Is GAF too strict?

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And then it continued anyway, fifty pages later.

What does that tell you about the attempt at semi-transparency?

...that it caused lots of people to pile into the thread and talk about how they think the rules should be changed and complain about bans, even well after the mods stopped respponding to them. In other words, exactly what I was saying? I am right, hooray for me?

Yes, reporting someone for doing something clearly wrong helps reduce the moderators workload, but falsely abusing this system against someone you dislike makes more work for them.

Who exactly do you think does this without getting banned themselves?
 
Bishop isn't like batman or dredd

He is like Cthulhu

Summoned by the cult of ignorance
 
Do we have a final body count on today's this weekend's double graveyard? Any perms?

The list of death:

  1. Dennis
  2. PinkCrayon
  3. f0lken
  4. Baby Milo
  5. Apeopleman
  6. Pandaman
  7. Kite
  8. PumpkinPie
  9. Instigator
  10. polyh3dron
  11. Foliorum Viridum
  12. Phat Michael
  13. Chun-Li On A Bike
  14. Raiden
  15. Jake McLargeHuge
    [*]
    Kloteweer
  16. Panzon
  17. Ooccoo
  18. shinobi602
  19. TeethMummy
  20. phosphor112
  21. ThisWreckage
  22. Gospel
  23. curttrad
  24. Jangocube
  25. lush
  26. Forceatowulf
  27. itxaka
  28. BPRD
  29. LeBrick James
  30. Trey
  31. joelseph
  32. JDinomite
  33. GraveHorizon
    [*]
    akira28
Linked posts are verification of the user being banned, not necessarily the post that got them banned.

Statistics

345 people posted in that thread, 35 were banned (10% ban rate)

Exclude everyone who posted less than 5, and we get 46 total number of posters (76% ban rate)
Exclude everyone who posted less than 4, and we get 56 total number of posters (63% ban rate)
Exclude everyone who posted less than 3, and we get 86 total number of posters (50% ban rate)
Exclude everyone who posted less than 2, and we get 140 total number of posters (25% ban rate)
 
And then it continued anyway, fifty pages later.

What does that tell you about the attempt at semi-transparency?
If this thread were locked it's foreseeable that two more would take its place within a weeks time. This place definitely serves a purpose for channeling all that meta-discussion urge into one place.

It's not like this thread was super-active before the bishpocalypse started. Usually pops up for a bit then sinks back into abyss until someone has a question/opinion to bring up again that's on the meta side.

Does GAF have a "report this post" feature?
Yeah, it's called PMing a mod.

Oh squiddy and your list.
Hey man, SOMEONE ASKED FOR IT. ;p
 
...that it caused lots of people to pile into the thread and talk about how they think the rules should be changed and complain about bans, even well after the mods stopped respponding to them. In other words, exactly what I was saying? I am right, hooray for me?

No it isn't exactly what you're saying, though. You're conflating two things together here and acting as though because one happened, the other would too.

Semi-transparency revealing overall moderation policy (aka this thread) =/= SA-style transparency (publically-viewable rationale for individual bans)
 
You go out in public, and yell out "God damn those *racial slurs*"

You get arressted.

The papers don't say "Sunflower was arrested" and leave it at that, they generally say why. Neogaf is still a public forum, and as such your activities aren't private. What's the difference here?

thankfully the search is back that tool is more than enough to fine out if your curious.... its what use it for most of the time...
 
Semi-transparency revealing overall moderation policy (aka this thread) =/= SA-style transparency (publically-viewable rationale for individual bans)

What is your basis for asserting that the two forms of moderation transparency would have totally different effects on the resulting message traffic?
 
The list of death:

  1. Dennis
  2. PinkCrayon
  3. f0lken
  4. Baby Milo
  5. Apeopleman
  6. Pandaman
  7. Kite
  8. PumpkinPie
  9. Instigator
  10. polyh3dron
  11. Foliorum Viridum
  12. Phat Michael
  13. Chun-Li On A Bike
  14. Raiden
  15. Jake McLargeHuge
    [*]
    Kloteweer
  16. Panzon
  17. Ooccoo
  18. shinobi602
  19. TeethMummy
  20. phosphor112
  21. ThisWreckage
  22. Gospel
  23. curttrad
  24. Jangocube
  25. lush
  26. Forceatowulf
  27. itxaka
  28. BPRD
  29. LeBrick James
  30. Trey
  31. joelseph
  32. JDinomite
  33. GraveHorizon
    [*]
    akira28
Linked posts are verification of the user being banned, not necessarily the post that got them banned.

Statistics

345 people posted in that thread, 35 were banned (10% ban rate)

Exclude everyone who posted less than 5, and we get 46 total number of posters (76% ban rate)
Exclude everyone who posted less than 4, and we get 56 total number of posters (63% ban rate)
Exclude everyone who posted less than 3, and we get 86 total number of posters (50% ban rate)
Exclude everyone who posted less than 2, and we get 140 total number of posters (25% ban rate)
Sweet Jesus Bish.
 
The list of death:
gkkuW.gif


Nice work btw.
 
I think the moderation policies work here to a decent extent. I think the moderation policies work on SA to a decent extent. The fact is that they're both different boards with different feels to them. What am I trying to say? Oh yeah, if you'd like a SA style board, go join SA. There's nothing stopping you being a member of both.

I will say it's quicker to find out what's acceptable behaviour on SA because you can look at the ban histories and see what gets people probation or ban. Juniors have to tread very lightly here. I think all new juniors should be given a link to this thread when they're approved as the discussion here is useful, if somewhat whiny in places.
 
I think the moderation policies work here to a decent extent. I think the moderation policies work on SA to a decent extent. The fact is that they're both different boards with different feels to them. What am I trying to say? Oh yeah, if you'd like a SA style board, go join SA. There's nothing stopping you being a member of both.

I will say it's quicker to find out what's acceptable behaviour on SA because you can look at the ban histories and see what gets people probation or ban. Juniors have to tread very lightly here. I think all new juniors should be given a link to this thread when they're approved as the discussion here is useful, if somewhat whiny in places.

Thats too much to sift through, really the faq is enough, and if your agressive enough to get banned as a junior then neogaf isn't the place for you.
 
I feel like people are now getting banned simply for having opinions. If you say something that is unpopular and doesn't fit with the hive mind you risk getting banned. And defending yourself almost increases those odds.
 
I feel like people are now getting banned simply for having opinions. If you say something that is unpopular and doesn't fit with the hive mind you risk getting banned. And defending yourself almost increases those odds.

Do you have any examples of this? You are not the first person to say this, but I can't think of an instance of this happening.
 
I think we should keep the banned process as is. There's no need to complicate a system that has worked extremely well. If you violate the system, you will be informed, personally, that you will be not allowed to post on the forum for x amount of days. It's worked great so far. We don't have a forum full of ignorant posters, and normally if there is one, he's blackballed and will probably get banned soon.
 
I feel like people are now getting banned simply for having opinions. If you say something that is unpopular and doesn't fit with the hive mind you risk getting banned. And defending yourself almost increases those odds.

Oh yeah?


I personally think Manos is correct to assert that increased gun control should not be a priority of the Democratic Party or of the American government as a whole, at least at this point in time.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS
 
I think the whole policy of not wanting public spectacles around bannings is horseshit. Whenever someone from NFL age gets banned, the threads goes on for around a page or more trying to figure out why. The public spectacle does go on so saying that the current policy doesn't lead to that is pretty much bullshit.
 
No it isn't exactly what you're saying, though. You're conflating two things together here.

Semi-transparency revealing overall moderation policy =/= SA-style transparency (publically-viewable rationale for individual bans)

Several of the moderators, including myself... and including EL, whose decision this 100% is... have replied on the specific subject of a ban record. I've been an SA member for 6 years longer than I've been a GAF member. I get that not everyone agrees about what's best, but there's not really much more to be said on the subject.

The big reason why not is because bans are a cumulative thing, not necessarily subject to one post, and ban records often don't give good context. It's also because we don't necessarily want to name-and-shame everyone who does something wrong. to be honest, "public bannings" are very uncommon... one of the first things in the mod tutorial guide is "You're not a moderator to be a "personality."... That is, do not ... derail discussions because of your status, or perform "public hangings" when banning people." Obviously everything has context and I'm not going to second guess bish, but my point is that that's not the way things get done in general.

I think we generally do a good but not perfect job at making the rules clear, and I think fear of "unwritten rules" is pretty overblown if people really just read the TOS and FAQ forum in a holistic, not-hyper-literal way.

I also think people overthink the significance of someone getting a 5-day cool-off. No one is being considered a terrible irredeemable poster because they blew off steam on a bad day or stepped slightly over the line.

Ban messages in 2012 are better than they were 5-6 years ago in terms of imparting info. Again, not saying they're perfect, but in general someone who gets banned now should understand why they were banned even if they don't agree.

Finally, a lot of people who are bitter about their bans hold a vendetta against the people they believe have banned them. In some cases, it's that people disagree with the rules and so think they shouldn't apply--that's not how any system works. I totally get why people would disagree with some of the rules here. But they do apply. So "shooting the messenger" by implicating the mod who banned you isn't really productive. If you really feel someone in specific has it out for you, PM another mod about it and try to be detached and rational about it instead of getting aggressive. Either way, we don't want to enable or empower this kind of thinking--even if Kabouter (or Mumei, or charlequin, or Blackace, or myself...) bans the same person 8 times, that doesn't mean that 10 other mods wouldn't have made any of those calls.

Those are some of the reasons. I'm not sure if every mod agrees with me on all of those issues, and some mods might actually want a public ban list, but that's how I feel, and a lot of it is stuff that EL has said before as well so I feel confident saying he's basically in the same ballpark as me.

The public ban list isn't going to happen in the immediate or mid future. I think we all understand why some people want one. I think we've expressed why there isn't one. Is there anything that's unclear going forward?

In the mean time, if people have questions about specific rules, specific bans, moderation policy, anything like that, I'm happy to keep replying.

Normally we lock threads like this, but I think it's served as a good pressure-release valve to prevent meta-garbage from overwhelming other threads. So if the response is that a thread like this indulges in the kind of gossip the above answer says we're trying to avoid, I agree that it does, and it's kind of a harm reduction thing. I'd rather avoid the gossip altogether.
 
I think the whole policy of not wanting public spectacles around bannings is horseshit. Whenever someone from NFL age gets banned, the threads goes on for around a page or more trying to figure out why. The public spectacle does go on so saying that the current policy doesn't lead to that is pretty much bullshit.

How would you want it?
 
Unpopular and offensive, or truly a innocent topic that the "hive mind" rejects?
The problem is that some people are either really easily offended or exhibit faux outrage.

Do you have any examples of this? You are not the first person to say this, but I can't think of an instance of this happening.
I find that most of the threads that deal with moderately controversial social issues have examples of this.
Oh yeah?


I personally think Manos is correct to assert that increased gun control should not be a priority of the Democratic Party or of the American government as a whole, at least at this point in time.

LET'S SEE WHAT HAPPENS
Personally I disagree with many of the things that Manos says but he shouldn't be banned just because his opinions are unpopular.
 
Personally I disagree with many of the things that Manos says but he shouldn't be banned just because his opinions are unpopular.

You're missing the point I'm making, which is that it's an extremely unpopular opinion on GAF that I also hold and have now clearly expressed. Not banned yet!
 
I feel like people are now getting banned simply for having opinions. If you say something that is unpopular and doesn't fit with the hive mind you risk getting banned. And defending yourself almost increases those odds.

We've had this discussion a few times in the topic, but just to recap for anyone who hasn't read through the earlier posts and is just replying to the thread table:

1) As in the TOS, homophobia, racism, insensitivity, etc. are all against the rules. So are console warrior shenanigans. So, yeah, obviously some people are banned for having opinions. I don't think we lose sleep over that.

2) Beyond that, people getting banned for having dissenting opinions is not at all common. What is fairly common is that someone has an unpopular opinion, expresses it in a very hit-and-run way (especially in politics threads), gets dogpiled by people who disagree strongly, gets overwhelmed trying to defend themselves, loses their cool, and gets banned for being rude or aggressive to others. Those bans are justified, but I agree that the dogpiles are unfortunate. If you're replying to someone, and you're making the same point the person above you already made, you're basically just ganging up on them. It also makes the whole thing feel adversarial.

My best advice:
- If you're going to say something deeply unpopular, that's okay, but maybe try your best to actually explain yourself in your first post instead of giving the one-line "FF7 is the shittiest game ever" version. It will counteract a lot of the negative reaction, and it will make it easier for us to correctly assign blame when the thread ends up derailed and with yelling. Don't think it's fair that someone who has a majority opinion can express it in one line no problem, but you need to explain yourself? That's inherent to discussion.
- If you get dogpiled, don't get into the habit of trying to quote all 200 people who reply to you. Make a followup with a general summary of your reaction to the questions raised. The more you get personally upset and make it personal, the more you'll get angry.
- If you want to leave the thread, just leave the thread. Don't post that you're going to leave the thread. Don't go passive aggressive about "typical DIMocrats!!!!" Just leave the thread. And if you do have to reply saying "I'm leaving the thread", don't pull some baloney by replying ten minutes later.
- "He started it" doesn't change your guilt, and we can already independently determine the line between responding to someone and harassing someone.
- Don't insult people.

If you have a specific example of someone who was banned for "having an opinion" that doesn't fit under the first category above--let's say in the last year or two so we're not dredging up some thread from 2007 feel free to let me know and I can comment or follow up.

I think the whole policy of not wanting public spectacles around bannings is horseshit. Whenever someone from NFL age gets banned, the threads goes on for around a page or more trying to figure out why. The public spectacle does go on so saying that the current policy doesn't lead to that is pretty much bullshit.

Sometimes we mop up those posts, sometimes we ask that they not go on, sometimes we let them run their course. None of this should be taken as an endorsement. We'd rather people not speculate about bans, and particularly not grave-dance. We do ban people for especially harsh, idiotic, or personal celebrations when someone gets banned. I don't personally read sports threads so I can't speak if there's a moderation gap there, but this is just the general way we deal with it. I'd also say that in general we allow community threads to sort of deal with things themselves as long as they're in check, and there's no desire to be heavy-handed to bust up stuff in there. :)
 
Okay this "Faux outrage" stuff is bullshit. Why wouldn't me and a few others be incensed at people telling us we're attention whores who deserve creepy photos?
 
I think the whole policy of not wanting public spectacles around bannings is horseshit. Whenever someone from NFL age gets banned, the threads goes on for around a page or more trying to figure out why. The public spectacle does go on so saying that the current policy doesn't lead to that is pretty much bullshit.

We have our insular community working just fine. Don't get it involved in this stuff, man!

#freeSNES
 
I've posted in ways in which I worry If I crossed a line or two. When I login and I see that I didn't get banned Im usually and genuinely surprised. For every great conversation I have I also get engaged aggressively for not softening or sugar coating how I feel.

I've been in many forums and communities, Neogaf is one of the only places where I can be direct and passionate about many different subjects. Why? Because the rules and moderation are tight and forgiving and there really isn't drama behind the scenes. With Neogaf what you see and say is what you get and recieve.
 
I feel like people are now getting banned simply for having opinions. If you say something that is unpopular and doesn't fit with the hive mind you risk getting banned. And defending yourself almost increases those odds.

Replace "having opinions" with "being racist", "disrespecting women" and "generally having a bad attitude" and yes, you are correct, that is how the direction in which things seem to be going.
 
You're missing the point I'm making, which is that it's an extremely unpopular opinion on GAF that I also hold and have now clearly expressed. Not banned yet!
Maybe you're just the exception that proves the rule ;). But seriously, there's a tendency on Neogaf for people to just pile on a poster who says something controversial. Just look at that thread where the OP used the term ladyboy not knowing it was offensive.
Okay this "Faux outrage" stuff is bullshit. Why wouldn't me and a few others be incensed at people telling us we're attention whores who deserve creepy photos?

Not talking about that specific thread actually, but I just find that compared to real life people are almost looking for things to be offended about on this forum.
 
The problem is that some people are either really easily offended or exhibit faux outrage.
That's where the moderators come in. I don't want to seem like I just bowing to authority but we are here to promote [ideally] healthy discussions and promote community. That means having controversies that are treated delicately because there is a cornicopia of beliefs and traditions that deserve respect out of reciprocal expectations engrained in positive communication.

I don't think that it is fair to assume an abundance of faux-outrage, it just seems like you might be imagining others' intentions. Maybe you know these people you speak of, but I don't and so I have my doubts and can say (even if there is truth to what you say) that you might just be insensitive. You might be right and the trolls getting off on baiting bans run amok. This comes back to the user's responsiblity to navigate this forum and contribute in a productive way.

Lovey-dovey be P.C. crap aside, people deserve the benefit of the doubt. If someone says that they are offended, it is just courtesy to apologize and step back from the moment. I am probably just saying stuff that you have heard, so I'm sorry if I haven't represented your position well in my post.
 
Not talking about that specific thread actually, but I just find that compared to real life people are almost looking for things to be offended about on this forum.

In real life people are generally better at being decent or you know them well enough that certain things don't need to be clarified. This is a huge forum with all kinds of people.
 
I'm not too caring or inquisitive about other peoples bannings and how they got banned, i'm sure nobody cared about mines so that business between the banned and the banee? Mod I guess?
 
Personally I disagree with many of the things that Manos says but he shouldn't be banned just because his opinions are unpopular.

I didn't ban Manos this time or have any input on his ban this time. Everything I'm about to say is my opinion only, and doesn't represent moderation more generally. I think he's bright and thoughtful and pretty interesting... but he also has a bit of a temper that didn't serve him well here.

His ban record looks like: spoilers, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, thread trolling, being rude to others. Not hard to see which way the wind was blowing.

I am 100% sure that his... minority and ecclectic opinions caused him to get into more arguments which then made his temper flare up. If someone asked me to characterize Manos, I'd say his politics were the following: realpolitik FP tempered by personal identity as Jewish American; authoritarian-classical conservative views on role of state hardened by personal distrust of and contempt for slackers, hippies, or protestors; gun buff; social progressive on some issues; Eisenhower Democrat? I hope if he's reading this that he trusts my assessment here is fair and intended to be neutral. I think at each stage of that description you can see how his viewpoints might have caused friction with swaths of the people who discussed with him. There's not much we can do about that. I will say that in virtually every case Manos was banned, someone else was banned for insulting him back, so I'm not blind to the role others played into making him feel like he was backed into a corner. But I can assure you that he's never been banned for the opinion he had, just the way things went south subsequent to that.

Personally I'm sensitive to a loss of intellectual pluralism when a dissenting voice gets banned--I know I've been the last holdout on a few other past bans for people over this sort of thing--but ultimately we can't stop enforcing the prohibition against aggressive behaviour just because someone is a dissenting voice.
 
Maybe you're just the exception that proves the rule ;). But seriously, there's a tendency on Neogaf for people to just pile on a poster who says something controversial. Just look at that thread where the OP used the term ladyboy not knowing it was offensive.

See, in real life, if I say something that people are offended by, by mistake, I immediately apologize, admit fault, and retract it. How often does that happen on GAF? Because that's basically the industry standard method of avoiding drama when you do something stupid.
 
Catching up in this thread, looks like bans are still happening. Had moved up a page and noticed that Blasty junior guy got hit at some point while I was reading.
 
Maybe you're just the exception that proves the rule ;). But seriously, there's a tendency on Neogaf for people to just pile on a poster who says something controversial. Just look at that thread where the OP used the term ladyboy not knowing it was offensive.

And he apologized and wasn't banned. See, it works.

Not talking about that specific thread actually, but I just find that compared to real life people are almost looking for things to be offended about on this forum.

Well, personally I might be offended by something in real life but choose not to say something because I just don't want to deal with it or make a scene or start a conversation about race or sex with a clueless uncle or something. I'm not offended here in some way that I am not in real life; I'm just more likely to say something if I disagree.

I don't know; perhaps posters come across as more aggressive when they argue about things precisely because it is something they would normally just bottle up if it happened in real life.
 
In real life people are generally better at being decent or you know them well enough that certain things don't need to be clarified. This is a huge forum with all kinds of people.

The problem is that on here people are rarely given the benefit of the doubt. It seems like on many occasions people start piling on without even letting the poster clarify what they meant. It might just be my opinion, but it seems like there is a tendency to think the worst of people.
 
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