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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos
- Thread starter papersleeves
- Start date
- Status
lemonade? yea def not lol
Wait, I don't understand how mock reviews means PR and journalism is at all linked, if I understand the process correctly. Mock reviews are typically handled by third-parties. No money is exchanged between the publisher and reviewer. I also don't understand why Jeff thinks this can compromise people. The agency issuing the mock reviews wants honest opinions of the product they're evaluating, not biased ones. Sure, that means they probably shouldn't review that game for real elsewhere, but that aside, I don't understand Jeff's take on it.
Diablohead
Member
UK dew is just like a tropical lemonade style drink, the only import dew I have tried was an american can from a sweet store and I could feel my teeth rotting as I drank that stuff, it was also thick enough to chew.
Not even a can of monster was that sweet or rich.
Not even a can of monster was that sweet or rich.
Update: Added Gamesindustry 1-2, Weekend Confirmed 5, Kotaku 2
Current articles/videos/podcasts
Wings over Sealand (Stuart Campbell) articles (second article has early summary) 1 2 3
John Walker's (Rock Paper Shotgun) blog (start with Games Journalists, And The Perception Of Corruption, includes guest post by Rab Florence)
TotalBiscuit
Jim Sterling
Penny-Arcade 1 2
Gamasutra
Forbes
Worthplaying
GiantBomb
Jason Lauritzen editorial and GAF post
RPGCodex writes an excellent summary
Destructoid
BoingBoing
TheSixthAxis
EDGE article that was written a few weeks ago
PlayerOne Podcast
Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell (editor who edited Rab's column) about the last few days
Rock Paper Shotgun official stance
The Guardian and a funny thing related to the article
Giant Bombcast
VG247 on their new ethics statement
Video Games Interactive
Kotaku 1 2
Pocketgamer
Videogamer.com
Gamesindustry.biz 1 2
Old (but still relevant) articles/videos/podcasts
Rab Florence (the guy who started all this) criticizing games writing since 2008
An old episode of CGW Radio discussing Gerstmann-gate
Old Gamasutra article on the influence of PR
Old GFW radio bits
1up YoursShawn Elliot and Shane Bettenhausen
Comments from the industry
Shawn Elliot - 1 (aegies is Arthur Gies of polygon.com) 2 3 4 5 6 on the psychology of PR etc
and some more Arthur Gies - 1 2 3 4 5 and some replies 1 2 3
Jeff Green on the way it actually works, and another post, an another
ShockingAlberto on his view as a former games writer
Jason Schreier (Kotaku) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 and many more
N'Gai Croal initial reaction on Twitter
Chris Schilling (freelance) likes both people involved and so doesn't want to write about it
Danny O'Dwyer (Gamespot UK) on why his site won't cover this (audience is not interested) - 1 2 3
pastapadre on being shunned by the industry
Stephen Totilo (Kotaku)doesn't think this is an important story (has changed his mind about that part, read post 9). Wants to focus on good games journalism, this prompted a pretty funny picture and a comment about it, then Stephen Totilo enters the thread 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 (ignore the comment on 18, couldn't find a direct link to Totilo's comment) 19 20 (in reply to this
Weekend Confirmed 1 2 (these two are from the podcast) 3 4 (comments from Garnett) 5 (podcast #2)
Syriel on his experiences of PR
Jeff Gerstmann short comment on swag
Christian Donlan and Simon Parkin of Eurogamer want to change how they do things[/QUOTE]
Nert on his experience as PR in the tech industry 1 2
John Walker (RPS) onwhy the site won't cover it (they did anyway) like his blog did
Rab Florence tweets
Jeff Gerstmann 1 (1 is from Tumblr) 2 (2 via EternalGamer, highlights some other stuff) 3 4 5 (3-5 are comments by Jeff in this thread)
Christian Spicer
MaxwellGT2000 talks about his experiences as a writer for a small site that got bigger
Dave Long 1 2
Brad Shoemaker 1 (in reply to this) 2
Brad Lawrence (2K games UK PR)
Comments from others
GillianSeed79 and firehawk12 on how journalist do criticize their peers
voodoopanda highlights that the issue is not in any way black or white
Snowden's Secret comments on gaming press reactions
Zissou weighs in
Other relevant/interesting links and examples of PR
Examples of various press kits
The 3DS comes to GiantBomb
Letter sent to reviewers from UbiSoft along with their press copy of Assassin's Creed 3
How Rockstar handled the reviews for GTA4
Battlefield 3 review questionnarie
Current articles/videos/podcasts
Wings over Sealand (Stuart Campbell) articles (second article has early summary) 1 2 3
John Walker's (Rock Paper Shotgun) blog (start with Games Journalists, And The Perception Of Corruption, includes guest post by Rab Florence)
TotalBiscuit
Jim Sterling
Penny-Arcade 1 2
Gamasutra
Forbes
Worthplaying
GiantBomb
Jason Lauritzen editorial and GAF post
RPGCodex writes an excellent summary
Destructoid
BoingBoing
TheSixthAxis
EDGE article that was written a few weeks ago
PlayerOne Podcast
Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell (editor who edited Rab's column) about the last few days
Rock Paper Shotgun official stance
The Guardian and a funny thing related to the article
Giant Bombcast
VG247 on their new ethics statement
Video Games Interactive
Kotaku 1 2
Pocketgamer
Videogamer.com
Gamesindustry.biz 1 2
Old (but still relevant) articles/videos/podcasts
Rab Florence (the guy who started all this) criticizing games writing since 2008
An old episode of CGW Radio discussing Gerstmann-gate
Old Gamasutra article on the influence of PR
Old GFW radio bits
1up YoursShawn Elliot and Shane Bettenhausen
Comments from the industry
Shawn Elliot - 1 (aegies is Arthur Gies of polygon.com) 2 3 4 5 6 on the psychology of PR etc
and some more Arthur Gies - 1 2 3 4 5 and some replies 1 2 3
Jeff Green on the way it actually works, and another post, an another
ShockingAlberto on his view as a former games writer
Jason Schreier (Kotaku) - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 and many more
N'Gai Croal initial reaction on Twitter
Chris Schilling (freelance) likes both people involved and so doesn't want to write about it
Danny O'Dwyer (Gamespot UK) on why his site won't cover this (audience is not interested) - 1 2 3
pastapadre on being shunned by the industry
Stephen Totilo (Kotaku)
Weekend Confirmed 1 2 (these two are from the podcast) 3 4 (comments from Garnett) 5 (podcast #2)
Syriel on his experiences of PR
Jeff Gerstmann short comment on swag
Christian Donlan and Simon Parkin of Eurogamer want to change how they do things[/QUOTE]
Nert on his experience as PR in the tech industry 1 2
John Walker (RPS) on
Rab Florence tweets
Jeff Gerstmann 1 (1 is from Tumblr) 2 (2 via EternalGamer, highlights some other stuff) 3 4 5 (3-5 are comments by Jeff in this thread)
Christian Spicer
MaxwellGT2000 talks about his experiences as a writer for a small site that got bigger
Dave Long 1 2
Brad Shoemaker 1 (in reply to this) 2
Brad Lawrence (2K games UK PR)
Comments from others
GillianSeed79 and firehawk12 on how journalist do criticize their peers
voodoopanda highlights that the issue is not in any way black or white
Snowden's Secret comments on gaming press reactions
Zissou weighs in
Other relevant/interesting links and examples of PR
Examples of various press kits
The 3DS comes to GiantBomb
Letter sent to reviewers from UbiSoft along with their press copy of Assassin's Creed 3
How Rockstar handled the reviews for GTA4
Battlefield 3 review questionnarie
number1jagsfan
Member
Yeh, it is great isn't it?
Jake Tower
Banned
May I suggest adding this clip from Almost Famous to this section?
While I don't think we the audience should be searching for the 'Lester Bangs of video game criticism,' this clip succinctly explains the issues with critics/journalists being too 'close' to the subjects they cover.
FYI: in the summary post just above, item 3 for Weekend Confirmed points not to my direct comments, but Eternal Gamer's analysis of them.
My offering of what I think the Machinima system is certainly wasn't as an apologist. In retrospect I shouldn't have said anything but I thought it might be interesting.
And the point about turning it off was an aside. "I could probably" in reference to turning off the sound. If I have to turn off the sound that would mean that I've already decided that whatever commentary being given is not of value. Not that I accept it!
My offering of what I think the Machinima system is certainly wasn't as an apologist. In retrospect I shouldn't have said anything but I thought it might be interesting.
And the point about turning it off was an aside. "I could probably" in reference to turning off the sound. If I have to turn off the sound that would mean that I've already decided that whatever commentary being given is not of value. Not that I accept it!
Yeah he didn't provide a link so I just linked to his post. If you give me the link to your post I'll put that in instead.
Metacritic scores may not be scientific representations of a game's quality, but they are a predictable representation of a specific title's reception.
Once a game is at content complete, publishers already have an idea of what MC range to expect. Once a game has gone gold, there's no reason why a given publisher shouldn't know what the final MC score will be within a range of +/-3 points. It's PR's job to ensure that those reviews get written and to help ensure that the needle is pushed to the high end of that range.
That said, one question of I've never heard asked by any media (and I think it would make a *fantastic* story) is thus: "What are the implications of a publisher not pushing PR, or even pulling back on PR, in order to save bonus money?"
Think about it for a second. 10 points on MC can impact sales. But a single point or two isn't going to matter. And if a multimillion dollar payout to a developer hinges in a single point, doesn't the publisher have an incentive to encourage slightly lower reviews?
A game that hits 84 on MC is still going to sell well versus the same game at 85 on MC.
I've never had anyone go on the record with something like this, but I would be shocked if discussions like that hadn't taken place at multiple companies over the years. Anyone who could get someone on the record would have a blowout story to tell.
I think it's the same here. You know the US one has caffeine in it? Crazy.
I've not actually tried the US one, though. I knew the stigma it had while I was there about 10 years ago.
EternalGamer
Banned
When your response to the Machinima videos is 1) they are just gameplay feeds so they can't misrepresent the game and 2) someone could always turn off the commentary, I don't really know what that is other than a defense of them and their value.
Really enjoyed New Zealand Mtn. Dew when I was there. Definitely different from what I drink here at home.
so what you want him to say? its well known andrea works there I have never seen them hide that fact.
EternalGamer
Banned
I would like disclosures of conflicts of interest for anyone on the show rather than implicit arguments as to why this isnt a big deal.
We kind of know Andrea's situition (though not really) but that is only because of other sources not because it was ever disclosed on the show. Someone who only downloads the podcast and doesnt visit threads like this (which I imagine would be the majority of people who listen to the podcast) still would have no idea and it seems Garnett seems to want to keep it that way
I have a problem with that.
JakOfTheShadows
Member
9.8 this game be.
Fahey's description is apt for much of the US press as well. It's not all blatant, but it's there.
As an aside, one thing I like to do from time to time (mostly because it's just fair, but also because it throws a lot of PR folk for a loop) is to buy them a round of drinks.
It only catches folks off guard because, as a general rule, it happens so rarely.
Try it sometime. Watch the reaction and that'll tell you how unusual an coinsurance it really is.
Well he has an account here... maybe he fears the Streisand effect.
I can't speak for "much of the US press," and I'm not sure whether you're press or PR or what, but I doubt you can either. What I can talk about are my personal experiences. And when Fahey describes a world where reporters and PR rub elbows all the time and go out for drinks on company credit cards, he describes a world that is totally foreign to me, and I know/regularly see most of the professional games press in New York.
So Fahey might have the best of intentions when he writes things like "There is a deep and fundamental lack of professional ethics in the games media," but he's judging that based on his personal experiences, which are rather irrelevant to those of us who don't go out and let PR people buy us drinks every weekend.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Just to clear it up, do they not even try to take you and the people in NY that you know in the press out, or do they or did they try to take you and the people in NY that you know in the press out but after refusing for the umpteenth time they stopped even asking?
It might be more prevalent in the UK due to the size of the country, and that the proximity to the press for PR is much closer.
The USA is a big ass country, with LA and NY being a good 2400+ miles apart.
McBradders
NeoGAF: my new HOME
This is an important distinction to make, most things outside of games development in the UK occur in the south of England and around London.
I dunno, it just doesn't come up that much. I've had to turn some things down over the years, and I've gone out to some lunches and drinks (and usually paid for myself, IIRC), but it's not often I'm asked by PR folks to go out somewhere on their dime. I've never really experienced the elbow-rubbing culture that Fahey describes, which is why parts of this conversation have seemed so bizarre and foreign to me -- and why it bothers me that people are looking at the GMAs and thinking that everyone in games media acts like that.
I have a theory that game companies have started making games for critics, whose tastes are not the same as regular gamers. Why? because reviewers have to play games and it is their job.
Just look at the reviewer vs player feedback on ME3 for a good example of this. Reviewers aren't overly investing in the story of a game, fans are. So when ME3 had a tacked on ending which was obviously a result of crunch time deadlines, it wasn't delayed because EA knew it wouldn't impact Metacritic. Professional critics are (mostly) detached from a game, and so don't have the same emotional reactions. A bad ending doesn't matter much if the rest of the game is technically good and it checks all of the right bullet points.
For players emotionally invested in the series' story however, it was a major problem that, for some, ruined the series. Both viewpoints are valid as they are based on opinion and individual personality. But if EA was making a game first and foremost for fans, they would have delayed it so a better ending could have been coded. But that would not have meant better sales, because Metacritic=Sales, and metacritc is determined by critics with a different POV then fans.
So, take a game like New Vegas for example. It is maybe #13 on Steams most played list today. Absolutely astounding for a single player game released 2+ years ago. Fans love it. Yet the critical reception wasn't fantastic. How much of that comes down to Bethesda either cheapening out on the PR or Obsidian making a game for players vs one for critics?
At the end of the day, Metacritic cost Obsidian millions of dollars and really hurt the studio. Which is a shame because New Vegas is a fan favourite. (edit: PS. New Vegas actors pronounce ceasar "Ki-sar" because there is no soft c in Latin. It is touches like this that make New Vegas so awesome, imo.)
EternalGamer
Banned
Not only do they try, they do take games media out in New York. Stephen Totilo mentioned going out to dinner with PR reps in New York earlier in this thread. There was an extended conversation about it.
Here is the post by Totilo earlier in this thread:
Totilo said:
EternalGamer
Banned
I obviously am not a position to quantify how much and how close the relationships are, obviously. I was just pointing out that similar things were mentioned by Totilo earlier in this thread.
EternalGamer
Banned
Your, right. NervousXtian is the one that generalized from your personal experience to the U.S. press. I was just pointing out that other members of the U.S. press have described similar things.
I know it is a common practice that happens on occasion but I just generally think it is not a good idea. To me, saying it only happens "occasionally" is like me saying I only occasionally have dinner with my students, so it doesn't really have any influence on the grades I give them.
HyperCubed4
Member
It's a conflict of interest. That's the bottom line. Going to business dinners, publicity events, the circus (or whatever) with a PR rep is a conflict of interest. You're there to gather information and PR's job is to both give you positive information and make your trip as good as possible to help sway you in their favor.
Yes, it's entirely possible that you keep things strictly professional. But it's the same reason I can't nail that hot manager from work: it looks bad. Also, she's a prude and asking her out would be more trouble than it's worth, and she probably doesn't even want to date you anyway. What? Oh, right. Point being, getting buddy-buddy with people whose job is to sway you in their favor is a conflict of interest.
Someone at Gamasutra interviewed someone at Thatgamecompany during lunch about Journey. But it was Jenova Chen himself; he's almost undoubtedly going to say good things about it, but that's Jenova's choice. It's in his best interest to, but that isn't his job. If it was a PR rep however, you can bet it would look suspicious.
Yes, it's entirely possible that you keep things strictly professional. But it's the same reason I can't nail that hot manager from work: it looks bad. Also, she's a prude and asking her out would be more trouble than it's worth, and she probably doesn't even want to date you anyway. What? Oh, right. Point being, getting buddy-buddy with people whose job is to sway you in their favor is a conflict of interest.
Someone at Gamasutra interviewed someone at Thatgamecompany during lunch about Journey. But it was Jenova Chen himself; he's almost undoubtedly going to say good things about it, but that's Jenova's choice. It's in his best interest to, but that isn't his job. If it was a PR rep however, you can bet it would look suspicious.
Well that's a different conversation, and one worth having, but right now I'm not arguing about the ethics of business dinners, I'm saying the descriptions that Fahey pegs to all of games media do not reflect my experiences at all.
The question of "hey should a reporter be going out to dinner with PR folks in order to try to pick their brains and get information that can ultimately serve readers?" is far, far different than the question of "hey should a reporter be going out to drink on a game company's dime every weekend?"
The question of "hey should a reporter be going out to dinner with PR folks in order to try to pick their brains and get information that can ultimately serve readers?" is far, far different than the question of "hey should a reporter be going out to drink on a game company's dime every weekend?"
Is it really different, though?
In both cases:
- You are treated to a nice meal.
- Get information, that is super controlled.
- You think you are giving the reader fair content.
This. That's why there should be boundaries in any professional relationship. Dinners with regulators or people that are supposed to be keeping you in check shouldn't be within those boundaries.
In a not particularly connected aside, I was listening to a GFW Radio compilation today and was reminded of Jeff Green's visit to Bioware for a cover story.
They plied poor naive Jeff with robust Canadian beer until he passed-out. The rotters. The next day he was too hung-over to pay attention during interviews.
They plied poor naive Jeff with robust Canadian beer until he passed-out. The rotters. The next day he was too hung-over to pay attention during interviews.
If you see the world in black and white and you think taking a salad at a press event has the same weight as taking a free trip from a publisher, maybe not. If you live in the real world and recognize that ethical issues are always nuanced and that these things are a matter of levels, not sides, then yes, there are major differences between "Hey, Square Enix is in town, maybe I'll get dinner with their PR so I can get some face-time with people I work with all the time and maybe get some interesting info!" and "Hey, let's go to the bar, tab's on Square Enix!"
That's not how it's viewed from the outside, and I'm sure those PR folks aren't letting you pick their brains with no thought of you reciprocating with another favor or a good relationship.
chickdigger802
Banned
Speaking of which, is Totilo done with the post about all this yet? kotaku isn't working on my rss naturally.
Kotaku has been down all week because of the hurricane, so his piece had to be postponed. We're hoping to be back to normal tomorrow. I dunno when Stephen plans to run his story, but I'm looking forward to it.
So you're saying you think that reporters going out to dinner with PR people who are in town is the ethical equivalent of the scene Fahey describes, where reporters are taking free trips and rubbing elbows with PR at company-funded alcohol sprees every weekend?
No, but I can't say that what he reports doesn't happen all the time. I constantly hear people talking about E3 Parties or event parties. The amount of money that is spent promoting games, I can't imagine this is only a European or Australian practice, even if Kotaku doesn't participate in the unethical behavior that was described. Is the West Coast different because of the proximity of the development community and media offices?
jim-jam bongs
Member
that depends. do you disclose the fact that you were wined and dined by PR after you report the information you glean?
I dunno. It would be irresponsible for me to talk about what might or might not happen in San Francisco or LA or anywhere else in California based only on what I hear from people out there, which is why I'm only talking based on personal experience, and in my personal experience, the world that Fahey describes is totally foreign. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that part of that is because there aren't a lot of game developers in New York (although there are a lot of PR firms!).
EternalGamer
Banned
I only let 3 students take me to dinner last year but my friend in England let a different one take him out every week. Man, I am so much better than him.
Just kidding. We both are transparent about it so really it's totally cool regardless.
As far as I can remember I've never eaten on any game company's tab (other than taking food at press events), so that's never been relevant to me.
He shouldn't have too. And if you're the type of person who needs that type of reassurance, then it really doesn't matter anyway, as you've likely already made your mind up about that particular outlet.
At this point I think everyone who visits gaming sites has their group of writers that they trust. These people do not need to disclose their meetings over dinner, if they did/did not pay for a meal, or if they were apart of a trip to cover a game, because they've already proven themselves to be credible.
As the readers and consumers of these products, it's up to us to make the decision for ourselves whether or not we continue to give these outlets on the bubble clicks.
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