Is GAF too strict?

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shanshan310 said:
Or maybe people tend to say offensive things here more than in real life :p
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See told ya if we had to use real pics some of these things wouldn't happen =D.

Stet said:
Replace "having opinions" with "being racist", "disrespecting women" and "generally having a bad attitude" and yes, you are correct, that is how the direction in which things seem to be going.
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Yep pretty much. Maybe the problem is not enough people outside of the internet have discussions like this enough so they don't go about it the right way when responding to people on the internet. Seems to be one of the problems on facebook when I first made one in 2006.
 
Stumpokapow said:
I didn't ban Manos this time or have any input on his ban this time. Everything I'm about to say is my opinion only, and doesn't represent moderation more generally. I think he's bright and thoughtful and pretty interesting... but he also has a bit of a temper that didn't serve him well here.

His ban record looks like: spoilers, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, being rude to others, thread trolling, being rude to others. Not hard to see which way the wind was blowing.

I am 100% sure that his... minority and ecclectic opinions caused him to get into more arguments which then made his temper flare up. If someone asked me to characterize Manos, I'd say his politics were the following: realpolitik FP tempered by personal identity as Jewish American; authoritarian-classical conservative views on role of state hardened by personal distrust of and contempt for slackers, hippies, or protestors; gun buff; social progressive on some issues; Eisenhower Democrat? I hope if he's reading this that he trusts my assessment here is fair and intended to be neutral. I think at each stage of that description you can see how his viewpoints might have caused friction with swaths of the people who discussed with him. There's not much we can do about that. I will say that in virtually every case Manos was banned, someone else was banned for insulting him back, so I'm not blind to the role others played into making him feel like he was backed into a corner. But I can assure you that he's never been banned for the opinion he had, just the way things went south subsequent to that.

Personally I'm sensitive to a loss of intellectual pluralism when a dissenting voice gets banned--I know I've been the last holdout on a few other past bans for people over this sort of thing--but ultimately we can't stop enforcing the prohibition against aggressive behaviour just because someone is a dissenting voice.
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What do you think the average ban count is for people who eventually get permabanned?
 
Sviatoslav said:
Maybe you're just the exception that proves the rule ;). But seriously, there's a tendency on Neogaf for people to just pile on a poster who says something controversial. Just look at that thread where the OP used the term ladyboy not knowing it was offensive.
Not talking about that specific thread actually, but I just find that compared to real life people are almost looking for things to be offended about on this forum.
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Ladyboy is offensive?

Guess I'm gonna have to look up new words for my google searches oTL
lol
 
Sviatoslav said:
I feel like people are now getting banned simply for having opinions. If you say something that is unpopular and doesn't fit with the hive mind you risk getting banned. And defending yourself almost increases those odds.
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I'm sorry but this is simply bullshit. You keep saying hive mind, but there are numerous polarizing opinions on gaf floating about every day. If there wasn't there wouldn't be conversations back and forth about everything. I hate the whole 'hive mind' argument, it doesn't apply to gaf anymore than it does to real life, imo.

Devolution said:
Okay this "Faux outrage" stuff is bullshit. Why wouldn't me and a few others be incensed at people telling us we're attention whores who deserve creepy photos?
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Yeah, there's genuine outrage about opposing opinions on trivial matters of a fucking video game, but if it's contrasting viewpoints about actual tangible real life issues, that must be faux outrage! That makes no sense.
 
surrogate said:
Why would you value the opinion of a stranger enough to become incensed?
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I go out of my way to avoid shit but when I'm trying to have a discussion with others about the ramifications of a any sort of law revolving around these things and someone comes in with "lol people who wear yoga pants are asking for it", why wouldn't I get frustrated?
 
Devolution said:
In real life people are generally better at being decent or you know them well enough that certain things don't need to be clarified. This is a huge forum with all kinds of people.
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I took philosophy classes and history classes freshman year of college that dealt with topics just as controversial and some even more in a moderated environment where students could voice their often ignorant opinion or play the thought-provoking, devils advocate POV, or the occasional enlightening, truly insightful comment that the majority could generally agree with a few exceptions on without anyone being asked to leave the room. A few members in every topic (it isn't always the same members) get overly offended over certain viewpoints for the IMO simple fact that they disagree with that viewpoint. I see more posts of people enraged over a post than people actually having constructive, and enlightening conversation.
 
Stet said:
What do you think the average ban count is for people who eventually get permabanned?
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The mathematical average would be pretty close to 1 because the ratio of juniors getting permed versus ongoing perms, so it'd be hard for me to calculate.

This year, I've permed 3 non-juniors. One was trying to hack and steal user accounts and had no prior ban history, I think you can understand why that merits a perm. One had 8 bans. One had 10 bans. My ban count is on the low end for active mods,

I'd guess the typical amount for a perm for a non-junior is maybe 6-10 bans, with leeway either way depending on the offence and the record. Someone who gets banned for something the day they get off another ban for that same thing is going to get it more harshly. I'd be more likely to perm someone with 4 bans for the same thing in 2012 than someone with 8 bans since 2004. There's no hard and fast rule.
 
Icbzm.png


RIP
 
Getting banned isn't THAT bad. Some time away from GAF will do you good!
 
Devolution said:
In real life people are generally better at being decent or you know them well enough that certain things don't need to be clarified. This is a huge forum with all kinds of people.
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If I meet a Republican in real life, I don't call them a fucking idiot and tell them I hope they die. People do say things like that to Republicans on GAF though. No one could be as outraged in real life as some people are on GAF. They couldn't function as a normal human being if they were.
 
Stumpokapow said:
The mathematical average would be pretty close to 1 because the ratio of juniors getting permed versus ongoing perms, so it'd be hard for me to calculate.

This year, I've permed 3 non-juniors. One was trying to hack and steal user accounts and had no prior ban history, I think you can understand why that merits a perm. One had 8 bans. One had 10 bans. My ban count is on the low end for active mods,

I'd guess the typical amount for a perm for a non-junior is maybe 6-10 bans, with leeway either way depending on the offence and the record. Someone who gets banned for something the day they get off another ban for that same thing is going to get it more harshly. I'd be more likely to perm someone with 4 bans for the same thing in 2012 than someone with 8 bans since 2004. There's no hard and fast rule.
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Interesting.

Also, I really like that you have an amateur psyche profile on Manos.
 
surrogate said:
Why would you value the opinion of a stranger enough to become incensed?
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Why would you value the opinion of a stranger enough to participate in a discussion forum at all?

I agree that the whole XKCD "lol I can't go to bed someone's wrong on the internet" points out the futility of trying to argue with a mule online, but I think it's pretty clear why people do that, especially on communities like GAF versus say the news site's comment section. I think message boards have a magnetic ability to make you feel like you know people.
 
Devolution said:
I go out of my way to avoid shit but when I'm trying to have a discussion with others about the ramifications of a any sort of law revolving around these things and someone comes in with "lol people who wear yoga pants are asking for it", why wouldn't I get frustrated?
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IMO those people are the ones who should be punished.

Really? Asking for it? lol
 
Stumpokapow said:
Why would you value the opinion of a stranger enough to participate in a discussion forum at all?

I agree that the whole XKCD "lol I can't go to bed someone's wrong on the internet" points out the futility of trying to argue with a mule online, but I think it's pretty clear why people do that, especially on communities like GAF versus say the news site's comment section. I think message boards have a magnetic ability to make you feel like you know people.
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...in fact, some people know you too well. Tell me, Stump, how big is your dossier of GAF psych profiles?
 
Sentry said:
I'm sorry but this is simply bullshit. You keep saying hive mind, but there are numerous polarizing opinions on gaf floating about every day. If there wasn't there wouldn't be conversations back and forth about everything. I hate the whole 'hive mind' argument, it doesn't apply to gaf anymore than it does to real life, imo.
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Actually I have only said hive mind once in this thread and it was possibly the only time I used it in my time on Neogaf.

Can you honestly tell me you never witnessed a bunch of people reply with variations of the exact same thing to a post? And I'm not just talking about reaction gifs either.
 
surrogate said:
Why would you value the opinion of a stranger enough to become incensed?
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This is the wrong way to think about the problem.

People's thought processes are shaped by society. Society is the gestalt of all the interactions you engage in and perceive. When people post sexist or racist stuff, it doesn't trouble me that they think that -- whatever, I know sexist and racist people exist -- but it troubles me that, by doing so, they are implicitly contributing to social norms which inculcate people in the belief that sexism and racism is acceptable, conventional, and unpunished. If you want to observe evidence for this process, all you have to do is look at the panoply of posts on GAF in which people seek societal approval for their actions or thoughts.

Posting about how that stuff is sexist and racist is an attempt to tilt the scale the other way and create a societal understanding that sexism and racism are unacceptable, unconventional, and will result in negative consequences -- and, also, to normalize the idea that speaking up about sexism and racism is a good thing to do, which if anything is an even less popular concept.

So it's not that I value the opinion of that stranger so much as that I perceive that they, and I, are both part of a society shaped by our statements and actions.
 
Trent Strong said:
If I meet a Republican in real life, I don't call them a fucking idiot and tell them I hope they die. People do say things like that to Republicans on GAF though. No one could be as outraged in real life as some people are on GAF. They couldn't function as a normal human being if they were.
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Speaking of outrage that may be exaggerated... Who calls for Republicans to die? I say to their face that they are a fucking idiot if they raise the topic of politics.
 
Stumpokapow said:
The mathematical average would be pretty close to 1 because the ratio of juniors getting permed versus ongoing perms, so it'd be hard for me to calculate.

This year, I've permed 3 non-juniors. One was trying to hack and steal user accounts and had no prior ban history, I think you can understand why that merits a perm. One had 8 bans. One had 10 bans. My ban count is on the low end for active mods,

I'd guess the typical amount for a perm for a non-junior is maybe 6-10 bans, with leeway either way depending on the offence and the record. Someone who gets banned for something the day they get off another ban for that same thing is going to get it more harshly. I'd be more likely to perm someone with 4 bans for the same thing in 2012 than someone with 8 bans since 2004. There's no hard and fast rule.
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I have a question. Does the jump from junior to member revolve around post count or how long you've been on Neogaf? Also when you make someone a junior again under certain circumstanes is that considered a harsher slap on the wrist compared to just banning them as a member? If someone is a reinstated junior would a ban be permanent?
 
 
You know, there is life outside of GAF. There are people who act the same way they do...outside of gaf.

Mindblowing I know.
 
Devolution said:
I go out of my way to avoid shit but when I'm trying to have a discussion with others about the ramifications of a any sort of law revolving around these things and someone comes in with "lol people who wear yoga pants are asking for it", why wouldn't I get frustrated?
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Frustrated, I could understand, but incensed is just a small step below rage. IMO Everyone is entitled to their opinion/viewpoint no matter how abhorrent anyone else may find it. I never let it affect me unless it's someone whose opinion I value or they are in a position to form public policy.
 
Trent Strong said:
If I meet a Republican in real life, I don't call them a fucking idiot and tell them I hope they die. People do say things like that to Republicans on GAF though. No one could be as outraged in real life as some people are on GAF. They couldn't function as a normal human being if they were.
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Agreed with the bold point. Also, I believe the people who overreact are equally as guilty and deserving of a ban as the person who posted an ignorant comment because they are uneducated on a particular subject.
 
Stumpokapow said:
Why would you value the opinion of a stranger enough to participate in a discussion forum at all?

I agree that the whole XKCD "lol I can't go to bed someone's wrong on the internet" points out the futility of trying to argue with a mule online, but I think it's pretty clear why people do that, especially on communities like GAF versus say the news site's comment section. I think message boards have a magnetic ability to make you feel like you know people.
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But I do know you guys... right?
 
surrogate said:
Frustrated, I could understand, but incensed is just a small step below rage. IMO Everyone is entitled to their opinion/viewpoint no matter how abhorrent anyone else may find it. I never let it affect me unless it's someone whose opinion I value or they are in a position to form public policy.
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When it comes to some people who have good opinions on things otherwise it can be jarring.
 
WanderingWind said:
...in fact, some people know you too well. Tell me, Stump, how big is your dossier of GAF psych profiles?
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I'm pretty bad with names and the most common reaction I have to another mod mentioning someone to me is "Who? What's their avatar?". I have a hard enough time remembering the students I need to give participation grades to, hahaha. Normally if I need to identify a GAFfer, I just search their ban record.

But I do love politics and political philosophy and like most Canadians I have an obsessive hangup about America and American politics and American everything so I naturally gravitate towards picking up posters who are active in those threads ;)

Also Manos and I have had quite a few conversations in various threads, and he did recommend me a great book a few years ago.
 
Sunflower said:
Getting banned isn't THAT bad. Some time away from GAF will do you good!
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Actually time away from the internet would do everyone good. Some people here aren't going to have very good eye's in the future.

Dead Man said:
If people tell me they think Mitt has good policies, or they support discrimination against gay people, or support wars of intervention? Yes, I do.
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I actually do as well, the problem with real life though is you have to tread carefully as things can lead to violence if up against the wrong people. The reason some people vent more on the internet is because at worst the most you can get is Ip banned from a site. I think that's kinda a fair assumption of why people are more likely to post different on the internet than real life, me personally I actually try to post exactly how I do act in real life i'm not one for fake acting people so I try not to do it myself.
 
Sviatoslav said:
Actually I have only said hive mind once in this thread and it was possibly the only time I used it in my time on Neogaf.

Can you honestly tell me you never witnessed a bunch of people reply with variations of the exact same thing to a post? And I'm not just talking about reaction gifs either.
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It's actually happened against me before, so no I can't say i've never witnessed it. But let's not be so farcical to say it's never warranted. A 'hive mind' is easy when they're agreeing on something so obvious.

However, i've come back from those too, where an opposing 'hive mind' posts in the opposite tone.. it's not as clear cut as you're making it out to be, is all i'm saying.
 
Dead Man said:
Speaking of outrage that may be exaggerated... Who calls for Republicans to die? I say to their face that they are a fucking idiot if they raise the topic of politics.
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I'm not going to call anyone out, but it's happened. And would you really call someone a fucking idiot to their face if they just bring up politics in real life? Several people I work with bring up politics all the time, and if I called them fucking idiots to their faces I would get fired. One of the guys who brings up politics all the time at work is about 6'6" and 280, so if I called him a fucking idiot he'd beat the fuck out of me.
 
What proportion of Republicans do you guys think would get banned on NeoGAF? I certainly don't think the percentage would be in the single digits.
 
Dead Man said:
If people tell me they think Mitt has good policies, or they support discrimination against gay people, or support wars of intervention? Yes, I do.
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So, an "I like this Mitt Romney fellow" is enough to get the profanities flowing?

You must be a real pleasant fellow, yikes.


Thankfully, in real life most people don't usually act like they would on the internet. Usually.
 
Feeling a bit bad for Blasty, the poor guy was almost panicking when the bannings started, and had only started to relax before he was banned in the second wave.
 
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