Microsoft Surface Tablet announced

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zephervack said:
I think the general consumer has always wanted the iPad, the ones that wanted it and could afford it already have one and have bought many apps that pretty much holds them hostage to that platform, the only way Microsoft could compete was with a better price and they have failed, doesnt bode well for them to be honest :(.
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I don't think the general consumer has ever been given an alternative to the iPad that competes on design, build quality, and services. People keep saying you can't compete with the iPad at iPad prices, they are wrong. Lowering price is the easy solution, making a better device is the proper one.

buhdeh said:
I'm looking at it from the tech spec level and everything favors the iPad (ironic, considering it's Apple).
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Hardware wise, the iPad has a better display and a better GPU.
 
PG2G said:
I don't think the general consumer has ever been given an alternative to the iPad that competes on design, build quality, and services. People keep saying you can't compete with the iPad at iPad prices, they are wrong. Lowering price is the easy solution, making a better device is the proper one.
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ivvD9bXtX9MHy.gif
 
Lol. As much as they want to try and convince people, subpixel font smoothing (which has been present in desktop operating systems for many years) is not a substitute for high ppi panels. Wait till Surface 2 rolls around with the 1080p panel--they'll declare the old one subpar and revel in its pixels.
 
Anton Sugar said:
This is a very flawed way to evaluate or compare products, IMO. Hardware is only a part of the experience.
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Uhh, I don't think software or accessories are going to be an issue for iOS/iPad. Basically my point is the tech inside doesn't justify the cost to me when an actual premium manufacturer like Apple charges the same price for better tech and a better ecosystem.
 
PG2G said:
I don't think the general consumer has ever been given an alternative to the iPad that competes on design, build quality, and services. People keep saying you can't compete with the iPad at iPad prices, they are wrong. Lowering price is the easy solution, making a better device is the proper one.



Hardware wise, the iPad has a better display and a better GPU.
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What about both, better device and better price? Im sure it can be done, Apple marks up their stuff through the roof, some other company has to be able to create something a bit better while not marking it up as aggressively. I for sure thought Microsoft would be the one.
 
zephervack said:
What about both, better device and better price? Im sure it can be done, Apple marks up their stuff through the roof, some other company has to be able to create something a bit better while not marking it up as aggressively. I for sure thought Microsoft would be the one.
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another company might be able to better CPU/ GPU specs but it's much harder to match the media and app ecosystem. and it's that ecosystem that makes the ipad so popular.

The main reasons the Kindle Fire is the most popular ipad competitor is due to the price and the books/ movies/ media you can get in the states. (the original hardware and OS wasn't that hot, but it still did well based on the strength of the ecosystem and price)
 
giga said:
Lol. As much as they want to try and convince people, subpixel font smoothing (which has been present in desktop operating systems for many years) is not a substitute for a high ppi panels. Wait till Surface 2 rolls around with the 1080p panel--they'll declare the old one subpar and revel in its pixels.
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The Apple iPad Mini approach.
 
zephervack said:
What about both, better device and better price? Im sure it can be done, Apple marks up their stuff through the roof, some other company has to be able to create something a bit better while not marking it up as aggressively. I for sure thought Microsoft would be the one.
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I think you're caught up in the days of overpriced mac computers. The fact is, no OEM can compete with Apple on value in the tablet space. Go compare a iPad with an equivalently priced Android tablet. Apple has a lot of things on their side (economies of scale, moving work in house, supply chain) that make it nearly impossible for other OEMs to put out an equivalent product at a lower price.
 
because the new UI is used by traditional Windows PCs and Windows RT PCs I don't think you need to worry about the ecosystem building up. If Windows 8 is a failure, it will sell 200 million. I think iOS is at something like 400 million since 2007 although with the iPad now it has been growing a lot faster. (something like 50 million a quarter or whatever, which isn't that much compared to windows)
 
zephervack said:
What about both, better device and better price? Im sure it can be done, Apple marks up their stuff through the roof, some other company has to be able to create something a bit better while not marking it up as aggressively. I for sure thought Microsoft would be the one.
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The better device metric is subjective.

And the better price is just wrong.
 
buhdeh said:
Uhh, I don't think software or accessories are going to be an issue for iOS/iPad. Basically my point is the tech inside doesn't justify the cost to me when an actual premium manufacturer like Apple charges the same price for better tech and a better ecosystem.
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Again, I think the inherent productivity capabilities of the Surface, in addition to a promising app ecosystem (arguably has a better touch UI, functions, and capabilities), are enough to push the Surface over the iPad for me.
 
catfish said:
been thinking about the surface a wee bit, if the build quality is really up to scratch as the ads make it look, this really does destroy the ipad in pretty much everyway EXCEPT for apps. Which is admittedly a really large deal. Not one that concerns me as I'm getting the pro and can wait some years for the appstore to catch up.

Apple must be quite worried about this though, because app development may be low at the start, but being that they have the desktop to fall back on, MS can probably dump a bunch of their considerable programming resources into bolstering the app store themselves. Interested to see the first official apps coming out of the app store from MS themselves.

I use win 8 daily at home, Have NEVER yet downloaded an app from the store (but I'm using on a desktop which really feels kind of pointless).
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MS's dev tools are really sweet. Last time I used them was 2008, and I was highly impressed. But there are a lot of people out there that can leverage existing C# and MS knowledge to develop Win8 apps right away. Much more so than the learning curve for new devs to Objective C. Whether or not people on Win8 will actually buy the apps to make another app gold rush a popular thing among developers is an open question.
 
brotkasten said:
RT was made to enable cheap mobile computing with "Windows". Lenovo said that it should be possible to sell RT devices at a $200-$300 price point.

And yet we have (or will get) 3 RT devices with Tegra 3 that are priced well over that.

Surface $499 w/o keyboard

Lenovo 11" Yoga $799

http://i.imgur.com/w6SKZ.jpg


Asus VivoTab $599 w/o keyboard

http://i.imgur.com/PjySJ.png

What's the point?
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what happened was Windows 8 is a Premium OS.

and then Intel was like "Yo Engineering team, remember AMD? ARM is next! THEY GON' GET THIS WORK!"





NotTarts said:
I think part of the reason Microsoft went with 1366x768 is that the Tegra 3 can't really push 1080p with equivalent performance (ie, you'd have a situation similar to the iPad 3). The quad-core Snapdragon S4 can, but that was only released fairly recently.
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indeed, reviews for the 1080p Acer and Asus Android tablets talk about how they just don't run as smooth as their 720p brethren on the same Tegra 3 SoC.




giga said:
Lol. As much as they want to try and convince people, subpixel font smoothing (which has been present in desktop operating systems for many years) is not a substitute for high ppi panels. Wait till Surface 2 rolls around with the 1080p panel--they'll declare the old one subpar and revel in its pixels.
Click to expand...

Surface Pro has a 1080p screen.
 
I totally get why people will continue to find iPads more appealing than the Surface RT. The two devices I think are different enough. The iPad does nothing for me and yet I'm really excited about the Surface.

personally I don't think either make for a good enough dedicated computing device for me. laptops do nothing for me. my house is centered around my high end windows PC tower, which will be getting upgraded to Windows 8. as a sort of wireless client to that, surface appeals to me. knowing my metro apps will be shared between the two. knowing i can rdp to my PC and use the touch based interface of Windows 8 on the surface to quickly perform tasks when i'm on the couch or in the other room appeals to me.

I think pricing is pretty fair compared to the iPad, but i think Microsoft needed to be more aggressive if they wanted the surface specifically to take off. i don't have any fears about Win RT being a failure though. Windows 8 is going to ensure it gets pretty good app support and the enterprise integrations they've put into it make it seem much more likely to get picked up by enterprises than it initially seemed when we saw it couldn't join domains.

so i don't really care too much if the specific surface hardware succeeds or fails. if it's a flop, whatever. Zune was a flop and the devices are still being supported with an ever increasing library of music today. i trust that Win 8 is going to be strong enough to carry Win Phone 8 and Win RT support at a level i will be more than happy with.

the fanboy stuff going back and forth in here is pretty tiresome though. i don't care if the ipad succeeds or fails. i don't care if the surface succeeds or fails, both are devices with their own appeals, i think. i think with the touch cover and live account syncing and enterprise usage the surface offers enough to differentiate itself.

the iPad remains a great device that took off much more than i ever expected, that still doesn't really do anything for me... but the people i know that have them, love them.

i know i know. it's MS so it has to be directly compared to Apple... but that's where MS did do a really good job with the surface. it isn't just a 'me too' tablet. will their ideas resonate with other people? i don't care. they resonate with me.

and resolution is more than 'good enough' even if it isn't 'wow'. i'm using a 1280 x 1024 15" LCD panel here at work and i wouldn't ever say it was 'low' or 'poor' resolution. text and websites and videos look sharp, even though it's got poorer DPI than the surface.
 
Robobandit said:
I also ordered a 64GB yesterday..

and I also have a Nexus 7 and an iPad 3..

What can I say.. I just like devices and gadgets in general.
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Me too.

The plan is to do some mobile development and use these devices for testing.. but I wouldn't be surprised if I never get around to that and it's just my subconscious justifying wasteful purchases ;)
 
Totakeke said:
What is the actual footprint of Windows RT?
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In the Reddit AmA yesterday they said that there is "more than 20GB free" on a 32GB device after everything that comes preinstalled.

Looking around online, it sounds like a 32GB iPad has 28GB free after a factory reset.

But remember - the Surface comes with almost-full versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote pre-installed. That's on top of similar things that both Surface and iPad share, like Mail, Calendar, Music/Video/iTunes, etc.


The other important thing to remember is that Surface supports SD cards. While apps can't be installed to SD cards, you can potentially offload your entire music/video library to make room for more apps if you like.
 
dLMN8R said:
In the Reddit AmA yesterday they said that there is "more than 20GB free" on a 32GB device after everything that comes preinstalled.

Looking around online, it sounds like a 32GB iPad has 28GB free after a factory reset.

But remember - the Surface comes with almost-full versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote pre-installed. That's on top of similar things that both Surface and iPad share, like Mail, Calendar, Music/Video/iTunes, etc.


The other important thing to remember is that Surface supports SD cards. While apps can't be installed to SD cards, you can potentially offload your entire music/video library to make room for more apps if you like.
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If we look at the Samsung it had around 23GB's. If thats the free space of Surface I'm fine with that.
 
dLMN8R said:
The other important thing to remember is that Surface supports SD cards. While apps can't be installed to SD cards, you can potentially offload your entire music/video library to make room for more apps if you like.
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yep I will probably do that with whatever tablet I get. Looks like on Newegg a 64gb MicroSDXC card goes for about 60-70 dollars.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...796 600298530&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&Pagesize=100

wiki says SDXC supports up to 2 TB (potentially)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital#SDXC

edit: if you are a millionaire, you can buy a 256 gb card for.....$900 http://www.petapixel.com/2012/09/21/lexar-unleashes-the-worlds-first-256gb-sdxc-memory-card/
 
Just scored deal with microsoft about surface stuff. My bosses were shocked and dismayed when I reminded them about apple's presser on the 23rd, where the iPad mini is almost definitely going to get announced.

It's gonna be an interesting couple of weeks.
 
Mesoian said:
Just scored deal with microsoft about surface stuff. My bosses were shocked and dismayed when I reminded them about apple's presser on the 23rd, where the iPad mini is almost definitely going to get announced.

It's gonna be an interesting couple of weeks.
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I'm trying to figure out how I can get one from my Microsoft TAM.
 
dLMN8R said:
In the Reddit AmA yesterday they said that there is "more than 20GB free" on a 32GB device after everything that comes preinstalled.
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I'm kinda surprised that people aren't making a bigger deal out of this.

Not only are consumers getting boned out of 40% of the advertised storage space, but it means manufacturers will have a pretty hard time making low-cost/low-storage tablets. A 16GB model would only have 4GB of free space -- pretty much unacceptable. An 8GB 7" version to compete with Nexus7/Kindle would be impossible (though I suppose the cost of licensing WinRT already made it impossible).
 
border said:
I'm kinda surprised that people aren't making a bigger deal out of this.

Not only are consumers getting boned out of 40% of the advertised storage space, but it means manufacturers will have a pretty hard time making low-cost/low-storage tablets. A 16GB model would only have 4GB of free space -- pretty much unacceptable. An 8GB 7" version to compete with Nexus7/Kindle would be impossible.
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Windows RT is only licensed for use on a tablet that will have at least 10 GBs of space after the 'out of the box experience' completed. so 22 GBs seems to be the least storage one could have.
 
border said:
I'm kinda surprised that people aren't making a bigger deal out of this.

Not only are consumers getting boned out of 40% of the advertised storage space, but it means manufacturers will have a pretty hard time making low-cost/low-storage tablets. A 16GB model would only have 4GB of free space -- pretty much unacceptable. An 8GB 7" version to compete with Nexus7/Kindle would be impossible.
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Minimum requirement for a Win 8 tablet is 32gb, there will not be 16gb versions. And SD cards are really cheap these days.
 
border said:
I'm kinda surprised that people aren't making a bigger deal out of this.

Not only are consumers getting boned out of 40% of the advertised storage space, but it means manufacturers will have a pretty hard time making low-cost/low-storage tablets. A 16GB model would only have 4GB of free space -- pretty much unacceptable. An 8GB 7" version to compete with Nexus7/Kindle would be impossible (though I suppose the cost of licensing WinRT already made it impossible).
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Did you not read the rest of his post?

But remember - the Surface comes with almost-full versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote pre-installed. That's on top of similar things that both Surface and iPad share, like Mail, Calendar, Music/Video/iTunes, etc.
Click to expand...
 
Ask Microsoft Store reps to read the OP before they start selling it next week:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/...rt-surface-confused-microsoft-store-employees

One rep told me that only mobile apps would run on Windows RT.
When I asked about the Surface with Windows RT, one rep explicitly corrected me, saying that "the Microsoft Surface RT has Windows 8 on it."
One rep told me "They're pretty much the same thing, there is no real huge difference beside the RT is more touch friendly." Minutes later, they admitted: "also it can not do an installation of x86/64 and desktop software."
When I asked what "x86/64 software" was, the rep told me this: "It's nothing you'd care about, that's more for people who are building their own software." "I honestly can't say there's much a difference at all when it comes to a regular computer user. For an average user the differences between the pro and RT are slim."
One rep correctly rattled off a list of features missing in Windows RT, including Windows Media Player, Windows Media Center, Remote Desktop, HomeGroup creation... but failed to mention anything about apps. When I asked "Those are the only differences?" they said yes, but went on to mention how the Surface wouldn't come with a full version of Office. I asked if I could install an older copy of Office from a USB-connected DVD drive. They said yes.
When I pointedly asked that rep if Windows RT had any software compatibility problems I should be aware of, they replied "The RT version doesn't have any compatibility issues as far as I can tell."
One rep said, unprompted, that I wouldn't be able to do any photo editing on Windows RT, adding that "all of that stuff you'd normally be able to do on a computer you can't do here."
Several representatives said the Surface ran "Windows 8 RT."
One rep tried to convince me that Windows RT was better than Windows 8 in every way, mentioning only pros (no cons) when discussing the two operating systems. First they insisted that the only difference between the Surface with Windows RT and the upcoming Surface with Windows 8 Pro was merely a different operating system, and then a different type of processor, and then that it merely had access to an app store (as opposed to being restricted to that app store) and only finally, after half an hour of probing, that I wouldn't be able to install my legacy apps on Windows RT.
One rep said that I wouldn't be able to download apps onto the Surface, period, "because it's a tablet." They added that the Surface Pro would allow downloads. I had to probe further before they clarified that the Surface with Windows RT could also download apps, so long as you did so from the included app store.
One representative said the Surface couldn't run Windows 8 because it "wouldn't be able to handle as much information as Windows 8 requires."
Two reps told me that I'd be able to install my Steam games on the Surface with Windows RT. One qualified that it would only work so long as I transfered them over USB.
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Everdred said:
Well, I hope I don't regret it but I cancelled my Surface pre-ordered and opted for the Samsung 500T instead. Total price for Surface was $535 after tax. Bought the 500T online, which has Windows 8 Pro, 64GB memory and an inch larger screen. For $449. So for $115 more I get Pro, more memory, more screen and the ability to run all Android apps as well.

Samsung 500T
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834131397&name=Tablets
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This price includes the pen too?

JaggedSac said:
Is it likely that the Pro will have Haswell in it?
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Not likely at all since the spec sheets released yesterday states that it's an i5 Ivy Bridge with the Intel HD4000 integraded :(
 
numble said:
Ask Microsoft Store reps to read the OP before they start selling it next week:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/...rt-surface-confused-microsoft-store-employees
Click to expand...

Gonna be a lot of angry returns over the next few months.

LukasTaves said:
Not likely at all since the spec sheets released yesterday states that it's an i5 Ivy Bridge with the Intel HD4000 integraded :(
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not like they were going to miracle a chip out of the sky and into the Pro that doesn't even come out for 2 additional months.
 
border said:
I'm kinda surprised that people aren't making a bigger deal out of this.

Not only are consumers getting boned out of 40% of the advertised storage space, but it means manufacturers will have a pretty hard time making low-cost/low-storage tablets. A 16GB model would only have 4GB of free space -- pretty much unacceptable. An 8GB 7" version to compete with Nexus7/Kindle would be impossible (though I suppose the cost of licensing WinRT already made it impossible).
Click to expand...

well, to put things into perspective, manufacturers pay around $10 for an 8GB, $15 for 16GB, $25 for 32GB and $40 for 64GB in bulk for NAND flash used in those devices.
 
numble said:
Ask Microsoft Store reps to read the OP before they start selling it next week:
http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/...rt-surface-confused-microsoft-store-employees
Click to expand...

jesus that's some horribly trained staff.

and a horrible article too. 'Microsoft' = 'Microsoft Store Salespeople'? come now.

did they update this? http://www.microsoft.com/Surface/en-US/surface-with-windows-rt/help-me-choose because it's pretty clear to me that RT doesn't run standard desktop apps. they mention it at least twice.

edit: also, i love how they call it 'thinness' rather than 'thickness' on that comparison page. they're really treating this thing like a beloved child. wonder if they'll update 'weight' to 'lightness'.
 
Windu said:
yep I will probably do that with whatever tablet I get. Looks like on Newegg a 64gb MicroSDXC card goes for about 60-70 dollars.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...796 600298530&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&Pagesize=100

wiki says SDXC supports up to 2 TB (potentially)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital#SDXC

edit: if you are a millionaire, you can buy a 256 gb card for.....$900 http://www.petapixel.com/2012/09/21/lexar-unleashes-the-worlds-first-256gb-sdxc-memory-card/
Click to expand...

And if these tablets do any kind of business at all, Monoprice will create Surface cables/adapters for way cheaper.
 
plagiarize said:
jesus that's some horribly trained staff.

and a horrible article too. 'Microsoft' = 'Microsoft Store Salespeople'? come now.
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Except that the article is not entirely about MS Store employees. It's also about how Microsoft's marketing materials obfuscate and hide compatibility issues with the Surface, despite the fact that Microsoft said they would make the it clear to consumers.
 
border said:
Except that the article is not entirely about MS Store employees. It's also about how Microsoft's marketing materials obfuscate and hide compatibility issues with the Surface, despite the fact that Microsoft said they would make the it clear to consumers.
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go to surface.com. click on 'Choose the right Surface'. so the fine print on the store page isn't quite so clear... i don't think you can say the 'marketing materials' obfuscate and hide the issues. almost every page on the marketing site has a prominant link to that comparison.

yeah, the store page isn't as clear, but the official website puts it as the very first comparison bulletpoint, and then mentions it again in the second. that comparison page is hardly hidden.
 
plagiarize said:
go to surface.com. click on 'Choose the right Surface'. so the fine print on the store page isn't quite so clear... i don't think you can say the 'marketing materials' obfuscate and hide the issues.

yeah, the store page isn't as clear, but the official website puts it as the very first comparison bulletpoint, and then mentions it again in the second. that comparison page is hardly hidden.
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The fact that it has a desktop that you can't install the apps that people mentally associate with a Windows desktop is going to confuse the shit out of people for the next several months.

I almost wish they gave that product line conspicuously obvious name. "RT" isn't distinctive enough. I hope retailers are at least wise enough to keep RT and Pro tablet displays far, far away from one another.
 
Dreams-Visions said:
The fact that it has a desktop that you can't install the apps that people mentally associate with a Windows desktop is going to confuse the shit out of people for the next several months.

I almost wish they gave that product line conspicuously obvious name. "RT" isn't distinctive enough. I hope retailers are at least wise enough to keep RT and Pro tablet displays far, far away from one another.
Click to expand...

yeah, i'm not exactly sure why they felt it even needed a desktop. i guess so you can more easily juggle a couple of office apps and some websites. maybe we'll see quite a few 'desktop' apps sold through the microsoft store, but i'm doubting it.

but then, how many people are going to use this for productivity? obviously it's better at it than an iPad, but it's still really not that well designed for it, unlike the Pro.

hopefully that Verge article will spur microsoft on to send their store sales persons through another round of training. i really don't believe Microsoft are trying to mislead anyone here. they gain nothing from it, and the more confusion there is, the more damage is going to be done to them.
 
So, pre-ordered a 32GB version. Unfortunately here in Germany the black and cyan solo Touch Covers are already sold out. Can't understand why the black ones are sold out while the bundled version are still available, but hey why not spend 20€ extra while you can...

Really wanted the Surface Pro, but the wait (and probably the price for the Pro version) is killing me and I want this thing now. Think the RT version will not be "too bad" since I still got an iMac (with W7) and just need some mobile device running Office.
 
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