Yeah in the US that would hold true I guess, but that is far less the case here in The Netherlands... There isn't as much a culture and racial divide between white Dutch and black Dutch.
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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
- Thread starter Opiate
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Yeah in the US that would hold true I guess, but that is far less the case here in The Netherlands... There isn't as much a culture and racial divide between white Dutch and black Dutch.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
It's not anecdotal evidence.
What relevance does this have to the subject at hand? Democracy can result in subjugation of a minority so we should just accept your refusal to change your traditional racist mascot because it fits with the historical status quo?
I think you need to go ly dow.
I don't really care what zwarte pieten look like. If they change the black make-up to other colors - fine with that. I'm pretty sure kids don't give a flying fuck either as long as they still get their candy, jokes and acrobatics.
But if I was under the impression the changes were made because non-Dutch were butthurt about it I'd be annoyed.
But if I was under the impression the changes were made because non-Dutch were butthurt about it I'd be annoyed.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Yes when it comes to racist depictions of a minority, only the dominant race should be allowed to dictate changes.
You seem really intend on twisting my words.
Edit: non-Dutch as in anyone not part of Dutch society e.g PC-obsessed Americans.
Are you sure it isn't because black people are afraid to protest?
Articles!
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/11/14...therlands-you-will-be-beaten-up-and-arrested/
http://www.humanityinaction.org/kno...ern-creations-of-stereotypes-of-black-peoples
http://www.heidisincuba.com/the-sincubator/2011/11/13/maak-me-niet-zwart/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjcFefsW-d0&feature=player_embedded
So you would prefer to keep the black caricatures if you felt the Dutch were feeling undue pressure from other cultures?
Why should we change something that isn't being perceived as racist by the overwhelming majority?
Sure we could be wrong as a majority, and don't get my wrong: I do understand your point of view, with your cultural background. But we could also be, and are in my opinion, right.
You as a foreigner who hasn't experienced it can jump up and down and scream racism, but that doesn't make it racism.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
No twist is necessary. You're saying that you would be mad if it was changed because of "butt-hurt" people. How is not wanting to change a historically racist depiction of your identity being "butt-hurt"?
Lol no.
Those were people trying to make a fuzz at the children's parade when Sinterklaas entered town. Fuck those people trying to ruin things for children. You can have a sensible debate whenever you want, but when you, on purpose or not, try to ruin festivities for kids, go fuck yourself.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
December 6th if you're Flemish.
The one incident with the protesters is being inflated, IMO. Dude didn't have a permit to protest (you need one), was asked to leave, didn't want to, behaved agressively (sorry, couldn't find English source). Maybe police used excessive force, but it was still a single incident. It's not like there's thousands massing in protests every year.
It's always in the name of the children isn't it? Drag a black man down the street and beat on him for the kids.
It is racist. You cannot argue otherwise. The origin is racist. The character depicted is a racist caricature. The image is entirely and completely racist. The question is really whether the Dutch are tolerant of this racist imagery. And yes, they are.
Yeah, except that is not what happened...
Kiraly
Member
You clearly read everything about it.
Festivities with 5,000 children present is not the place to spread your believes. He was asked to leave, he did not, the police arrested him (with force I admit).
It was the first anti-racism incident in all of modern-day Sinterklaas' history.
Chuckie
Member
While I totally disagree with the arrest of that guy... I am really surprised the article mentions a protester gets severely beaten.... like it's some Rodney King beatdown.... and then you watch the video and the guy doesn't even get one punch.
Dreams-Visions
Member
I'd prefer it if it was left to to the Dutch to decide what to do and how to act. I don't agree on a lot of traditions, customs, laws and policies in place in countries around the world but ultimately it's up to the people in those countries to change it if they feel the need.
They didn't get video of the whole incident, although he is getting kneed in the back in the beginning.
Question to the Zwarte supporters.
If an african american tourist was offended by this imagery, what do you tell them? After whatever explanation given is examined they are still offended. What do you tell them then? Do you tell them only black Dutch people are allowed to have opinions on the imagery? Do you tell them they are being narrow-minded and overly sensitive? Do you explain to them the imagery is absolutely not racist and they have no right to consider it so?
If this tourist were Barrack Obama, do any of your explanations change? Would you meet Barrack Obama dressed as Zwarte Piet?
If an african american tourist was offended by this imagery, what do you tell them? After whatever explanation given is examined they are still offended. What do you tell them then? Do you tell them only black Dutch people are allowed to have opinions on the imagery? Do you tell them they are being narrow-minded and overly sensitive? Do you explain to them the imagery is absolutely not racist and they have no right to consider it so?
If this tourist were Barrack Obama, do any of your explanations change? Would you meet Barrack Obama dressed as Zwarte Piet?
Dreams-Visions
Member
Oh nobody is looking to change it FOR you; only seeking that the Dutch see the plainly obvious and decide if it is still acceptable in 2012, then man up and accept it with the warts and the verbal lashings that come one way or the other.
Claiming its about the children is bullshit. As if children give a damn. This is all about the adults and will continue to be.
Big Baybee
Member
Yep.
Sure I can argue otherwise.
Although I agree that the roots are racist and that outsiders can easily interpret it as racist I argue that it isn't racist.
What is racist about it?
That white people where blackface? Not really a thing here in The Netherlands. I understand that is a big big thing in the US, but we didn't have those same problems in the same way as you guys. So different culture.
That he is a helper of Sinterklaas and is black? Not really a problem. People don't see it as a white guy calling the shots. Slavery was not a big thing in The Netherlands themselfs so we don't make those connotations. We probably did terrible things in Africa and Asia, but here it really wasn't a big a thing as in the US.
For all we care Sinterklaas was black and Zwarte Piet was white. It doesn't really matter. What matters to people is the change, why change stuff? To cater to foreigners who have a different cultural background who project their own racist history on our society?
Ok, cool. Short answer is: yes, still totally acceptable! Let's have this discussion again next year. Don't forget to bring your foam and apply it around the mouth.
Chuckie
Member
Can we then also have a discussion on American colonialism and the even more devastating impact on Native American America?
Big Baybee
Member
It's really sad that people can totally acknowledge the racist origins, yet totally push this as totally acceptable, even acting as if they are bewildered about why anyone would find it offensive. Sad but interesting.
I would tell them their interpretation is wrong and explain that even though its roots are racist modern day experience of Zwarte Piet has nothing to do with the past or is in any way negative. If they are still offended its their problem. I would tell them they are oversensitive and misunderstood. They have every right to hold their own opinion, but I would tell them its wrong.
Nope nothing changes if it was Barrack. I would love Barrack to dress up like Zwarte Piet, why not?
Kiraly
Member
We don't accept it's racist origins, we accept the modern-day Zwarte Piet.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
We do all the time. In this thread even, if you want to go back a page and see where it was discussed about how we had a period where we got rid of a lot of sports mascots that were seen as racist.
You say that as if Americans would be shocked or offended. This type of thing happens all the time.
http://www.dailynebraskan.com/arts_...cle_5653e834-2fa3-11e2-929e-001a4bcf6878.html
Chuckie
Member
I wouldn't call a racist mascot the pinnacle of the effects of American colonists on the American Native people.
You are really not getting my point. The person I quoted wanted to talk about the bad things the Dutch did to the African continent, so I wanted to talk about the bad things the Americans did to the American continent
Big Baybee
Member
Modern day Zwarte Piet looks the same as the racist one. Don't think that's a problem?
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Of course not, but the point is we have and continue to talk about the effects of that in modern America. And we make changes when necessary accepting the fact that you can't just pretend to divorce the past when it comes to clinging to tradition steeped in racially motivated imagery.
Many Dutch posters in this thread seem to be unable to do that though.
That isn't the topic of this thread nor is it relevant. Dutch history is relevant because you are using a mascot that is offensive on several levels that can be traced using historical relevance.
It's just like language and words.
Just like words a concept, in this case Zwart Piet, can have its meaning changed over time.
Although the concept used to be negative and racist, it isn't anymore over hundreds of years the concept of Zwarte Pieten has evolved.
Shadow of the BEAST
Banned
Sorry americans.
we dont need your forced racial relationships.
you can keep it. seal it. and put it in your archive.
we dont need your forced racial relationships.
you can keep it. seal it. and put it in your archive.
Why was it fine for his character to evolve, but is it objectionable for his appearance to do the same again?
Kiraly
Member
He did not have the outgoing, jolly personality and the coloured outfits the children love about them in the 19th century. His perception by kids has changed.
No since the old one isn't a thing anymore except in history books. People aren't confronted with a stupid black person who is the slave of a white guy. They meet a nice person who distributes candy and helps out.
Always-honest
Banned
Nobody gives a shit. It's the Netherlands.
What do you mean by "forced racial relationships?"
I've not heard that terminology before.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
The problem isn't only that you refuse proposals to change but you reject that the fact that it is seen as offensive and racist even by people in your own country.
I am not rejecting that there are people who do experience it as racist and offensive and everything. I just don't cater to them. Just as I don't cater to the minority who want to dictate that you can't swear on tv. Just as I don't cater to the bunch of junks that are the occupy movement.
Well for one thing the change happened over a long period of time. And has been for a long long time.
And why should it change when it isn't racist anymore?
If everything about him used to be racist, and you changed everything about him except his appearance, what makes you think his appearance is not still racist?
Big Baybee
Member
This is the million dollar question that no one wants to answer.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
Why not continue to evolve the legend so that people aren't offended by it? It is racist and people are still offended by the present representation and the only argument I've see against change is:
-it would somehow upset children
-fuck you america
-hurr traditions
Am I missing something or is there really zero reasoning for not evolving this Zwarte Piet guy further so that Dutch culture can be brought into the 21st Century?
-it would somehow upset children
-fuck you america
-hurr traditions
Am I missing something or is there really zero reasoning for not evolving this Zwarte Piet guy further so that Dutch culture can be brought into the 21st Century?
Cartoonish caricatures of minority races are racist. Please, post here the first images of Zwarte Piet, which all of you acknowledge were depicting blacks and post a picture of the modern rendition of Zwarte Piet who is supposedly no longer representative of any living human race. Please point out how the imagery has changed. What began as a racist caricature has remained completely intact.
As an optional question. Aside from clothing what specific traits characterize the "Sinterklaas look". What do you need to look like to pass off as Sinterklass.
Next, tell me, aside from clothing, are the specific traits needed to look like "Zwarte Piet"?
Chuckie
Member
Maybe not 'relevant' but surely really hypocritical. It's a bit odd to bring up Dutch colonialism and the effects it had on the African continent without stopping to think what you did to your own continent and its inhabitants.
And it's not just that.... a few pages ago someone posted an article...from 1 girl calling Rihanna a 'niggabitch' as an example of how racist the Dutch are.
Should I know post all those tweets of these last weeks...saying 'Obama should be hanged, that we don't want a nigger in the white house'.. to 'prove' how racist Americans are?
I know better than that.... that not all Americans are like that... so why bring up an article of one person (who lost her job over that) to prove a point?
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
No one here has claimed or is claiming the US doesn't have a race problem. We do, and it is know and talked about plenty. But that's not the subject of this thread. S no, it's not hypocritical at all.
Try again. Less strawmen please.
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