The way I saw it, you can affect the future, but not the past. Doing something to the past self affects things the future self does, but no matter what happens to a future self it can't affect the past self. So JGL right now killing himself so Bruce Willis doesn't exist has no effect on anyone from 1 instant before he did that. So everything Bruce Willis did still happened because it was in the past, not the future.
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Looper (dir. Rian Johnson; Gordon-Levitt, Willis)
- Thread starter Expendable.
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Bumblebeetuna
Banned
Saw it today with the wife. Enjoyed it very much.
the scene with Seth and his body getting destroyed, so good. worth the price of admission alone. one problem i had with the ending, why not just shoot Old Joe? then you can live with Sara and Cid and be done with it. i dont remember the exact specifics of that scene though, maybe he was not in range with his gun or something.
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The Everyman
the director has more or less said that it wasnt really meant to:
"even though it's a time-travel movie, the pleasure of it doesn't come from the mass of time travel. It's not a film like Primer, for instance, where the big part of the enjoyment is kind of working out all the intricacies of it. For Looper, I very much wanted it to be a more character-based movie that is more about how these characters dealt with the situation time travel has brought about. So the biggest challenge was figuring out how to not spend the whole movie explaining the rules and figure out how to put it out there in a way that made sense on some intuitive level for the audience; then get past it and deal with the real meat of the story.[14]"
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The Everyman
it was stated near the beginning that the blunderbuss is only really effective at 15 paces or something like that
soxinthebox
Member
Old Joe isn't as self centred as everyone makes out.
Great movie that works well when watching from beginning to end and leaving it at that.
It seems like he's going back to get vengeance for his wife but the loopers were figuring out who the rainmaker was before his time was up. It wasn't until they came to collect him did anything happen to his wife and he was already prepared to kill baby rainmaker. I found it a lot easier to empathize with Old Joe thinking like that but no one else I've spoken to saw it the same way so there's potential I was misinterpreting the events.
Great movie that works well when watching from beginning to end and leaving it at that.
even beyond what coolio's said, I don't think the enjoyment of movies like Primer comes just from analyzing "logical" events. Primer laboriously sets up an intricate TT mechanism not just so we can be all "hey that's cool" but also so we can comprehend the investment of the two leads and thus enjoy their relationship more. everything comes back to character. Which is why Looper works.
plus, the "logic" of Looper does work. They're new TT rules that aren't in other films, but they're internally consistent. there are no plot holes, just intentional ambiguities and newly constructed rules creating a different time travel system so the narrative can move.
also, hearty LOL at acting superior about growing out of sci-fi.
Being prepared to kill Cid before losing his wife doesn't really make Old Joe any better because that motivation was still preservation. He'd only want to kill Rainmaker because the guy was taking out contract-killers who had agreed to be on borrowed time. It's still selfish to kill for those reasons, especially when you're killing multiple children.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
I saw it yesterday and loved it. My MOTY so far.
When they said that the Rainmaker had a plastic jaw, the first person came to mind was Seth. Because they did mutilate and killed his Loop. So i thought they did not kill him. He becomes hateful of all the loops that that he wanted to kill them all.
Of course when the boy was introduced all the attention shifted to him. I love how the movie make 5 year old so threatening.
I love how the Movie developed Joe´s character in less than 10 minutes.
Of course when the boy was introduced all the attention shifted to him. I love how the movie make 5 year old so threatening.
I love how the Movie developed Joe´s character in less than 10 minutes.
Y'know, with all the dissection of the "rules of time travel" in this thread, I'm surprised that so few people realized the plot holes don't matter. Something to the effect of, "
," is stated by multiple characters. Even with that fed to us repeatedly, here we are trying to figure out something explicitly stated
.
I personally liked how time travel made plot holes; it adds to the characterization of the technology by showing how stupid things can get without breaking it's own rule set. No one should expect time travel to be cut and dry. With all that could go wrong, it'd be more akin to reaching into a cup full of spaghetti and coming out with a handful of size US 12.5 wide men's loafers.
That pretty much felt like how Looper portrayed time travel; it makes no sense (and it never will) and isn't supposed to, but it doesn't effect characterization negatively.
Time travel is super fucked up and you'll never figure it out, don't think about it"
as completely nonsensical
I personally liked how time travel made plot holes; it adds to the characterization of the technology by showing how stupid things can get without breaking it's own rule set. No one should expect time travel to be cut and dry. With all that could go wrong, it'd be more akin to reaching into a cup full of spaghetti and coming out with a handful of size US 12.5 wide men's loafers.
That pretty much felt like how Looper portrayed time travel; it makes no sense (and it never will) and isn't supposed to, but it doesn't effect characterization negatively.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
Holy fucking shit. This movie was sooo good. Way better than I expected.
And I just learned that he directed the Breaking Bad episodes "The Fly" (lol) and "Fifty One". Props to Rian Johnson.
Lastly, Emily Blunt is gaddam sexy with a shotgun.
And I just learned that he directed the Breaking Bad episodes "The Fly" (lol) and "Fifty One". Props to Rian Johnson.
Lastly, Emily Blunt is gaddam sexy with a shotgun.
Clay Davis
Member
correct me if I'm wrong, but
for them not to have met joe and for the other children not to have died, shouldn't joe have killed himself as soon as future joe looped back? he killed himself after future joe had killed the other child and after cid / sarah met him which meant that those events wouldn't unravel after he killed himself because they were now established history for current joe.
soxinthebox
Member
So what are some other time travel movies I should check out. I saw someone mention Primer which sounds interesting so ill grab that for sure. Any other recommendations?
That would be a decent argument except that we were shown the past being changed when young Joe gets killed and then that particular day where he let old Joe go the first time never happened.
This scene and what follows it shows us how JGL grew into Bruce Willis.
shira
Member
That was awesome, but if stuff was affecting things in real time
why didn't Bruce Willis' demeanor instantly change after JGL fucked the farm mom. He should have had zero sentiment towards killing the rainmaker/his chinese wife and he should have focused on saving the kid, especially after he decided not to kill the kid
Too many red herrings which could have been tied together.
pr0cs
Member
Saw it last night, fantastic film.
The ending had the entire theatre silent in awe, there were some holes in the middle of the film but nothing that ruined the story too much. I really like JGL, I hope they cast him in more action roles like this it seems to suit him IMO.
Thought Willis acting was 'less wooden' than his other movies as well which was a nice surprise.
The ending had the entire theatre silent in awe, there were some holes in the middle of the film but nothing that ruined the story too much. I really like JGL, I hope they cast him in more action roles like this it seems to suit him IMO.
Thought Willis acting was 'less wooden' than his other movies as well which was a nice surprise.
they did show though that
when it came to memory, old joe had a minute degree of control. Remember, he keeps trying to think of "the moment I first saw her" and due to young Joe's meeting Sara he keeps seeing sara's face. But after concentrating for long enough, he could see his original wife again.
Saw it last night and thought it was excellent, but I did find it hard to get attached to the rainmaker story. The first half had me blown away and I loved the sci-fi elements (plus, was surprised it has some noir stuff thrown in there). Even though I was caught off guard by the ending, I was a bit disappointed by it, though I'm not exactly sure why.
It seems like everyone I talk to loved the first half, but the 2nd half is pretty polarizing. The movie establishes this awesome universe then it all just kind of gets pushed into the background. I enjoyed all of it, but definitely understand people that have issues with it.
cj_iwakura
Member
Half a great movie, half a flawed movie.
First half was an awesome cyberpunk-dystopian film, second half was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles(1991).
Without the 'it's time to go back'.
Also, gosh was that
a stomach turner.
First half was an awesome cyberpunk-dystopian film, second half was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles(1991).
Without the 'it's time to go back'.
Also, gosh was that
amputee scene
Loved it.
I agree that the
scene was amazing. It was really well done and creepy. The nudity was unnecessary but overall it was great. The kid was brilliant and everyone else played their roles really well.
I try not to think about time travel too much because it's just too mind boggling with loops and alternate realities and what not.
I agree that the
finger/nose cutting
I try not to think about time travel too much because it's just too mind boggling with loops and alternate realities and what not.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
How was the nudity unnecessary? It's not like someone was running naked in a mall. Now that is unnecessary nudity!
cj_iwakura
Member
Well, something like that would hopefully serve a purpose, as opposed to 'let's have them be at a strip club'.
DangerStepp
Member
I don't think it was.
The movie was really good, though. Enjoyed it.
Anyone who goes into it trying to pick apart the logic of the time traveling is a retard. Congrats to the writing staff and director for something refreshing and new that wasn't a superhero reboot or shitty nostalgic childhood ruiner.
This movie accentuated JGL's acting ability; I haven't checked the thread all the way through, but there should be much appraisal for his skill. His Willis mannerisms were so good they were down right creepy.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
It is a very mob mentality to have a business running underground at a strip club, a dance club, a pub or a casino. That's what it showed.
cj_iwakura
Member
I'm going to write a mob film where their hideout is at a teeny fashion store.
DangerStepp
Member
Rue 21 or Wet Seal?
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
:lol!!
cj_iwakura
Member
Younger.
Saw it last night, really enjoyed it. Although I still maintain that JGL looked nothing like a young Bruce Willis under the prosthetics and more-closely resembled a younger Kyle Chandler from Friday Night Lights.
I also wish we'd gotten to spend a little more time with futuristic-badass JGL aside from the few quick-cuts we got, just to further explore in detail how fucked up his life was as a result of closing his loop.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Cause then the movie would've been a romantic-comedy called "Beatrix" and would be about a pallbearer learning french.
Davey Cakes
Member
Just got back from the theater. I really liked Looper. Enough time travel material without going into too much technical or stupid bullshit.
I was probably influenced by the Red Letter Media guys, but I agree with them that this movie didn't overdo it and was about more than just the concept of time travel. Additionally, it was pretty original overall, even if it sometimes seemed unoriginal in certain details.
The telekinetic bits worked for me, while also being entirely unnecessary. A take-it-or-leave-it aspect of the movie, but not a negative, and it did intensify some scenes.
The ending was superb, IMO.
I loved that detail.
I was probably influenced by the Red Letter Media guys, but I agree with them that this movie didn't overdo it and was about more than just the concept of time travel. Additionally, it was pretty original overall, even if it sometimes seemed unoriginal in certain details.
The telekinetic bits worked for me, while also being entirely unnecessary. A take-it-or-leave-it aspect of the movie, but not a negative, and it did intensify some scenes.
The ending was superb, IMO.
I loved that detail.
Saw it today... Finally. Loved the hell out of it. I thought it sagged a bit in the middle but it all finished well.
Still great though.
The whole "TK" thing felt a bit weird, mentioning it offhand at the start then bringing it back towards the end.
Those blunderbuss guns have an effective kill range of 15 feet. He looked to be about twice that distance away and Jo had no time to close that gap.
Great sci-fi at it core is about self sacrifice so joes end was fitting
Great sci-fi at it core is about self sacrifice so joes end was fitting
Mockingbird
Member
Man the whole time the 2nd act was happening I just kept on thinking of the Twilight Zone ep called "It's a good life."
Just saw it tonight, great movie.
I know plot holes are basically pointless to pick apart given the nature of the film, but it still felt a bit cheeky to have *ending spoiler*:
I know plot holes are basically pointless to pick apart given the nature of the film, but it still felt a bit cheeky to have *ending spoiler*:
JGL kill himself to stop BW from killing the mother. Putting his "endless time loop" realization aside, should there not have been more repercussions to having the "young" self die first?
Throughout the rest of the movie they tell us seriously bad shit will happen if the younger version is killed to also kill the older version... Hence the awesome mutilation scene to get Old Seth to give himself up, otherwise they could have just killed young Seth as soon as they found him. Not to mention several chances to shoot JGL on sight instead of just trying to capture him because of this "rule". But that whole line of thinking goes out the window when JGL needs to stop BW in that instant and pulls the trigger. Not a deal breaker by any means but I feel like that aspect could been handled a little better.
Throughout the rest of the movie they tell us seriously bad shit will happen if the younger version is killed to also kill the older version... Hence the awesome mutilation scene to get Old Seth to give himself up, otherwise they could have just killed young Seth as soon as they found him. Not to mention several chances to shoot JGL on sight instead of just trying to capture him because of this "rule". But that whole line of thinking goes out the window when JGL needs to stop BW in that instant and pulls the trigger. Not a deal breaker by any means but I feel like that aspect could been handled a little better.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
It could change the future timeline in huge ways, for good or for ill. Which probably isn't such a bad thing from Young Joe's point of view.
Hmmm... good point.
Now that you mention it, I suppose most/all of that particular rhetoric was coming from a crime boss from the future who wants to keep things running smoothly.
Thats what I took away from it:
all along they talk about how they are using this tech but don't really understand it, they follow a rule set that they think works but have no way of knowing the risks. They work to rule that you don't kill younger versions of people as they don't know how big an effect it will have on their empire / lives in 2074.
Joe gave not one shit about that, he just didn't want Sara to die / Cid to become evil and was willing to die just to get a shot at that not happening, on top of knowing he grows up to kill some kids and be stuck in the past.
Joe gave not one shit about that, he just didn't want Sara to die / Cid to become evil and was willing to die just to get a shot at that not happening, on top of knowing he grows up to kill some kids and be stuck in the past.
this is where the mindfuckery really kicks in. if old joe kills cid, and stops the rainmaker from coming into existence, young joe might decide to not become old joe anyway, not meet his future wife, or anything of that sort. in fact, the mob still would exist in the future, but without the rainmaker in place. they would just get joe, send him back in time, and have him close the loop.
maybe this is a series of time loops that has been going on for a while, where young joe lets old joe kill the rainmaker, or at least cid, and grows up to be an old joe who goes back in time to get shot by a young joe who goes on meets his future wife. the surefire way to end this cycle is for young joe to kill himself.
this time travel shit fries your brain like an egg.
maybe this is a series of time loops that has been going on for a while, where young joe lets old joe kill the rainmaker, or at least cid, and grows up to be an old joe who goes back in time to get shot by a young joe who goes on meets his future wife. the surefire way to end this cycle is for young joe to kill himself.
this time travel shit fries your brain like an egg.
Nanotech. Everyone has some in them and if you're killed anywhere it escapes and alerts the authorities. Seems far fetched, but maybe all the nobs, rich and elite have this in them to prevent murder.
I remember it saying it makes it hard to hide bodies. Are you sure itnsaid alerts authorities upon death?
Yeah it was in a you tub vid with the writer. All very vague though.
Since noone answered your first question.
They could kill old joe but it wouldn't necessarily solve the problem that Old Joe got away at all and was running around changing the future. They hope to just prevent this outlier even from occuring by killing Young Joe. Unfortuantely time causalities obviously didn't work like that considering what happened with the first guy who didn't close his loop. Regardless it makes them feel better knowing they tried closing the loop as best best as possible.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
I have seen this twice now, it is a good film but I think it is being slightly overrated. I would probably give the movie 3.5 stars, it is well acted, had some excellent scenes and good vision for the dystopian future, but I found the pacing in the middle to be too slow.
One of my biggest gripes was when
One of my biggest gripes was when
old Joe kills the kid, I think not enough time was spent showing how big a deal that was and how much it upsets Joe to realise it wasn't the rainmaker and he just murdered an innocent kid.
Really enjoyed the movie. Spoiler time
So let me get this straight, the rainmaker is actually Joe, when Sara went to check on Young Joe's body he had the scar on his cheek just like the one the kid had when old Joe grazed him with a bullet. That means when old Joe tried to remember his wife in the sewers he kept seing Sara's face, his mothers. So young Joe fell in love with his mother...... XD
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