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[Ravager61]

Good post. I agree 100% that Wizards needs to do more to get people to play these eternal formats. Isn't the only reason for the reserved list simply because they don't want to piss off stores and retailers selling singles? I remember a few years ago they thought about getting rid of the reserved list but deciding against it was because dealers would have thrown a fit.

 

[Yeef]

Then why make such a big deal about him in M13 only to do nothing with it? I don't understand what they're building toward

Because they needed a villain for Duels of the Planeswalkers.

 

[OnPoint]

Because they needed a villain for Duels of the Planeswalkers.

You know, that's simple enough to be probable. How disappointing.

 

[ultron87]

Good post. I agree 100% that Wizards needs to do more to get people to play these eternal formats. Isn't the only reason for the reserved list simply because they don't want to piss off stores and retailers selling singles? I remember a few years ago they thought about getting rid of the reserved list but deciding against it was because dealers would have thrown a fit.

At this point it seems like they all pretty much agree that it was a bad idea and would get rid of it, but they both don't want to go back on their promise and there are some possible legal implications (because Maro always says that he straight up can't talk about it on his blog).

 

[Hero]

Right. So let me elucidate.

Magic is at an unprecedented high at the moment. This is factual. What is equally factual is that this is not a permanent high. There will be a drop off moving forward, simply due to the natural ebb and flow of the game. This is baked into the design of Magic, with the conscious decision to increase and decrease power of sets, create small run, limited products and their decision to largely stay out of the retail space, instead handing the reigns of their product over to companies like StarCityGames.

Who said this was a permanent high? I agree that Magic, like all other things, is something that goes up and down depending on various factors and it may be that INN-RTR Standard will be the most popular format of all time for quite a while but even if it dipped down to pre-INN levels it would still be more popular than it was 10 years ago. You used the term "crash" and "fad" which is extremely disingenuous. The biggest barrier that Wizards has is getting new players into the game which is what the video game is for now. People can learn the rules of the game and play it with a computer opponent without the crutch of having an experienced player help them and at least when they go to their local game shop they have a general grasp of how to play.

Like any industry that counts on cyclical sales, they need to minimize the amount of players leaving the game, which is why there are eternal formats like Legacy and Modern. Legacy is directly tied into the reserve list. It's also the format most out of WotC control, due to their decision to keep the list and, again, stay out of the retail space directly. StarCityGames runs the legacy format. They've also garnered a huge interest in the format due to their streams - something WotC has done with their streams of modern, as well.

You're not taking into account that even when Standard rotation happens despite some players quitting there will be players who are either completely new or returning to the game. I will agree that Legacy is completely out of Wizards' control at this point because they are being held back by the Reserved List. At the same time if a sole entity can make the Legacy format more popular than it has ever been, you can hardly say that the format is dead or dying. This year SCG has had their most popular Legacy Open events ever.

Modern is Wizards solution to an Eternal format where they're not hindered by the Reserved List and can reprint things as they see fit. However nobody should be disillusioned about how they take Standard much more seriously than any other format since it's where they make their money. For the most part, Wizards really doesn't care that much about players who are quitting Standard or who are moving into Eternal formats since they have already gotten their money from them. To a degree they care since naturally any competitive player will care about keeping up with the latest and greatest cards if they are tourney-viable but they will not spend as much money on the game as a Standard player will.

The problem with legacy as a format is twofold - first the initial buy in cost continues to increase. This will 100 percent lead to the death of the format as a whole because there is a decreasing supply of product due to inability or unwillingness to reprint cards that are simply essential to playing the format. Second, it's the format that is least impacted by newer cards. The deck archetypes will see some variance when major bombs hit, but it's not as often as modern. For all intents and purposes, legacy is living on borrowed time. And yet, it's a supremely popular format. The desire to play with the greatest cards ever made is strong and is a common thread between all player archetypes. Simply ignoring that desire of players wanting to enter the format at less than the cost of a car doesn't help grow the game or the format. Obviously, WotC is actively trying to kill the format for that very reason. Hence the creation of modern. They understand players want to continue playing after their cards are no longer standard legal. But is modern the answer?

The cost of Legacy is indeed a barrier to entry. However aside from extremely fringe cards that see play in very specific decks (Tabernacle, Candelabra, Moat) the only format staples that cannot be reprinted are the dual lands. The only reason that the dual lands are as expensive as they are is because of the law of supply and demand. The demand for the dual lands exceed the supply and thus prices are naturally high. If the Legacy format were to ever truly die then you could expect to pick up dual lands on the cheap. Like I said earlier in the thread, Wizards can definitely help out by lowering the cost on the format staples like Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, the allied fetchlands, etc by reprinting them. Do you believe that they don't see the opportunity for a Legacy Masters equivalent? Because I expect it down the line as long as Modern Masters is well received. They are not trying to kill any format.

In short, maybe. It's still a very new format. They're learning as they go along. They're printing cards that clearly have modern in mind (Deathrite Shaman) they're slow to ban cards in the format and they're even attempting new products that are designed specifically for that format (Modern Masters). The problem, is that modern is designed to funnel newer players into an eternal format, but they are actively discouraging that natural progression. Modern Masters was created and is being sold as "not for new players." They're creating an artificial barrier to the format at a time when they should be loosening the reigns on it, letting this hoard of new and returning players into the format. Instead, they're basically being told that modern is not for them. Goyf is still going to be 75-100 bucks, even after the product that isn't for anybody is released, due to mythic rarity and artificially small print run.

Modern Masters is not for new players, it is for veteran players. They want new players playing Standard at Friday Night Magic. How fun do you think it's going to be for a new player to take a deck that is essentially an intro deck or event deck into a Modern tournament where they're going to either get combo'd out on turn four or swung for 20 by aggressive decks like Affinity? Their intent is to get a new player into Standard and playing that format and eventually ease them into the Modern format at the end of a cycle so they feel that they can still play with the cards in their collection.

Also, without knowing the print run of the format, you nor anybody else can accurately make a prediction on how expensive Goyf will be after the Modern Master reprint. It's certainly not going to crash to a 10-20 dollar card but I'm not so sure it will maintain a 100 dollar price tag.

So, the format that should be the place for newer players to go after these couple of blocks rotate out is not really a viable option for them, is being turned into Legacy Pt 2. The same issues that are killing legacy will kill modern, if it's not managed better than it is now. So, the natural dip of players will be much, much more severe once they have no real place to go once their decks are worthless and unplayable in modern. They have to do a better job planning for the future of the game and not allow the temporary spike in popularity to go to their head. They need to answer the question "how do we make modern available to these players" instead of continuously fighting the game's own popularity with things like MM. When I said they reserve list is killing the game, I more or less meant the eternal formats. The issue is that eternal formats are very much the backbone of the entire game. You need to allow players a place to go if a block underwhelms, a massively successful block rotates out and players need to still feel validated in their purchases of the same and give the game some variety. Draft and standard are the exciting, sleek cars on the road of MTG, but eternal formats are the asphalt. How they're mismanaging both with the reserve list in legacy and turning modern into legacy because of it is going to lead to major issues in the long run. It's not unfixable and I'm not simply doom and gloom. I love the game, I want it to continue to be successful - that success leads to things like DFC, streams on Twitch, more GP's, more FTV's, etc, etc. I'm worried because they don't seem to understand how to handle major success and if they don't handle it right, it could be disastrous.


tl;dr: Marketing stuff about stuff.

Again, I would like you to back up the claims that Magic, even just Legacy, is dying. I've already stated that SCG has broken their Legacy Open attendance numbers more than once in 2012. That doesn't seem like a dying format to me. The other weekend GP Philly broke previous records for the most attended tournament and that was with the imminent thread of Hurricane Sandy. Mother nature isn't preventing people from playing Magic, I don't see high prices of cards doing any better of a job. You also completely ignored the casual, non-competitive side of Magic that Wizards is now directly appealing, marketing and making product towards with Commander and to a lesser degree Planechase and Archenemy. There are probably more casual, kitchen table Magic players than there are competitive ones and previously they had nothing aimed at them. Commander alone is helping to boost Magic's popularity since it's a format that isn't so cutthroat competitive and is about having fun with goofy cards and encourages multiplayer. Wizards finally wizened up, made a product for them and got a taste of how much money they are willing to spend on a set aimed directly at them that they are making one every year, that is incredible and would have never happened before.

The death of Magic has been heralded and claimed by many people over the past two decades and they are greatly exaggerated.

 

[WanderingWind]

Who said this was a permanent high? I agree that Magic, like all other things, is something that goes up and down depending on various factors and it may be that INN-RTR Standard will be the most popular format of all time for quite a while but even if it dipped down to pre-INN levels it would still be more popular than it was 10 years ago. You used the term "crash" and "fad" which is extremely disingenuous. The biggest barrier that Wizards has is getting new players into the game which is what the video game is for now. People can learn the rules of the game and play it with a computer opponent without the crutch of having an experienced player help them and at least when they go to their local game shop they have a general grasp of how to play.


You're not taking into account that even when Standard rotation happens despite some players quitting there will be players who are either completely new or returning to the game. I will agree that Legacy is completely out of Wizards' control at this point because they are being held back by the Reserved List. At the same time if a sole entity can make the Legacy format more popular than it has ever been, you can hardly say that the format is dead or dying. This year SCG has had their most popular Legacy Open events ever.

Modern is Wizards solution to an Eternal format where they're not hindered by the Reserved List and can reprint things as they see fit. However nobody should be disillusioned about how they take Standard much more seriously than any other format since it's where they make their money. For the most part, Wizards really doesn't care that much about players who are quitting Standard or who are moving into Eternal formats since they have already gotten their money from them. To a degree they care since naturally any competitive player will care about keeping up with the latest and greatest cards if they are tourney-viable but they will not spend as much money on the game as a Standard player will.



The cost of Legacy is indeed a barrier to entry. However aside from extremely fringe cards that see play in very specific decks (Tabernacle, Candelabra, Moat) the only format staples that cannot be reprinted are the dual lands. The only reason that the dual lands are as expensive as they are is because of the law of supply and demand. The demand for the dual lands exceed the supply and thus prices are naturally high. If the Legacy format were to ever truly die then you could expect to pick up dual lands on the cheap. Like I said earlier in the thread, Wizards can definitely help out by lowering the cost on the format staples like Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, the allied fetchlands, etc by reprinting them. Do you believe that they don't see the opportunity for a Legacy Masters equivalent? Because I expect it down the line as long as Modern Masters is well received. They are not trying to kill any format.


Modern Masters is not for new players, it is for veteran players. They want new players playing Standard at Friday Night Magic. How fun do you think it's going to be for a new player to take a deck that is essentially an intro deck or event deck into a Modern tournament where they're going to either get combo'd out on turn four or swung for 20 by aggressive decks like Affinity? Their intent is to get a new player into Standard and playing that format and eventually ease them into the Modern format at the end of a cycle so they feel that they can still play with the cards in their collection.

Also, without knowing the print run of the format, you nor anybody else can accurately make a prediction on how expensive Goyf will be after the Modern Master reprint. It's certainly not going to crash to a 10-20 dollar card but I'm not so sure it will maintain a 100 dollar price tag.


Again, I would like you to back up the claims that Magic, even just Legacy, is dying. I've already stated that SCG has broken their Legacy Open attendance numbers more than once in 2012. That doesn't seem like a dying format to me. The other weekend GP Philly broke previous records for the most attended tournament and that was with the imminent thread of Hurricane Sandy. Mother nature isn't preventing people from playing Magic, I don't see high prices of cards doing any better of a job. You also completely ignored the casual, non-competitive side of Magic that Wizards is now directly appealing, marketing and making product towards with Commander and to a lesser degree Planechase and Archenemy. There are probably more casual, kitchen table Magic players than there are competitive ones and previously they had nothing aimed at them. Commander alone is helping to boost Magic's popularity since it's a format that isn't so cutthroat competitive and is about having fun with goofy cards and encourages multiplayer. Wizards finally wizened up, made a product for them and got a taste of how much money they are willing to spend on a set aimed directly at them that they are making one every year, that is incredible and would have never happened before.

The death of Magic has been heralded and claimed by many people over the past two decades and they are greatly exaggerated.

I generally stop talking to somebody when they use "disingenuous" incorrectly, but I'll let it slide this one time. It's been the go to word for "I disagree with you" but that's not what it means. Nobody is trying to be deceptive here, Hero.

Anyway, your first point doesn't conflict with anything I said. We're in agreement that the game is at a temporary high. So, moving on.

You say that I'm not taking into account that there will always be new players. Of course I am. It's just such an obvious point to make, I didn't feel it necessary to point out again. The number of new players will not be enough to offset the outgoing new players, unless your position is now that this high is not temporary and is just the new plateau. Either could end up being true, but I don't believe it's going to stay at this high moving forward.

Now, about Legacy being popular right now. Yes, it is popular right now. Which is causing an even larger spike in prices on the staples that they cannot reprint. As those cards are bought up, the price on increases and since they won't be reprinted, it creates an ever increasing barrier to entry to new players - again, this new hoard of players that are enjoying the game. Unless we want to argue that they aren't interested in Legacy whatsoever, then I don't see how so far this in any sort of contention.

As for the rest, the rest of your point hinges on "Wizards really doesn't care that much about players who are quitting Standard or who are moving into Eternal formats." Which, of course, is EXACTLY my point. You don't stay successful by ignoring such a large customer base. You just don't. Again, it's not a guarantee they're going to continue to ignore them. Modern Masters and the entire modern format is proof that they're at least trying. But at this point, it's severely mismanaged. They need to stop treating that huge shifting base as ancillary to their primary base, because it's the same people in both. You ignore them in one arena and hope they don't care at your own peril.

 

[inanutshell]

There's actually not a good reason NOT to play Jace here with the amount of fixing the deck has.

Yeah, in a vacuum I should have probably played Jace since getting lantern or axebane guardian down would probably let me afford the uu casting cost. I let my two previous drafts affect my judgment since I just came off one where I lost 2 games where I couldn't draw a second white mana source with 8 in the deck 2 out of 3 games, and I lost another draft to aggressive decks so I didn't want to play something that would take a long time to affect board position. If I still drafted every day the right move was probably to play Jace just to evaluate how good he is in limited at the very least. Also, nothing beats winning a draft while showing opponents you also opened the highest value money card in the set while they complain about losing to jank.

 

[joelseph]

I have a hard time piloting super aggressive creature decks in RtR limited. Them darn defenders and cantrips get me everytime. Yet when I try and pilot a defender deck I get overrun with bombs.

 

[WanderingWind]

I have a hard time piloting super aggressive creature decks in RtR limited. Them darn defenders and cantrips get me everytime. Yet when I try and pilot a defender deck I get overrun with bombs.

RtR is full of hate for my favorite way to play, which is hoards of small creatures. Defenders don't worry me as much as Selesnya and that damn Loxodon Smiter. I hate that guy

 

[OnPoint]

Did they ever do the enemy cycle of these lands from Odyssey?

 

[Leunam]

There are similar lands to that in (old) Ravnica:

EDIT: Nevermind, I see what you're asking now.

 

[bigkrev]

Did they ever do the enemy cycle of these lands from Odyssey?

They made better ones in Eventide, after an allied colored set in Shadowmoore

 

[Yeef]

I'm waiting for them to print the Nimbus Maze cycle in a set. I like that land a lot.

 

[OnPoint]

They made better ones in Eventide, after an allied colored set in Shadowmoore

I have a few of those -- they're good. But the more lands like this the better... I'd love to see the enemy colors of the Odyssey setup in the future. I'm drifting further and further to wanting to play EDH... lol I hate that about myself but I love the format.

I'm waiting for them to print the Nimbus Maze cycle in a set. I like that land a lot.

That is interesting. I wonder why they haven't yet.

 

[f0rk]

That is interesting. I wonder why they haven't yet.

It's very similar to Glacial Fortress but worse.

edit: wait the colours are opposite. That's interesting but still a bit too complicated.

 

[Jarate]

am I the only person who doesn't like dual lands too much

makes it way too easy to splash in colors. (One of the main reasons why Thagtusk is so OP is because it's incredibly easy to splash in green in any deck)

 

[bigkrev]

I have a few of those -- they're good. But the more lands like this the better... I'd love to see the enemy colors of the Odyssey setup in the future. I'm drifting further and further to wanting to play EDH... lol I hate that about myself but I love the format.

I don't think you will ever see something like the Odyssey ones again- they aren't in the business of printing lands that don't tap for some sort of mana anymore- A hand of 3 of those egg lands and 4 spells is an auto mulligan, because you actually have a total of zero usable mana in your hand

 

[OnPoint]

am I the only person who doesn't like dual lands too much

makes it way too easy to splash in colors. (One of the main reasons why Thagtusk is so OP is because it's incredibly easy to splash in green in any deck)

I don't know if you're the only one, but I know I love them. The more options for color fixing in casual and/or EDH decks the better, thanks.

I don't think you will ever see something like the Odyssey ones again- they aren't in the business of printing lands that don't tap for some sort of mana anymore- A hand of 3 of those egg lands and 4 spells is an auto mulligan, because you actually have a total of zero usable mana in your hand

In a normal 60-card deck I wouldn't want them, but the odds of getting 3 of those in a hand during an EDH game is probably never going to happen.

 

[f0rk]

am I the only person who doesn't like dual lands too much

makes it way too easy to splash in colors. (One of the main reasons why Thagtusk is so OP is because it's incredibly easy to splash in green in any deck)

Being able to play more colours is good.
Thragtusk is a separate problem in that he should probably be at least double green.

 

[ultron87]

am I the only person who doesn't like dual lands too much

makes it way too easy to splash in colors. (One of the main reasons why Thagtusk is so OP is because it's incredibly easy to splash in green in any deck)

I dunno, I for one really enjoy casting spells and especially those of different colors.

I guess if they didn't exist there'd be one less expensive component you'd be wise to buy for X deck you are going to build.

 

[OnPoint]

I dunno, I for one really enjoy casting spells and especially those of different colors.

I guess if they didn't exist there'd be one less expensive component you'd be wise to buy for X deck you are going to build.

It would also mean far fewer deck choices and a narrower level of strategy. Splashing colors is one of my favorite parts of deck building.

 

[bigkrev]

I think the correct ratio of dual lands in standard should be 2 playable lands for each allied color (like the Fastlands from Scars, the M10 duals, ect), and 1 playable set for enemy colors. What I hate is when the mana in standard becomes a joke that something like http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27580 is an option

 

[ultron87]

It would also mean far fewer deck choices and a narrower level of strategy. Splashing colors is one of my favorite parts of deck building.

Yeah, absolutely. I wouldn't sacrifice the ability to build cool decks just to have things be cheaper.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

I know this may sound stupid, but what is a reserved list for legacy? Cards that won't be reprinted? Nvm, a quick google search answers it. That's a lot of power nine cards.

 

[Jarate]

It would also mean far fewer deck choices and a narrower level of strategy. Splashing colors is one of my favorite parts of deck building.

It depends on how well Wizards balances things...

oh wait...

I guess im looking through the game with the idea "if this game was properly balanced then dual lands would unnecessary"

and then we get cards like Delver and Thragtusk

 

[f0rk]

Just because powerful cards exist doesn't make a format unbalanced. It might be skewed around something, but that isn't intrinsically bad.

And Delver was a great deck, not one overpowered card.

 

[WanderingWind]

Thrag is making control be a thing again, so that's sort of a plus. I think counters are good for the game, even if they annoy me personally.

 

[Hero]

I generally stop talking to somebody when they use "disingenuous" incorrectly, but I'll let it slide this one time. It's been the go to word for "I disagree with you" but that's not what it means. Nobody is trying to be deceptive here, Hero.

Anyway, your first point doesn't conflict with anything I said. We're in agreement that the game is at a temporary high. So, moving on.

You used the term "fad" and "crash." You also explicitly stated that as soon as INN rotates out next year there's going to be a sudden, noticeable drop.

You say that I'm not taking into account that there will always be new players. Of course I am. It's just such an obvious point to make, I didn't feel it necessary to point out again. The number of new players will not be enough to offset the outgoing new players, unless your position is now that this high is not temporary and is just the new plateau. Either could end up being true, but I don't believe it's going to stay at this high moving forward.

INN followed by RTR is probably the biggest successes they could have ever asked for. Next year we have Modern Masters, the second Commander product and the 20th anniversary of the game. Can't imagine they wouldn't do something cool or awesome for that. Again, you're the one that used the INN rotation as the time frame. Not me. I definitely think it has room to grow and in the worst case scenario at least stabilize until RTR rotates out.

Now, about Legacy being popular right now. Yes, it is popular right now. Which is causing an even larger spike in prices on the staples that they cannot reprint. As those cards are bought up, the price on increases and since they won't be reprinted, it creates an ever increasing barrier to entry to new players - again, this new hoard of players that are enjoying the game. Unless we want to argue that they aren't interested in Legacy whatsoever, then I don't see how so far this in any sort of contention.

So... Legacy is dying because of the Reserved List, but the Reserved List cards are expensive because too many people want them to play with them? How does that argument make sense? Not to mention that I pointed out that a good majority of Legacy staples are eligible for reprint, something you ignore as well.

Legacy isn't for new players. A new player would rather buy a box of the newest set than spend it on a single dual land. Eventually there may be a point where the prices get too high for the format, but I don't think we're close at all. You're pretty much clinging onto this claim of "it's only going to get higher and higher, eventually it will bust."

As for the rest, the rest of your point hinges on "Wizards really doesn't care that much about players who are quitting Standard or who are moving into Eternal formats." Which, of course, is EXACTLY my point. You don't stay successful by ignoring such a large customer base. You just don't. Again, it's not a guarantee they're going to continue to ignore them. Modern Masters and the entire modern format is proof that they're at least trying. But at this point, it's severely mismanaged. They need to stop treating that huge shifting base as ancillary to their primary base, because it's the same people in both. You ignore them in one arena and hope they don't care at your own peril.

How are they mismanaging Modern? Aside from a few questionable bannings, they've banned the most oppressive, unfair cards in the format. They have just reprinted the shocklands, which last year going into Modern season were easily going for 40-50 dollars. Modern Masters will most likely inject enough copies of other staples like Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, etc to bring their prices down a bit as well. They also have expressed an interest in Modern Event decks.

I also don't think you understand how much of their money is made off the opening of new product. It is their entire business model which has worked for the most part for almost 20 years now. They have learned that they should do more to keep people around, as previously people would go to Extended but more often than not that was boring and still it was a rotation of sets. Modern is their new eternal format and now that they're pushing it and SCG is going to have Modern Opens, I see it taking off sooner rather than later.

 

[WanderingWind]

You used the term "fad" and "crash." You also explicitly stated that as soon as INN rotates out next year there's going to be a sudden, noticeable drop.

So? Disagreement isn't dishonesty.

INN followed by RTR is probably the biggest successes they could have ever asked for. Next year we have Modern Masters, the second Commander product and the 20th anniversary of the game. Can't imagine they wouldn't do something cool or awesome for that. Again, you're the one that used the INN rotation as the time frame. Not me. I definitely think it has room to grow and in the worst case scenario at least stabilize until RTR rotates out.

The current popularity isn't an issue. Not sure how you're not understanding that we agree on this.

So... Legacy is dying because of the Reserved List, but the Reserved List cards are expensive because too many people want them to play with them? How does that argument make sense? Not to mention that I pointed out that a good majority of Legacy staples are eligible for reprint, something you ignore as well.

How does it not make sense to you? They're sought after because they're necessary, they're expensive because they can't be reprinted. This is basic supply and demand, man. The supply is artificially created, doubly so. Once because of the natural and healthy TCG aspect, the second due to the reserve list, which even WotC has said they dislike now. And I'm not ignoring the other point because it's largely untrue. The major cost is tied up in dual lands, which are ineligible. Other cards that are not on the reserve list have also been talked about being ineligible to reprint, like FoW, barring Legacy Masters, which I agree would stem the tide greatly.

Legacy isn't for new players. A new player would rather buy a box of the newest set than spend it on a single dual land. Eventually there may be a point where the prices get too high for the format, but I don't think we're close at all. You're pretty much clinging onto this claim of "it's only going to get higher and higher, eventually it will bust."

New players become old players quickly. They're not different people, they're the same. This is a common mistake made when segmenting your populations due to internal demography. It's always a mistake. If you don't think Legacy prices are too high a barrier to players wanting to join in the format, then you're correct, we don't have much to talk about. It's my opinion, and the opinion of a great many others - including WotC - that it is.

How are they mismanaging Modern? Aside from a few questionable bannings, they've banned the most oppressive, unfair cards in the format. They have just reprinted the shocklands, which last year going into Modern season were easily going for 40-50 dollars. Modern Masters will most likely inject enough copies of other staples like Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, etc to bring their prices down a bit as well. They also have expressed an interest in Modern Event decks.

Expressing interest and creating small run products with high MSRP and no control on retail side is mismanaging the format they want as their eternal format. They shouldn't be restricting access to it, they should be - initially - opening it up to increase buy in on the front end.

I also don't think you understand how much of their money is made off the opening of new product. It is their entire business model which has worked for the most part for almost 20 years now. They have learned that they should do more to keep people around, as previously people would go to Extended but more often than not that was boring and still it was a rotation of sets. Modern is their new eternal format and now that they're pushing it and SCG is going to have Modern Opens, I see it taking off sooner rather than later.

No offense, but this has nothing to do with anything. Of course WotC makes their money off new product. Where else would they? I explicitly said this in my initial post. Again, you'e agreeing with me so much, I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with.

So far it seems that you think the reserve list is fine, I do not. You think modern is just fine as is, I do not. Is this a fair assessment?

 

[bigkrev]

Now, I wasn't playing or paying attention at all from Time Spiral to Rise, so maybe it changed, but I NEVER remember people who had been playing a while trying to transition to Legacy (or Type 1.5 as we used to call it). People who were going through there first major rotation, who were serious players were instead looking to Extended- it was a common PTQ format, and had between 7-9 blocks in it at any given time. No one cared about legacy at all until they separated the Vintage banned list from Legacy to make it a "real" format.

When Wizards murdered Extended as a format (by changing the rotation rules from 7-9 blocks to 4 blocks, basically making the format "super-standard", was when you started to see a rise in Legacy events. This was based on the fact that at the time, Wizards spent a year making sets based on Nostalgia (Coldsnap, Time Spiral Block), and followed it up with a year of drastic tonal changes to the theme of the game (Lorwyn feels completely out of place among magic blocks, and Shadowmoore shares the same problem). It was durring this era you saw large Legacy tournaments in Europe drawing big crowds, as well as Legacy GPs gaining steam.

With the rise of modern, as well as an overall rise in popularity of new sets that started with Shards of Alara, we are starting to see declines in legacy prices. The SCG Open in New Orleans on October 28th had UNDER 100 players in it. Just like in 2010 when SCG jacked up their buylist prices on Legacy cards (Like Wasteland for 50 dollars), they have started to jack up prices on Modern cards (the Fetchland jump of 2 weeks ago). I don't think it will happen in 2013, but in 2014, the Legacy Open will be a thing of the past, replaced by a Modern open.

Legacy just isn't important to WOTC anymore- with there new kick being video coverage of Pro Tours, Legacy isn't a Pro Tour format.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Which is why, more than anything, they need to get the Modern metagame under control. Pun definitely intended.

 

[Hero]

Again, you'e agreeing with me so much, I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with.

So far it seems that you think the reserve list is fine, I do not. You think modern is just fine as is, I do not. Is this a fair assessment?

I don't really know how one becomes so dense, so I'll quote your exact post that I is the underlining argument of yours that I disagree with:

The problem with legacy as a format is twofold - first the initial buy in cost continues to increase. This will 100 percent lead to the death of the format as a whole because there is a decreasing supply of product due to inability or unwillingness to reprint cards that are simply essential to playing the format. Second, it's the format that is least impacted by newer cards

Legacy is not dying anytime soon. The cost of staples are going up because more people want to buy in to play the format than cash out of it. I have asked you twice now to contribute any kind of concrete data or information that would even indicate that Legacy attendance is on a downward trend and in danger of becoming a dead format like Vintage.

Secondly, how much do you even know the format? "format that is least impacted by newer cards" is 100% disingenuous. RUG Delver uses Delver of Secrets as one of the backbone creatures that enables the deck to be as aggressively lethal as it is. Stoneblade uses Jace the Mindsculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull and Snapcaster Mage. UWx Counterbalance Miracles is a top tier deck that uses Entreat the Angels and Terminus. Master of the Pearl Trident and Phantasmal Image made Merfolk competitive again.

You say Modern is doomed to fail like Legacy when with Gatecrash Wizards will have reprinted all 10 shocklands and in June we have Modern Masters to help bring down the prices of other expensive cards. Apparently you want them to open up the floodgate and make Chronicles 2.0 so there is no cost associated with playing the game.

The Reserved List sucks but there is nothing that can be done about it.

 

[WanderingWind]

Christ, really kid? Learn to have an adult disagreement and get back to me. And you're STILL using disingenuous incorrectly.

 

[OnPoint]

The Reserved List sucks but there is nothing that can be done about it.

They could do away with it.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Christ, really kid? Learn to have an adult disagreement and get back to me. And you're STILL using indigenous incorrectly.

Tee hee.

 

[WanderingWind]

Tee hee.

Auto-correct, you art a harsh mistress.

 

[Ravager61]

For whatever reason that they can't talk about, Wizards can't get rid of the reserve list. This means it's harder for them to actually make money off of the Legacy format because people won't buy packs to get cards for it. Which is why Wizards wants to kill Legacy with fire. Modern Masters is pretty strong evidence of that.

If Wizards could convince Star City to change their day 2 tournaments to Modern, you can say goodbuy to legacy entirely.

 

[WanderingWind]

For whatever reason that they can't talk about, Wizards can't get rid of the reserve list. This means it's harder for them to actually make money off of the Legacy format because people won't buy packs to get cards for it. Which is why Wizards wants to kill Legacy with fire. Modern Masters is pretty strong evidence of that.

If Wizards could convince Star City to change their day 2 tournaments to Modern, you can say goodbuy to legacy entirely.

Yup. Pretty obvious. What's not really obvious is why they can't talk about it. It's got to be more than they promised at some point, so they're worried about some collectors trying to sue. I'm sure Hasbro (and now Disney!) lawyers could not care less about those types of threats.

One day, that'll make an interesting story.

 

[OnPoint]

For whatever reason that they can't talk about, Wizards can't get rid of the reserve list. This means it's harder for them to actually make money off of the Legacy format because people won't buy packs to get cards for it. Which is why Wizards wants to kill Legacy with fire. Modern Masters is pretty strong evidence of that.

If Wizards could convince Star City to change their day 2 tournaments to Modern, you can say goodbuy to legacy entirely.

Modern needs to diversify a bit then if that's the case. It feels like the top decks are all but decided.

 

[Ravager61]

It'll take time but I think it will get there. I was really close to buying into Legacy a few years ago but I'm kind of glad I didn't

If Wizards ever does strong arm legacy out of the picture, I imagine a lot of those big money cards will drop in price.

 

[WanderingWind]

It'll take time but I think it will get there. I was really close to buying into Legacy a few years ago but I'm kind of glad I didn't

If Wizards ever does strong arm legacy out of the picture, I imagine a lot of those big money cards will drop in price.

I've wondered that myself. Will SCG drop the format completely, you think? I wonder if there will be a split there. SCG wields an awfully lot of power right now and undoubtedly they get a lot of money from those hard to get money cards.

 

[OnPoint]

It'll take time but I think it will get there. I was really close to buying into Legacy a few years ago but I'm kind of glad I didn't

If Wizards ever does strong arm legacy out of the picture, I imagine a lot of those big money cards will drop in price.

As a proud owner of several dual lands, I welcome this. I want to buy playsets of all of them.

 

[Ravager61]

I've wondered that myself. Will SCG drop the format completely, you think? I wonder if there will be a split there. SCG wields an awfully lot of power right now and undoubtedly they get a lot of money from those hard to get money cards.

I do think you are going to see numbers slowly start to dwindle for Legacy as new players continue to enter the game and those money cards become less and less available. Once that happens, expect to see Legacy dropped. It may take some coaxing from Wizards, but I expect it to happen.

 

[WanderingWind]

I do think you are going to see numbers slowly start to dwindle for Legacy as new players continue to enter the game and those money cards become less and less available. Once that happens, expect to see Legacy dropped. It may take some coaxing from Wizards, but I expect it to happen.

I definitely agree that legacy is going bye-bye. No argument here. I'm not so convinced SCG will give it up so easily. I hope they do, honestly. I like WotC holding the majority of power in their own game. Legacy gives other entities more power than I think they should, to be honest.

 

[Ravager61]

Well it will take time but like I said, new players coming into the game means they simply don't have the card pool to play the format. Old timers unwilling to part with their cards, mean prices go up, which mean fewer can buy, means attendance goes down. It'll take time, but I'm confident it will happen.

I love playing Legacy but I won't be sad to see it go since I can never play it unless I borrow decks. Ideally I'd like Wizards to drop the reserve list and just reprint cards, specifically duals, but we know that will never happen.

 

[WanderingWind]

Well it will take time but like I said, new players coming into the game means they simply don't have the card pool to play the format. Old timers unwilling to part with their cards, mean prices go up, which mean fewer can buy, means attendance goes down. It'll take time, but I'm confident it will happen.

I love playing Legacy but I won't be sad to see it go since I can never play it unless I borrow decks. Ideally I'd like Wizards to drop the reserve list and just reprint cards, specifically duals, but we know that will never happen.

Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Hence the giant wall of texts. Heh.

 

[bigkrev]

Modern needs to diversify a bit then if that's the case. It feels like the top decks are all but decided.

Modern is SUPER diverse. The most recent GP in Lyon had 7 different decks in the top 8 (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck_search_result.asp?Location=2012 Grand Prix Lyon - 11/3), and 6 different decks in the PT top 8, with at least 10 different decks between them. There really isn't a more diverse format at the moment.

 

[Haly]

From an outsider's casual perspective, the whole Jund thing is a bit overblown. Yes, most decks are Jund, but that's because it's a safe and versatile deck. It is by no means the strongest and meta calls like Cifka's during PT RTR will probably define the winners of future Modern tournaments.

(Also if combo is winning a lot, which it is, it may also set the stage for the rise of control in Modern.)

 

[Hero]

Christ, really kid? Learn to have an adult disagreement and get back to me. And you're STILL using disingenuous incorrectly.

Adult disagreement? You've contributed no factual evidence at all, basically boiling down to "Reserved List boo hoo, Legacy is going to die and Modern along with it."

From an outsider's casual perspective, the whole Jund thing is a bit overblown. Yes, most decks are Jund, but that's because it's a safe and versatile deck. It is by no means the strongest and meta calls like Cifka's during PT RTR will probably define the winners of future Modern tournaments.

(Also if combo is winning a lot, which it is, it may also set the stage for the rise of control in Modern.)

Jund is only the most popular since it's overall very good and has a solid strategy especially with sideboard. It's definitely not the best deck, but I wouldn't enter a Modern tournament with a deck that didn't have a favorable match-up with it.

I also think it's extremely funny people say Modern isn't diverse and every time a big Modern tournament comes around a deck that nobody saw coming wins it. There is also more diversity in their top 8s than Legacy or Standard.

 

[kirblar]

I think the correct ratio of dual lands in standard should be 2 playable lands for each allied color (like the Fastlands from Scars, the M10 duals, ect), and 1 playable set for enemy colors. What I hate is when the mana in standard becomes a joke that something like http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=27580 is an option

They've actually come out recently and said they're starting to view not doing full 10-cycles at all times as a massive mistake because it limits deckbuilding too much.