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[Onemic]

It's because the populace has a different understanding of what qualifies as offensive. Blackface has a thorough link to minstrel shows and its offensive content in America. Blackface here is uniquely linked to Zwarte Piet, which is not considered offensive in its modern form by Flemish/Dutch people.

What exactly is the modern day representation of Pete?

And blackface has the same link in Holland. Pete was created for that same purpose, to demonize and create a negative view of blacks. They might have changed his story over the years, but the link is still there. It would e a different case if they created him without the racial intent, then you could say that blackface in holland has no link to negative and racist views on black people, but that isn't the case. Even if the story has changed.

 

[Xeke]

Why is your understanding of Zwarte Piet better than the shared Flemish/Dutch understanding?

He is a blatant caricature of black people. It doesn't matter where you live to understand that.

 

[Metrotab]

What exactly is the modern day representation of Pete?

And blackface has the same link in Holland. Pete was created for that same purpose, to demonize and create a negative view of blacks. They might have changed his story over the years, but the link is still there.

With 'modern Zwarte Piet' I refer to the multi-faceted, talented assistants of Sinterklaas, not the black subservient slave/servants to the white master of (one of) its historic origin.

 

[Supermanisdead]

Yes. Yes. I guess.

Nevertheless he is not a caricature of black people. He was born out of one, but modern Zwarte Piet has been completely divorced of that historic origin.

He has painted skin and red lips because that's how Zwarte Piet looks like.

EDIT: You added a question. No, but he wouldn't be Zwarte Piet, as the abstract idea in our culture, anymore.

The point I'm trying to make is that Zwarte Piet can't be divorced of his historic origin if it's entirely a product of it's time. At no point in today's world (in any country) would Zwarte Piet be okay as a new creation. He's a racist relic of the past and not some whimsical myth like people hold him up to me.

 

[Rei_Toei]

Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.

That's the most succinct I can describe it.

Quoted because it wouldn't hurt if some people would read this again.

 

[Metrotab]

So Zwarte Piet is what exactly? Is he human? If so, what kind of human can he be described as?

He's considerably vague. There is a story of the chimney dust to replace the historical origin, but most kids don't really ask questions. To kids, they're simply Zwarte Pieten. Hard to explain.

 

[Log4Girlz]

With 'modern Zwarte Piet' I refer to the multi-faceted, talented assistants of Sinterklaas, not the black subservient slave/servants to the white master of (one of) its historic origin.

So a white man surrounded by unpaid servant black caricatures is not inherently racist?

He's considerably vague. There is a story of the chimney dust to replace the historical origin, but most kids don't really ask questions. To kids, they're simply Zwarte Pieten. Hard to explain.

Edit: Further question. Mr. Popo isn't even human. Why do so many consider him racist?

 

[Metrotab]

The point I'm trying to make is that Zwarte Piet can't be divorced of his historic origin if it's entirely a product of it's time. At no point in today's world (in any country) would Zwarte Piet be okay as a new creation. He's a racist relic of the past and not some whimsical myth like people hold him up to me.

And Flemish/Dutch people, like I, will tell you that it is indeed possible to do so, and that we in fact have done so with Zwarte Piet.

I have a sense this difference in understanding can't be resolved through argumentation though. Different perspectives and such.

 

[Big Baybee]

Quoted because it wouldn't hurt if some people would read this again.

That doesn't make the caricature any less racist. It's a tradition with a racist origin. You can tell me how the story has changed, how he is supposed to be coved in soot. I still see red lips and cotton wigs.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

And Flemish/Dutch people, like I, will tell you that it is indeed possible to do so,

Lose the black face, red lips and silly hair and we'll believe you.

At my University (Michigan), an elite secret society (Michiguama) was outted for its offensive Native American clothing and rituals. They claimed they changed from the origins which were intentionally designed to shit on Indian culture to "appreciate" it now. They even began admitting people of color as members.

They students demanded change (complete with sit-in protests) until all Native American stuff was gutted. Because without that, the offense remains.

 

[soepje]

Someone mentioned earlier that there was an outrage among the Dutch populace over Black Peter being represented by multiple colors recently rather than his signature black. Can one of you elaborate on what happened?

I'm curious if this outrage was due to a perceived "giving in" by organizers to appease protesters or if the concept of a non-black Peter is itself offensive to the Dutch.

In the weeks up to the 5th of december there is a daily show called Het sinterklaas journaal with the real Sinterklaas. It shows how sinterklaas is getting ready and just tells a story about what is going on. Usually something goes wrong, so that needs to be fixed so Sinterklaas can celebrate his birthday.

A few years back the main story was that the boat of sinterklaas went under a magical rainbow, and that made the pieten to change colours, instead of black they where blue, pink, green etc.

A lot of dutchies found it stupid, because its Zwarte Piet. They found the colour change not needed, because zwarte piet is not racist to begin with, and they found it a non-issue brought up by a only a select few that had problems with zwarte piet.

I think it had to do with the sudden change, as said before, most people in holland dont see anything racist about zwarte piet. So to change something drastically without reason will usually generate negative responses.

I'm guessing it was more of a shock for the parents then the kids tbh.

 

[Log4Girlz]

In the weeks up to the 5th of december there is a daily show called Het sinterklaas journaal with the real Sinterklaas. It shows how sinterklaas is getting ready and just tells a story about what is going on. Usually something goes wrong, so that needs to be fixed so Sinterklaas can celebrate his birthday.

A few years back the main story was that the boat of sinterklaas went under a magical rainbow, and that made the pieten to change colours, instead of black they where blue, pink, green etc.

A lot of dutchies found it stupid, because its Zwarte Piet. They found the colour change not needed, because zwarte piet is not racist to begin with, and they found it a non-issue brought up by a only a select few that had problems with zwarte piet to begin with.

I'm guessing it was more of a shock for the parents then the kids tbh.

Its always that darned select few causing trouble.

 

[Metrotab]

So a white man surrounded by unpaid servant black caricatures is not inherently racist?



Edit: Further question. Mr. Popo isn't even human. Why do so many consider him racist?

Literally every word here is incorrect in our understanding.
unpaid -> although the exact form of payment is not explicitly stated (Sinterklaas is vague), it is understood Zwarte Pieten and Sinterklaas are in a 'business' together. Not very logical, but which folkloristic tale is?
servant -> assistant. I have explained this before.
black -> But not black like black people. Zwarte Pieten aren't black people.
caricatures -> Not caricatures of black people, not anymore. They're archetypically upbeat and happy, but that's part of the Zwarte Piet character.

And I don't know anything about Mr. Popo. I don't think Flemish/Dutch people know him either.

 

[Goldrusher]

Let's bring in a dictionary...

racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior

There's nothing of the sort in the Sinterklaas festivities.

 

[Viewt]

So a white man surrounded by unpaid servant black caricatures is not inherently racist?



Edit: Further question. Mr. Popo isn't even human. Why do so many consider him racist?

Is he? I mean, I always assumed he was a genie as a kid, so I never thought about it.

But as I grew up, I mean, the dude looks exactly like a golliwogg doll.

 

[Kiraly]

Its always that darned select few causing trouble.

The majority found it incredibly stupid and the NOS (public broadcaster) got a lot of shit for it

 

[Metrotab]

Lose the black face, red lips and silly hair and we'll believe you.

No, because that wouldn't correspond to our Platonic idea of how Zwarte Piet looks like, and change our folklore for a perceived non-issue.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

No, because that wouldn't correspond to our Platonic idea of how Zwarte Piet looks like, and change our folklore for a perceived non-issue.

Then don't expect anyone to believe you. History is not lost, whether you want to pretend it is or not.

 

[Onemic]

With 'modern Zwarte Piet' I refer to the multi-faceted, talented assistants of Sinterklaas, not the black subservient slave/servants to the white master of (one of) its historic origin.

based on your perspective then shouldn't black face comedy not be offensive in the US anymore simply because its been over half a century since it was used in a racist context?

 

[Kiraly]

based on your perspective then shouldn't black face comedy not be offensive in the US anymore simply because its been over half a century since it was used in a racist context?

The use of Zwarte Piet and blackface compare nothing alike.

 

[soepje]

Its always that darned select few causing trouble.

Hey, i'm just trying to explain what happend, because he asked. In my opinion the rainbow piets where a pretty good solution.

 

[Metrotab]

Then don't expect anyone to believe you. History is not lost, whether you want to pretend it is or not.

It's up to Americans to decide if they consider our folklore offensive. In return, it's up to us decide whether Americans are right about it or not.

 

[Arjen]

I think that's actually why you'd find most Americans here to be less in favor of Black Peter. Racism is a real and terrible problem in America, and so Americans who oppose it are likely more sensitive to it worldwide than the average Dutch person, for example.

That's why the open dialogue here is so important. Not so anyone from The Netherlands can be lectured (because there's no point in talking down to someone - it's just going to make them more righteously indignant), but rather so that we non-Dutch can learn more about this tradition before we cast judgement or acceptance on it.

Personally, I'm not a fan. But then, I've never been one for preserving tradition (regardless of how it's been morphed over the years to lessen its racist overtones), so casting something like this out isn't a big deal to me. But it clearly is to the Dutch, where not only is this a beloved tradition, but the context itself is very different.

And i apreciate everyone who tries to understand the tradition and is willing to have a decent discussion about it. Fact is, every year, tons of people jump in this thread yelling how freaking racist we are for celebaring such an holiday. It's one of the few subjects that can make my blood boil. I'll try staying clear this year though, and not get to worked up over it.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Literally every word here is incorrect in our understanding.
unpaid -> although the exact form of payment is not explicitly stated (Sinterklaas is vague), it is understood Zwarte Pieten and Sinterklaas are in a 'business' together. Not very logical, but which folkloristic tale is?

So it is never stated he is compensated for his labor. Considering the racist beginnings of Piet being an imprisoned african, I am now wrong in assuming he is not being paid even though the tradition has never clarified he is being paid? I must be a fool.

servant -> assistant. I have explained this before.

It is often deemed racist when a black person is always depicted as an underling to a White man.

black -> But not black like black people. Zwarte Pieten aren't black people.

So these humans which are unquestionable black caricatures are not even considered black people?

caricatures -> Not caricatures of black people, not anymore. They're archetypically upbeat and happy, but that's part of the Zwarte Piet character.

The classic racist depiction of a black person is a charcoal black skin with big red lips. This is the classic racist depiction by white people for a very long time. And considering the origin story of Piet, this was the case with the Dutch. To them blacks were charcoal black and had big red lips. But now they just want to say "Ok, well these aren't really blacks anymore, so we're good". That doesn't cut it.

And I don't know anything about Mr. Popo. I don't think Flemish/Dutch people know him either.

Your thoughts on Golly Wogs?

 

[Kiraly]

So it is never stated he is compensated for his labor. Considering the racist beginnings of Piet being an imprisoned african, I am now wrong in assuming he is not being paid even though the tradition has never clarified he is being paid? I must be a fool.

It is a child's holiday, what the hell has whether he gets paid from Sint or not even got to do with it?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

The classic racist depiction of a black person is a charcoal black skin with big red lips. This is the classic racist depiction by white people for a very long time. And considering the origin story of Piet, this was the case with the Dutch. To them blacks were charcoal black and had big red lips. But now they just want to say "Ok, well these aren't really blacks anymore, so we're good". That doesn't cut it.

This.

And I'm surprised it has to be explained. Enjoy your holiday, but know where it's major elements came from.

We did the right thing with the secret society at my University. Maybe one day the Dutch will too. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[Log4Girlz]

It is a child's holiday, what the hell has whether he gets paid from Sint or not even got to do with it?

You do not see the racist overtones of black people working under a white man without compensation?

 

[Metrotab]

So it is never stated he is compensated for his labor. Considering the racist beginnings of Piet being an imprisoned african, I am now wrong in assuming he is not being paid even though the tradition has never clarified he is being paid? I must be a fool.

If you watch Sinterklaas shows, you see Zwarte Pieten work together with Sinterklaas in a pseudo-company. One Zwarte Piet is there for transport, one covers packages, etc. There's also Head Piet, who leads the operations and supports Sinterklaas, who in some interpretations is a bit old and distraught. Sinterklaas treats the Pieten with utmost respect, eats food together, etc. From that perspective it's understood they are compensated in some form. Assitants/employees, not servants.

The historical origin no longer has any function in the modern incarnaction.


It is often deemed racist when a black person is always depicted as an underling to a White man.

Are orcs racist for serving Sauron? It's a folk tale, it doesn't have to make sense.

So these humans which are unquestionable black caricatures are not even considered black people?

Not anymore.

The classic racist depiction of a black person is a charcoal black skin with big red lips. This is the classic racist depiction by white people for a very long time. And considering the origin story of Piet, this was the case with the Dutch. To them blacks were charcoal black and had big red lips. But now they just want to say "Ok, well these aren't really blacks anymore, so we're good". That doesn't cut it.

And Flemish/Dutch people, who grow up with the folklore and know Zwarte Pieten aren't black people in their experience, will say "that cuts it".

Your thoughts on Golly Wogs?

Responses are in the quote.

And I never heard of gollywogs. They seem to be minstrel dolls?

 

[Tha Robbertster]

You do not see the racist overtones of black people working under a white man without compensation?

Nothing is mentioned about Sinterklaas being payed either.

 

[Kiraly]

You do not see the racist overtones of black people working under a white man without compensation?

In a story for children? Tell me what folklore contains information about whether some character's assistants get compensation or not.

 

[Alx]

This discussion is taking a strange turn... Do you remember when we were kids and wondered if the elves in the North Pole were in a labor union, or if Santa paid taxes on the toys he put in our socks ? Because I sure don't.

 

[Viewt]

Here's a story that might give some added context to non-Dutch posters, and it'll lead to a question I have for supporters of Black Peter.

Some of you may remember that, back in 2005, there was a big controversy in America over the use of Native Americans as mascots in sports. People thought it was demeaning to use the image of a cartoonish caricature to represent a persecuted people. Sound familiar?

Anyway, this extended to my alma mater, Florida State University, and its use of the Florida Seminoles name. While some teams that were focused on that year ended up altering their name, FSU retained their use of the Seminole symbol because the Seminole Tribe itself officially recognized and publicly supported it.

So what you have here is the persecuted people themselves sanctioning the use of their image publicly.

My question to Dutch posters is, do black people feel the same way about Black Peter? Some of you have said that people don't even associate Black Peter with being African anymore, but surely adult black people in The Netherlands have some sort of opinion on the subject.

Oh, and to give added clarity, FSU did stop using "Sammy Seminole" in the early 1970s because that shit was straight-up racist.

 

[DY_nasty]

I don't understand why people gotta go through so many loops like this

Nothing is mentioned about Sinterklaas being payed either.

Its still racist. Do my bidding, afro-clowns.

Am I upset about it? No. Do I think most people saying that this is racist are "outraged"? No. I do think those same people get irritated when you have people saying that they're wrong for not taking a caricature of their race in stride and with a smile on their face. That's where the animosity is coming from.

If someone were to say to me "The Washington Redskins is flatout racist", I'm not going to get mad at them for not being cool with it. Even though its a form of racism that isn't plowing over their land or keeping them from getting a job or leading to a cross-burning - its still racist. Just acknowledge it. Its not going to kill you to say "Hmm... I can see how this would offend someone. Noted." instead of trying to label people as crybabies or whatever the fuck is going on around here lately...

 

[Log4Girlz]

Responses are in the quote.

And I never heard of gollywogs. They seem to be minstrel dolls?

First, a white man being in charge of a work force of exclusively black employees has racist overtones. When this white man is depicted as saintly and is wearing religious attire, it makes it even worse.

Second, you are comparing Orcs, which have no traditional depiction in anyway to an obvious black caricature?

Third, you justify the tradition of using black caricatures by explaining how they are no longer considered black people? These are black people. Worse still, they are caricatures of black people. Nothing has been done to alter the caricature whatsoever. Jet black skin and red lips have always been offensive, demeaning depictions of blacks. Regardless of the nation.

Nothing is mentioned about Sinterklaas being payed either.

Does he need to get paid when he has slaves do his bidding?

In a story for children? Tell me what folklore contains information about whether some character's assistants get compensation or not.

I cannot think of any other folklore where human slaves are regularly depicted. This is the origin of Zwarte Piet. If he has truly been modernized, every step should be taken to disassociate with a racist past. They should depict him being compensated. Otherwise it is an image of a black caricature working under a white man without compensation. A modern depiction of slavery.

 

[Onemic]

The use of Zwarte Piet and blackface compare nothing alike.

so the origins of Zwerte Pete have nothing to do with creating a negative caricature of black people? Because I've heard different in this thread.

 

[Kreed]

The Dutch were furious over this shit

Why were they furious? Is brown/black make up really that important to the character? Because this seems like the easiest solution to the problem (either that or also putting their Santa character in brown make up/black wigs/red lips). Even just changing the "soot" color to grey and giving them grey lips would work better and make this less of a controversy.

I know many in this thread have expressed that they don't want the characters to change because of US history since it has no bearing on this situation, but if there are people within the country complaining and if a simple color swap would fix it, why not go that route?

 

[DY_nasty]

Why were they furious? Is brown/black make up really that important to the character? Because this seems like the easiest solution to the problem (either that or also putting their Santa character in brown make up/black wigs/red lips). Even just changing the "soot" color to grey and giving them grey lips would work better and make this less of a controversy.

I know many in this thread have expressed that they don't want the characters to change because of US history since it has no bearing on this situation, but if there are people within the country complaining and if a simple color swap would fix it, why not go that route?

Yeah... Its not even about the US history at all. That's what so funny about all this.

 

[Rei_Toei]

Why were they furious? Is brown/black make up really that important to the character? Because this seems like the easiest solution to the problem (either that or also putting their Santa character in brown make up/black wigs/red lips). Even just changing the "soot" color to grey and giving them grey lips would work better and make this less of a controversy.

I know many in this thread have expressed that they don't want the characters to change because of US history since it has no bearing on this situation, but if there are people within the country complaining and if a simple color swap would fix it, why not go that route?

Because so far people complaining are a really small minority. Majority of the country doesn't see it as a problem.

 

[Daeda]

My question to Dutch posters is, do black people feel the same way about Black Peter? Some of you have said that people don't even associate Black Peter with being African anymore, but surely adult black people in The Netherlands have some sort of opinion on the subject.

Well, obviously the Dutch black community isnt homogenous, so its hard to say. Based on demographics I believe there are about half a million black people living in the Netherlands (out of 17 mil) Most of them don't seem to object (and even have their children celebrate the feast) but there is a minority that objects it. No idea how big this group is, but based on little media exposion, Id say thats only a small minority of the Dutch black population.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Because so far people complaining are a really small minority. Majority of the country doesn't see it as a problem.

Those pesky minorities.

 

[Baconsaurus Rex]

My question to Dutch posters is, do black people feel the same way about Black Peter? Some of you have said that people don't even associate Black Peter with being African anymore, but surely adult black people in The Netherlands have some sort of opinion on the subject.

I've seen black people celebrate Sinterklaas just like every other Dutch family, never ever have I heard them complain about racial stereotyping.

I'm serious when I say this: should I ask around to see what their opinion is?

 

[Arrowgigantic]

So how did I manage to read the first page of this thread and not see a link to

Six to Eight Black Men

 

[Log4Girlz]

I've seen black people celebrate Sinterklaas just like every other Dutch family, never ever have I heard them complain about racial stereotyping.

I'm serious when I say this: should I ask around to see what their opinion is?

Do so, but only when dressed up as Zwarte Piet.

 

[Metrotab]

First, a white man being in charge of a work force of exclusively black employees has racist overtones. When this white man is depicted as saintly and is wearing religious attire, it makes it even worse.

About the religiousattire: You'll have to ask a Dutch person about how protestants see the religious imagery. I live in catholic Flanders, where the religious attire is pretty much unnoticable. I don't think it's weird Christian influences are visible in folklore, since Christianity has had massive influence on the European continent for about 2000 years.

And once again, we don't see Zwarte Pieten as 'black'. They're 'just' Zwarte Pieten. The race doesn't even factor in in our understanding of the Platonic concept.

Second, you are comparing Orcs, which have no traditional depiction in anyway to an obvious black caricature?

Yes, because Orcs too are vaguely-construed myth humanoids, except in literary fiction instead of folklore. Zwarte Pieten are vague myth humans. The kids don't ask questions and if they do they get a vague answer about chimney dust.

Third, you justify the tradition of using black caricatures by explaining how they are no longer considered black people? These are black people. Worse still, they are caricatures of black people. Nothing has been done to alter the caricature whatsoever. Jet black skin and red lips have always been offensive, demeaning depictions of blacks. Regardless of the nation.

They were caricatures. But the modern understanding of the Platonic idea of the Zwarte Piet doesn't factor race into it at all.



Does he need to get paid when he has slaves do his bidding?

Folklore doesn't have to make sense. And they're not slaves.

.

 

[DY_nasty]

Because so far people complaining are a really small minority. Majority of the country doesn't see it as a problem.

Minorities, ugh

fuck those guys

 

[Metrotab]

so the origins of Zwerte Pete have nothing to do with creating a negative caricature of black people? Because I've heard different in this thread.

The origins of Zwarte Piet don't matter anymore. We threw it in the trash bin, because it was rightfully offensive and racist. It's Americans' choice to pick it back up when discussing modern Zwarte Piet.

 

[Metrotab]

Do so, but only when dressed up as Zwarte Piet.

If I had time and sufficient interest, I would do this around Sinterklaas. Their answers wouldn't differ. It really wouldn't.

 

[Xeke]

The origins of Zwarte Piet don't matter anymore. We threw it in the trash bin, because it was rightfully offensive and racist. It's Americans' choice to pick it back up when discussing modern Zwarte Piet.

So we could make a holiday with Hitler as the mascot and just retcon his origin and it's all good?

 

[itsgreen]

So Zwarte Piet is what exactly? Is he human? If so, what kind of human can he be described as?

I think most people here would agree that the modern iteration is just a race-neutral male that is turned black because of the chimneys he crawl through to deliver your presents...

 

[Log4Girlz]

.

They are caricatures. This did not change. Simply saying you no longer consider them black people does not change the fact they are still caricatures of black people. The skin color did not change. The lip color did not change. The hair did not change. They are still caricatures of black people. I can whip out a golly wog and say all day long it is not a black person, but that doesn't change the fact it is a caricature of a black person.

There is a reason why Mr. Popo, who isn't even a human, is considered racist.

I think most people here would agree that the modern iteration is just a race-neutral male that is turned black because of the chimneys he crawl through to deliver your presents...

And these chimneys give you nappy hair and red lips?