just banning:
"I'm not sure I would date a tranny."
Why not respond with:
"We don't tolerate that language here. Please don't use it again." in highlighted text. Make an announment that NeoGaf no longer tolerates the use of "Cunt", "Bitch", and "Tranny" anymore. It's transparent, people get the message, and nobody gets angry for being banned for something they honestly didn't know could potentially be hurtful.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I think a very basic problem on this forum is the layout. It's just a weak layout for such a big forum. I realize they're probably trying to avoid clutter at the top of the forums by not stickying rule threads, but there really isn't an easy way of checking what is and isn't allowed here without doing so. Assuming you still come through the main portal with all of the forums listed (I don't, I bookmark right to OT), the faq forum is there, but once you enter you're met with a bunch of threads spread out, some stickyed, some not, and I can see how it might be confusing for someone to get a straight answer.
Also, as someone mentioned above, I think there are definitely some Gaming specific rules and some OT specific rules that do need clarifying some how. I know there are talks of a new layout in the works but who knows when that will be.
Exactly. This is a post like 10 posts down in a list of locked posts that are under another group of stickyed posts in a forum near the bottom of the main portal page. I don't have any problem finding it because I've been using the internet to cry about games since 1995, but that doesn't mean everyone has. There's gotta be a better way to present that info. You guys link to it so much, so why isn't it significant enough to at least be at the top of the faq?
The Mana Legend
Banned
The problem with this is that it does not have concrete words. Especially with a word as divisive as "tranny," which is derogatory to some people and not to other people.
That doesn't specifically mention "Tranny" though, thus doesn't really solve the problem. Again, not everyone in the world knows what is derogatory, especially since different communities have different usage levels.
The language you, your brother, and your community use is not the same language that can be used on the internet without giving offense. You said, "depends on where you are", right? That says to me that you are aware that there are people and communities who do find it offensive. Well, people from those communities are on the internet. Given that this has been pointed out to you, is it not reasonable to expect you to know that if you use "tranny", you're going to offend people, whether or not that is your intent?
Devolution
Member
Tranny is divisive? Last I checked "tranny surprise" wasn't exactly a nice sentiment.
"Where you are" is NeoGAF; here it is bad.
And the problem with "tranny" is similar to the problem with a term like "she-male"; in the U.S. in particular it is associated with sex work, pornography, and fetishization of transsexuality; it is a term associated with seeing transgender people as freaks. It is a dehumanizing term. It might be possible that a transgender person might call themselves this term in a sort of deliberately ironic manner, but it is not acceptable to use in polite conversation on this forum, even if there might exist other places or countries where "tranny" is normalized or has a different meaning.
I can certainly understand how someone could mistakenly believe that "tranny" is not a bad word; it is very commonly used in risque humor and as a colloquialism for transgender people and it frankly looks and sounds like a cutesy diminutive. But it is still a misconception.
I should also note that "transvestite" refers to a(n almost always) heterosexual man who dresses in the clothing of a member of the opposite sex, sometimes though not always for sexual titillation. It is not the same as someone who is transsexual or transgender, who wants to live their life as the whichever sex is the opposite of the one they were born as. It is also different from a drag queen, which refers to specifically who men who cross-dress as performers. And just to complicate things, transgender can also be used as an umbrella term for all of these things. But transvestite is not the correct term to use in these discussions unless the conversation is actually about transvestites - and even there "cross-dressers" would be preferable.
The Mana Legend
Banned
Is it reasonable to ban people who have a completely different definition of what's derogatory and what's not, and haven't come across people who are offended by "tranny"?
Not at all.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
The guy who posted "mud..something" in the Kanye thread clearly didn't find it offensive. If he had a list of offensive words though..
Devolution
Member
Actually he knew it was plenty offensive, he thought he could post it without consequences.
Right. Nobody here is arguing it's not inherently derogatory. We are saying there should be warnings first, then bannings. Treat people like humans, not monsters. Just because somebody said something offensive by accident, doesn't mean they deserve to be harshly punished (in Gaf standards anyways).
If an announcement sticky was made and the TOS revised, I would be all for banning any poster for using the term afterwards. They had their chance.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
But then he apologized about it to everyone. m(-_-)m
"Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize calling people niggers was offensive! You should have warned me!"
We aren't that naive.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Wait a second.. that's not the definition I read that was linked in that thread (I'd never heard that term before). In that case obviously my point is.. pointless.
I am certainly not unsympathetic to the notion that some people might not be aware of it. As I said, I was not aware of its status until shortly after coming out, and I know that most cissexual people simply would not learn this without going out of their way to learn it. I would not unceremoniously ban someone for simply getting it wrong or making what could be construed as an innocent mistake, such as using the term in an otherwise neutral or supportive post.
And I believe that this is typically how it plays out in threads. Historically when I have seen someone say "tranny", I have seen a deluge of posts afterwards warning said person to stop it. What usually follows is one of two things: Said poster doubles down, continues to use it, because they refuse to acknowledge the mistake. This poster usually ends up catching a ban in this instance. Or said poster has a mea culpa and edits, and usually nothing happens.
And while I would not deny that there have been bans, even more recently, in which someone has said tranny and has been simply banned without warnings, I believe that in the vast majority of cases that I have seen, users do receive the sort of warning that you and Razek are talking about; it just happens to come from other posters.
The Faceless Master
Member
yeah, and in my community, many people affectionately use the N word to refer to others...doesn't mean it's okay on Neogaf!
Devolution
Member
It's a pejorative levied at white women who date black men. The person posting it knew it was offensive.
The Faceless Master
Member
are you fucking kidding?
i could see the smirk on that poster's face when i read that post.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Not kidding, honestly never heard the term before. The definition Devo just posted was the one I saw, and I thought it something similar to golddigger, offensive to women if anything. But no need to derail this thread about that.
*Sigh. If that's the way you guys are going to keep doing it then whatever, more power to you. I don't see how a little transparency hurts though. It's honestly not that much work to type in the word "Tranny" in parenthesis next to "anti-transgendered" in the TOS.
I'm just sad knowing there are a lot of hostile posters towards the trans community because they happened to get caught in a graveyard thread. Pretty much: "the wrong place at the wrong time."
Edit: Why did Copernicus get banned?
I'm just sad knowing there are a lot of hostile posters towards the trans community because they happened to get caught in a graveyard thread. Pretty much: "the wrong place at the wrong time."
Edit: Why did Copernicus get banned?
idlethreats
Member
If they are hostile towards the *trans community* because the *mods* banned them, it seems like maybe their ire is misplaced (at best) and they were probably already hostile to trans folk in the first place.
If you put "tranny" you're gonna have to put in all the slurs though.
A few days ago someone mistakenly used "ladyboy" (or was it "shemale" i don't remember) that AFAIk, are all considered slurs.
Devolution
Member
That OP wasn't banned and when informed that ladyboy isn't appropriate out of certain contexts he tried to change the title. So not everyone gets the proverbial "you fucked up ban" if they try to apologize and own up to the mistake.
Eh, maybe so, but I like to think the best of people. Still, why even give that secondary chance when it's a pretty simple fix?
Just the obviously mistaken ones. It would probably take about 3 minutes to edit Stumps post. I'm really not asking for the moon here.
That is sincerely encouraging to hear. (Though I'm not really sure how he/she didn't think that wasn't derogatory)
No. I just don't think it should be left up to the members to do the work. Eventually, that process will fail.
Devolution
Member
He watched a documentary in which they utilized the word in the title and the culture (Thailand) and didn't know it's not really a term to use outside of that context. When told so he used the proper terms afterwards instead of getting mad and defensive.
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
Is there any solid reason why one can't put a mod on their ignore list? Someone asked earlier and Stumpokapow kinda replied (more towards the hypothetical scenario is the mod is more or less bad posting), but I still ask "Why can't I put a mod on an ignore list?"
Is there a possible alternative system that can be made where perhaps "high importance" posts (like warnings or announcements, for example) can bypass the ignore filter but in all other instances can be ignored like any other user?
Is there a possible alternative system that can be made where perhaps "high importance" posts (like warnings or announcements, for example) can bypass the ignore filter but in all other instances can be ignored like any other user?
Yes i know, i'm saying that updating the TOS with one term is pointless for that very reason.
Each person has different terms they don't know the nature of, especially since Gaf hosts people from all over the world.
BTW i also learned that the term is offensive on GAF, for a very similar reason (they used it on TV, so i always assumed it was alright).
Oh, okay. Thanks for the clarification.
Devolution
Member
I'm basically shoring up your point. Members will inform and if the person gets pissy mods can step in.
The Faceless Master
Member
that would require mods to have to do additional work of labeling particular posts "high importance", etc...
FO-totality
Poet Centuriate
I could imagine marking it being as easy as checking a box when writing up a post. I understand it would require coding of some sort (I have no idea what that would require. I have no experience with coding), but I can't imagine it adding work beyond a single mouse click (similar in mechanism to marking a post as a "minor edit" on Wikipedia for example).
Who are you so eager to ignore anyway?
Although I assume that it would be too much work and not fair to Gromph to have him implement the type of system you are describing in any case. You'll probably have to deal with it.
Probably because of this post:
Wouldn't be the first time he gets a short ban for joking about Blackace, but it's all in good fun as far as I can tell.
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