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[oneils]

Surely they can find real black people somewhere these days?

Probably can't find black people who are willing to play the part. Which I think is very telling...

 

[itsgreen]

So we could make a holiday with Hitler as the mascot and just retcon his origin and it's all good?

Godwin.

 

[Metrotab]

Why were they furious? Is brown/black make up really that important to the character? Because this seems like the easiest solution to the problem (either that or also putting their Santa character in brown make up/black wigs/red lips). Even just changing the "soot" color to grey and giving them grey lips would work better and make this less of a controversy.

I know many in this thread have expressed that they don't want the characters to change because of US history since it has no bearing on this situation, but if there are people within the country complaining and if a simple color swap would fix it, why not go that route?

Because it wouldn't be Zwarte Piet anymore. Zwarte Pieten look like Zwarte Pieten.

 

[itsgreen]

Probably can't find black people who are willing to play the part. Which I think is very telling...

There are plenty coloured folks playing Zwarte Piet, and yes even they wear 'blackface'...

 

[Rei_Toei]

Minorities, ugh

fuck those guys

Quality posting right there, dude. Thanks for that.

But seriously? Assuming you're from the US, you change stuff nation-wide because some people take offense? Don't make me laugh...

 

[Metrotab]

They are caricatures. This did not change. Simply saying you no longer consider them black people does not change the fact they are still caricatures of black people. The skin color did not change. The lip color did not change. The hair did not change. They are still caricatures of black people. I can whip out a golly wog and say all day long it is not a black person, but that doesn't change the fact it is a caricature of a black person.

That's because you are an individual.

Here we have two different cultures and societies(Flemish and Dutch), living in two different countries, saying the same thing about a shared folkloristic element: Zwarte Pieten are not, and will never again be, black people. They're simply Zwarte Pieten.

 

[Kiraly]

So we could make a holiday with Hitler as the mascot and just retcon his origin and it's all good?

Holy fuck, Godwin's law indeed.

I cannot think of any other folklore where human slaves are regularly depicted. This is the origin of Zwarte Piet. If he has truly been modernized, every step should be taken to disassociate with a racist past. They should depict him being compensated. Otherwise it is an image of a black caricature working under a white man without compensation. A modern depiction of slavery.

Children don't care whether he is compensated or not, thus it is not depicted. Sinterklaas is in the Netherlands for 3 weeks, the rest of the year he spends his time in Spain. What he does there, the story doesn't tell because the children simply don't care and have forgotten him already by the time it is January.

Probably can't find black people who are willing to play the part. Which I think is very telling...

Sure sounds like you know a lot about it! There are enough black volunteers playing Zwarte Piet.

 

[itsgreen]

That's because you are an individual.

Here we have two different cultures and societies(Flemish and Dutch), living in two different countries, saying the same thing about a shared folkloristic element: Zwarte Pieten are not, and will never again be, black people. They're simply Zwarte Pieten.

Exactly, they may be, because of their origin, a caricature of a black person. But they are no longer perceived as that by the Dutch and Flemish.. They are indeed just Zwarte Pieten and not black people...

 

[Zabka]

http://www.thedailyherald.com/supplements/weekender/23102-quinsy-gario-on-zwarte-piet.html

Shortly after my history lesson with Quinsy, I attended a formal debate on the topic. The moment that it all became real to me was when the question was asked: Who has ever been called Zwarte Piet? About sixty percent of the room lifted up their hand, the other forty percent that did not raise their hand being the white audience, including myself. My friend next to me had lifted her hand as well, telling me afterwards that twice a child had called her Zwarte Piet, and both times the parents did not correct the child. It's just a child though and he/she means well, because they like Zwarte Piet.

I realized, seeing those raised hands, that a child does make a link between Zwarte Piet, the mischievous helper, whose current depiction stems from slavery, and a person of African descent. It’s not a very positive image. Every year people that know the history must look at a reenactment of colonial slave-times being celebrated. To some it might be an innocent children’s holiday but to others it must be painful having to smile as the country cheers on Saint Nicholas and his helpers.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Because it wouldn't be Zwarte Piet anymore. Zwarte Pieten look like Zwarte Pieten.

Zwarte Pieten are caricatures of black people. This is the origin. Literally nothing was changed about the imagery.

Zwarte Pieten are depictions of caricatured black people.

That's because you are an individual.

Here we have two different cultures and societies(Flemish and Dutch), living in two different countries, saying the same thing about a shared folkloristic element: Zwarte Pieten are not, and will never again be, black people. They're simply Zwarte Pieten.

Again. Never will be again. He started black, looked black, well at least in the most racist manner possible and nothing has changed about that. All that has changed is that the majority had decided to alter his history slightly so that he is no longer as oafish. The imagery is the same. His relationship with Sinterklaas is still that of his underling, as you would describe as assistants. I've seen quite a few depictions where Sinterklaas has several black assistants.

The origin is racist. The depiction has not changed. It is a racist caricature. Now, if you're society does not feel this is an issue, then so be it. But over time I believe the momentum will build and more and more calls will be made to eliminate him from the celebrations. We'll see how long that takes.

Children don't care whether he is compensated or not, thus it is not depicted. Sinterklaas is in the Netherlands for 3 weeks, the rest of the year he spends his time in Spain. What he does there, the story doesn't tell because the children simply don't care and have forgotten him already by the time it is January.

Of course children don't care. This is a subliminal message being sent to them. Adults should care though.

 

[Socreges]

I hate these threads. Mostly because Dutch people distort history and even the present day in order to make the tradition look completely benign. They'll also argue that only sensitive Americans see it as even remotely offensive, which is also bullshit.

But these threads also suck because it seems like new people each year become aware of Zwarte Piet, which means that the same arguments and distortions are rehashed again and again.

 

[Big Baybee]

There are plenty coloured folks playing Zwarte Piet, and yes even they wear 'blackface'...

Is colored still a term used in Europe?

 

[Kreed]

Because so far people complaining are a really small minority. Majority of the country doesn't see it as a problem.

But this group is obviously going to grow as more knowledge of the holiday spreads. Why wait for that to happen if a color swap can fix it?

Because it wouldn't be Zwarte Piet anymore. Zwarte Pieten look like Zwarte Pieten.

My only experience with Zwarte Piet is from what I've seen and read on GAF over the years. And in most of the GAF threads on this subject, including this thread, there is discussion over the history of the Zwarte Pieten characters and their origins. I've read everything from them originally being "moors", to being covered in soot, to them being demons. Obviously their stories have changed significantly over the years and despite that the holiday/tradition hasn't been significantly affected by this. If they can change that much about the character without it being an issue, the color face paint being used can't be that serious.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Children, listen, you might want to pack a few of your things together before you go to bed. The former Bishop of Turkey will be coming along with six to eight black men. They might put some candy in your shoes, they might stuff you in a sack and take you to Spain, or they might just pretend to kick you. We don't know for sure, but we want you to be prepared.

.

 

[DY_nasty]

Quality posting right there, dude. Thanks for that.

But seriously? Assuming you're from the US, you change stuff nation-wide because some people take offense? Don't make me laugh...

Yeah. Believe it or not, it does happen.

Its not about making everyone happy as much as it is about "lets not be dicks for absolutely no reason". If there is a majority - there must be a minority. Don't be mad at me because I'm the second person to laugh at your ill-thought post.

They are caricatures. This did not change. Simply saying you no longer consider them black people does not change the fact they are still caricatures of black people. The skin color did not change. The lip color did not change. The hair did not change. They are still caricatures of black people. I can whip out a golly wog and say all day long it is not a black person, but that doesn't change the fact it is a caricature of a black person.

This.

Its plain and easy to see. Going off on some other shit is just being obtuse for no reason other than to run from a mirror.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

^ sums up what's happening here quite well.

http://www.thedailyherald.com/supplements/weekender/23102-quinsy-gario-on-zwarte-piet.html

Shocked I tell you. Shocked. Humans are the same everywhere. Children make base associations in these ways. Yes, they do. It's been studied and researched for years.

 

[Onemic]

The origins of Zwarte Piet don't matter anymore. We threw it in the trash bin, because it was rightfully offensive and racist. It's Americans' choice to pick it back up when discussing modern Zwarte Piet.

So like I said before based on your perspective then shouldn't black face comedy not be considered offensive in the US anymore simply because its been over half a century since it was used in a racist context?

 

[dragonelite]

One thing i know why its not really racist here.

There are so many racist things we can say to black people but Zwarte piet isn't one i heard or used. Maybe some kid will point to a black person and ask mommy if he is also a zwarte piet. Kinda like a american kid would ask his mommy if that fat white person with beard is santa.

 

[dondarm]

Good to see that cultural relativism is OK as long as Muslims aren't involved.

 

[Kiraly]

Is colored still a term used in Europe?

Probably stems from the fact that calling someone black in the Netherlands is extremely offensive, and 'neger' was considered correct (until American influence).

Coloured is the PC term used most often.

Of course children don't care. This is a subliminal message being sent to them. Adults should care though.

Only you see subliminal messaging. First time I have heard of such silly argument. Seeing unpaid black assistants to a white man in the past sure has made this a fucked up society! Hatred and violence against black people in the Netherlands is hardly existent.

 

[itsgreen]

But this group is obviously going to grow as more knowledge of the holiday spreads. Why wait for that to happen if a color swap can fix it?

My only experience with Zwarte Piet is from what I've seen and read on GAF over the years. And in most of the GAF threads on this subject, including this thread, there is discussion over the history of the Zwarte Pieten characters and their origins. I've read everything from them originally being "moors", to being covered in soot, to them being demons. Obviously their stories have changed significantly over the years and despite that the holiday/tradition hasn't been significantly affected by this. If they can change that much about the character without it being an issue, the color face paint being used can't be that serious.

I don't expect the group to change much because people who live in The Netherlands and Belgium can distinguish its past from the current tradition. So a majority will probably think "Ok, it has racist origins, but why should we change it? It isn't racist."

This isn't a sudden transition to the modern story, the modern story is already, I guess, 100 years old. The racial origins far precede the modern telling.

 

[injurai]

Not anymore!

what... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Only you see subliminal messaging. First time I have heard of such silly argument. Seeing unpaid black assistants to a white man in the past sure has made this a fucked up society! Hatred and violence against black people in the Netherlands is hardly existent.

Read that daily herald article posted a few posts ago yet?

Or are you going to stick your head in the sand over that too?

 

[Aiii]

http://www.thedailyherald.com/supplements/weekender/23102-quinsy-gario-on-zwarte-piet.html

Where this article goes wrong is that it perceives Zwarte Piet as a negative character, which in the children's eyes is not the case. In fact, kids love them, even more so than sinterklaas. Pieten hand them candy, play with them, perform acrobatics, give them the presents. Zwarte Piet is beloved, and if racial profiling is really part of his or hers (yes, Piet is multi gender) image, I contest that that image is negative. If anything, in that case, Piet would have a positive racial effect on children.

 

[Rei_Toei]

Read that daily herald article posted a few posts ago yet?

Or are you going to stick your head in the sand over that too?

Crap, we must've forgotten that article is the end-all of articles on the subject. Silly us.

 

[itsgreen]

Where this article goes wrong is that it perceives Zwarte Piet as a negative character, which in the children's eyes is not the case. In fact, kids love them, even more so than sinterklaas. Pieten hand them candy, play with them, perform acrobatics, give them the presents. Zwarte Piet is beloved, and if racial profiling is really part of his or hers (yes, Piet is multi gender) image, I contest that that image is negative. If anything, in that case, Piet would have a positive racial effect on children.

Exactly and it's like someone before this post said. That's just like a child in the US calling a fat white guy with a white beard Santa...

 

[Kiraly]

Read that daily herald article posted a few posts ago yet?

Or are you going to stick your head in the sand over that too?

Yeah, because a friend to an activist is surely to write with no agenda.

I have never heard once in my childhood (and now) of a black person being called Zwarte Piet, but I'm sure my story does not weigh as much as hers so you'll just disregard this!

 

[Jackben]

The mental gymnastics people are going through here to try and downplay this is almost comical.

 

[Daeda]

So like I said before based on your perspective then shouldn't black face comedy not be considered offensive in the US anymore simply because its been over half a century since it was used in a racist context?

Well, comparisons tend to be made with the most recent examples. If you'd start doing black face comedy again, obviously the comparison is to the racist shows. But this change is more gradually, which makes comparing to fifty years ago a bigger difference I think. If you keep doing something, meanings may change, if you stop using them the old meaning lingers on basically.

But let me propose a question in reverse:

Let's say we want to change this due to the racial undertones. Seems like a fair argument to all, so there is no reason for us Dutchies to object to that. BUT we have one demand: we want to keep the make belief of children in Sinterklaas intact.

The make belief is for children between say 2 and 9 years old. Let us assume that those children are able to compare Zwarte Piet year over year. So making them all white, yellow, green etc will get noticed. Also assume they are quite popular (they are) so children will no doubt ask were Zwarte Piet is if he's not there.

Give a solution that keeps into account these assumptions. In case you feel limited by not knowing the folklore: Propose a way in which to explain that Santa Claus is an African-American guy next year.

 

[Rei_Toei]

Taken today.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Yeah, because a friend to an activist is surely to write with no agenda.

Positive or negative agenda? Please, explain to me how you feel about his opinions.

 

[itsgreen]

Yeah, because a friend to an activist is surely to write with no agenda.

I have never heard once in my childhood (and now) of a black person being called Zwarte Piet, but I'm sure my story does not weigh as much as hers so you'll just disregard this!

I can totally imagine a child pointing at a black man and saying 'Zwarte Piet!'. But that's harmless. Zwarte Piet is in general a friendly character.

 

[Zabka]

Quality posting right there, dude. Thanks for that.

But seriously? Assuming you're from the US, you change stuff nation-wide because some people take offense? Don't make me laugh...

The US changes stuff like this all the time. We even changed Eeny Meeny Miny Moe.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Taken today.

Needs more blackface, red lipstick, and a big afro.

 

[Big Baybee]

Why can't he have black splotches like a person who has been through a chimney? Why does he still need the red lips and hair? No one has addressed this at all. Once again, changing the racist origin and keeping the racist imagery seems really silly. Most have acknowledged that how the character looks is a direct result of racial caricature. Tradition is a bullshit argument, really.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Ugh. That's how I feel about this whole thing. But whatever, I'm used to racist shit and people going "Nu-uh! It's totally not racist".

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Crap, we must've forgotten that article is the end-all of articles on the subject. Silly us.

You sound a bit upset?

I'd link you a few more but I'm on my phone sitting at a conference watching a surgery. You can always research the effects and awareness of color on children. There are some fantastic articles and research papers on the subjects.

Not that I expect you to, but I'd be doing a disservice to you as an intelligent young man to not mention that.

I may link an article or two when I get home if I feel up to finding them. Otherwise, good luck on your researching. Or enjoy the sand dune your head is in.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Taken today.

I think the white man carrying the child should have put cherry red lipstick on them.

 

[oneils]

Where this article goes wrong is that it perceives Zwarte Piet as a negative character, which in the children's eyes is not the case. In fact, kids love them, even more so than sinterklaas. Pieten hand them candy, play with them, perform acrobatics, give them the presents. Zwarte Piet is beloved, and if racial profiling is really part of his or hers (yes, Piet is multi gender) image, I contest that that image is negative. If anything, in that case, Piet would have a positive racial effect on children.

But it kind of puts to rest the argument that Zwarte Piet is not a black person, he is simply Zwarte Piet. Apparently the kids aren't reading that memo and are calling black people "Zwarte Piet."

 

[Rei_Toei]

The US changes stuff like this all the time. We even changed Eeny Meeny Miny Moe.

The point I was trying to made was that there are loads of 'minorities' (be it in the political/religious/ethnical sense) everywehere with views and beliefs at odds with the general consensus that aren't getting catered to. Tyranny of the majority is part of a democracy.

 

[Kabouter]

Zwarte Piet is an incredibly beloved character in the Netherlands and Belgium, he together with Sinterklaas has brought countless people joy when they were a child, including myself. It is therefore not surprising to still see people so eager to maintain the character as he is, both to maintain their childhood memories and because they wish for the children of today to have such fond memories of the celebration as well. There are of course also the general feeling that people 'outside' are trying to change something of theirs and the often mistaken belief that those 'outside' criticisms come with the implication that anyone enjoying the holiday in its current form is himself a racist or at least has conscious negative racial associations with the character.

All that said, there is nothing wrong with changing the character. Clearly there are those that are offended by the character, after all, without that we wouldn't have the video in the OP to start with, nor would it be a subject of discussion every year within the Netherlands itself. Now, you might think that the amount of people in the Netherlands who object to the character is relatively slim, and it might be, we have no way of knowing one way or the other. Regardless, does that make it right to ignore their concerns? Especially when you look at the other side of things.

None of the reasons children enjoy Zwarte Pieten so much these days; his kind character, his giving out presents and candy, his antics or any number of other things require the character to look as he does right now. Why couldn't he look different? Why couldn't the festival change with the times again? If it can't, why not now? Sinterklaas has changed at many points in history, in subtle or more overt ways. People arguing tradition should probably argue that the festival be celebrated in its original form, in which case we wouldn't be dealing with a blackface character at all.

The point I was trying to made was that there are loads of 'minorities' (be it in the political/religious/ethnical sense) everywehere with views and beliefs at odds with the general consensus that aren't getting catered to. Tyranny of the majority is part of a democracy.

An essential part of a civilized Western democracy is that the interests of minorities, of any sort, are not ignored by the majority.

 

[Xeke]

Why can't he have black splotches like a person who has been through a chimney? Why does he still need the red lips and hair? No one has addressed this at all. Once again, changing the racist origin and keeping the racist imagery seems really silly. Most have acknowledged that how the character looks is a direct result of racial caricature. Tradition is a bullshit argument, really.

 

[Kiraly]

Positive or negative agenda? Please, explain to me how you feel about his opinions.

Whose opinions? From the author (which is a she) or the guy? The guy is free to say what he believes in, I don't particularly care about it nor do I think he will find the movement to carry his believes further. At least not for now.

Why can't he have black splotches like a person who has been through a chimney? Why does he still need the red lips and hair? No one has addressed this at all. Once again, changing the racist origin and keeping the racist imagery seems really silly. Most have acknowledged that how the character looks is a direct result of racial caricature. Tradition is a bullshit argument, really.

He can, but he won't:

Give a solution that keeps into account these assumptions. In case you feel limited by not knowing the folklore: Propose a way in which to explain that Santa Claus is an African-American guy next year.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

But it kind of puts to rest the argument that Zwarte Piet is not a black person, he is simply Zwarte Piet. Apparently the kids aren't reading that memo and are calling black people "Zwarte Piet."

It's the nature of children. I hate that I'm not at my PC, as I could have found some of my favorite very long, very interesting articles about how small children see and interpret color on their own, without any help from adults or parents. Children see color. They will draw associations based on what they see.

How not talking about color at those extremely early ages does more harm than good because kids are seeing color and differences and drawing their own conclusions with or without adult help.

 

[oneils]

Whose opinions? From the author (which is a she) or the guy? The guy is free to say what he believes in, I don't particularly care about it nor do I think he will find the movement to carry his believes further. At least not for now.



He can, but he won't:

That's kind of funny. I've seen plenty of black Santa Claus' and no one was confused.

 

[Zabka]

The point I was trying to made was that there are loads of 'minorities' (be it in the political/religious/ethnical sense) everywehere with views and beliefs at odds with the general consensus that aren't getting catered to. Tyranny of the majority is part of a democracy.

"Tyranny of the majority" is a downside to democracy. There are a lots of protections in modern countries against that.

ETA: America has black Santas too. Kids just want the beard and the toys.

 

[Big Baybee]

He can, but he won't:

Well, I'm black, so I grew up with both a black and white Santa Claus in my life. Not a single fuck was given lol.

 

[Kreed]

http://www.thedailyherald.com/supplements/weekender/23102-quinsy-gario-on-zwarte-piet.html

Nice quote from the article. The whole article is a good read, but that quote really highlighted an issue many might not see here.

Exactly and it's like someone before this post said. That's just like a child in the US calling a fat white guy with a white beard Santa...

Not a very good comparison. For one, Zwarte Pieten is a helper/servant character for the local Santa character in the holiday. For most black people, there is a strong issue with being confused with a character who is a helper/servant/lower classed vs the character in charge.

Also, in the case of the fat white guy, if he got annoyed by all the kids calling him Santa on the street, all he would have to do is cut his beard. With black people who may be annoyed by being called Zwarte Pieten, this isn't an option when the main characteristics of the Zwarte Pieten are the main ethnic traits of the entire group.

 

[Rei_Toei]

You sound a bit upset?

I'd link you a few more but I'm on my phone sitting at a conference watching a surgery. You can always research the effects and awareness of color on children. There are some fantastic articles and research papers on the subjects.

Not that I expect you to, but I'd be doing a disservice to you as an intelligent young man to not mention that.

I may link an article or two when I get home if I feel up to finding them. Otherwise, good luck on your researching. Or enjoy the sand dune your head is in.

Not upset much. Just pointing out that one article doesn't prove everything. Sure you can dig up some more articles. And then I could dig up some that counter your articles. And we could gi back-and-forth a bit, accuse each other of selective reading, anecdotal evidence, the works.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

ETA: America has black Santas too. Kids just want the beard and the toys.

Correct answer. Kids--unlike adults, it seems--are hella flexible with this kind of stuff.

If Zwarte changed, the only people crying would be adults. Ironic.