Always-honest
Banned
The good news is that they actually don't have any racist thoughts about it. But yeah...
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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
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Ruud_Luiten
Member
They do, or are you just looking from one side?
I can easy make a picture of two people and make it look like racism based on the picture alone (people will freak). Except the true whole story tells a different story....
Your information is far from complete my friend.
Actually I think this is a better starting point.
Going off of the post you made earlier, and the post I made when I first came into this thread, I really don't think there's a reason for the two of us to be arguing?
Ok look, do you remember this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap68c_Gf6ZE&hd=1
The video in the OP? This isn't made by people from a different country/nation of origin. These people are making claims about the character Zwarte Pieten and we are discussing their issues and others that have been expressed in articles like the one Zabka posted:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44445163&postcount=309
Obviously this is a problem that goes beyond "Us history" like many of you keep trying to pigeon hole the opinions of the many "Anti Zwarte Pieten" posters into. Personally I'm not even trying to go that far into it. My original question and the question I responded to you with, was over the image that both Ruud_Luiten and Kiraly posted of multi colored Zwarte Pietens that "The Dutch were furious over".
Why is this a problem? IMO, this solves the issue of the people in the OP, the articles, and would silence most of the complaints over this holiday and the character. Don't tell me I wouldn't understand, explain to me how changing Zwarte Pieten's skin color from brown/black to purple would ruin his character for children? That's why we are all in this topic, to discuss questions like these.
Dr.Guru of Peru
played the long game
I never said anything to suggest either. The point is that dutch folk lore's only black character is an eager to please slave.
freenudemacusers
Member
sure, we can judge culture through a contextual lens. This sadly does nothing to redeem the zwarte piet character.
Do they line chimneys in the Netherlands with Brillo pads and covergirl lipstick or not
Americans just seem to have a knee-jerk reaction when they see Zwarte Piet. Because it seems they can't distinguish their cultural beliefs and reality from others.. If it looks like blackface that American know, it is the blackface that Americans know.
Its crazy that you think this actually makes sense.
"Sure before he was racist, but the modern version isnt because we said so. We havent bothered to change anything about his appearance but why should that matter?!?!?"
Ruud_Luiten
Member
changing tradition isn't fun. What if we make Santa black next year? It would be fair!Actually I think this is a better starting point.
Going off of the post you made earlier, and the post I made when I first came into this thread, I really don't think there's a reason for the two of us to be arguing?
Ok look, do you remember this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap68c_Gf6ZE&hd=1
The video in the OP? This isn't made by people from a different country/nation of origin. These people are making claims about the character Zwarte Pieten and we are discussing their issues and others that have been expressed in articles like the one Zabka posted:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44445163&postcount=309
Obviously this is a problem that goes beyond "Us history" like many of you keep trying to pigeon hole the opinions of the many "Anti Zwarte Pieten" posters into. Personally I'm not even trying to go that far into it. My original question and the question I responded to you with, was over the image that both Ruud_Luiten and Kiraly posted of multi colored Zwarte Pietens that "The Dutch were furious over".
Why is this a problem? IMO, this solves the issue of the people in the OP, the articles, and would silence most of the complaints over this holiday and the character. Don't tell me I wouldn't understand, explain to me how changing Zwarte Pieten's skin color from brown/black to purple would ruin his character for children? That's why we are all in this topic, to discuss questions like these.
Since you've agreed on this, then you would also agree that Zwerte Pete is still an outwardly racist caricature based on its historical context.
Always-honest
Banned
Yep, or James Bond. Who cares?
freenudemacusers
Member
I can't wait to be really upset about it!
Well that's just a clip. I can pull up a clip of Westboro Baptist Church and claim that those are American beliefs... I don't because I know better.
The article makes a crucial mistake by claiming/implying that Zwarte Piet is a bad character.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
We should discuss this....
Tha Robbertster
Member
I don't know a single kid who sees zwarte piet as a slave. If you want to see him as one, it is possible but the majority of the Dutch don't. Plus you won't see many black people in the Dutch folklore because black people (or any non-European people for that matter) haven't been part of the Dutch society for a very long time.
Devolution
Member
I wouldn't mind some representations of Santa as black. Doesn't change who Santa is.
I'm not opposed to this either, since it would silence the cries of Zwarte Pieten being "slaves/servants" to a white character. But I think there would be an even bigger backlash in doing that vs just making Zwarte Pieten dark purple or greyish blue.
ShinHayase
Member
So wait, when the color of the skin changes, all is well? Afro and lips can suddenly stay?
It truly shows how shallow your thoughts are.
It truly shows how shallow your thoughts are.
Well, it's the context. Don't forget America has a long history of slavery, racial prejudice, and social issues surrounding race. It's the racial connotations of that image and not the image itself.
Objectively speaking of course, black people obviously have a black face. If a white person for whatever reason wants to dress up as a black person, well blacking your face would probably make you look more authentic. It is not necessarily racist in itself. The negative connotations associated with it are only relevant within the context of the society in which it takes place.
This subject has reminded me of a youtube video I watched a couple years ago. It certainly can be viewed as offensive and racially insensitive, but for some reason, you can't help but laugh at it. A politician decided to protest the 'national hoodie day' in New Zealand by dressing up in a KKK outfit. Listening to what the guy had to say though, it becomes clear that he probably wasn't a racist, the purpose of him doing it had nothing to do with race really. What it really amounted to though was a serious misjudgment of epic proportions (lol). What makes it funny is seeing him just digging a deeper and deeper hole for himself. You can kind of see that he knows he made a mistake, but instead of admitting his mistake he tries unsuccessfully to defend his position. At the end of the video he takes off his hood, and you just think, "WTF man!".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWy4OXYTTdM
freenudemacusers
Member
Who are you talking to?
It isn't because we say so, it is because we do so, we experience it so, because its meaning is so.
Just like language. If people give different meaning to a word, it gets that meaning. That generally isn't a process that happens over nights or by mass decision, it just happens over time.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
The Dutch just want to keep it the same because we don't see racism. People who generalise and have no idea about Sinterklaas do... Hence the six pages.
I find it quite racist to think all darker people look like zwarte Piet. It's the basis of this discussion; which is quite strange.
I find it quite racist to think all darker people look like zwarte Piet. It's the basis of this discussion; which is quite strange.
Always-honest
Banned
No it's not. Nobody thinks all black people look like this. People think it's offensive when black people are depicted like this. Let alone when they are the slave of one white man.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
It's a kids party and kids don't care.
Grown ups see a tradition in which characters look like sint and piet. It's like what I said, is chridtmass the same if santa is black or putple?
We shouldn't care, it's about the spirit of christmass (right)yet it is strange if we would change this icon, right?
Ruud_Luiten
Member
So you do think they look the same?!
Slave??!! Hahaha....
Always-honest
Banned
But the image is completely different from the real festivities where all the piets are black. None of them are red, blue or green. Aain, you are right that kids don't care. But don't use this image to prove it's allright that all Pieten are black.
Yeah but they only make that connection because of their own cultural background. Here it always was much less of an issue and people don't regard Zwarte Piet as either a black man or the slave of a white man.
They can't seem to understand that and keep looking at it through their own eyes.
freenudemacusers
Member
lol the definition of trying too hard
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
You won't but if you propose Santa to be green or purple there will be a ton of backlash. And you know it.
As for the topic at hand, every culture has its own demons and we don't need nor want to have American demons or taboos to be imported, thanks.
Blackface was not a thing over here like it was over there. Brits don't consider cunt the single most offensive word and use it regularly. Unless you are a cop or a hunter you shouldn't have a gun. And so and so.
freenudemacusers
Member
Would I be right to defend the anger over a black Santa?
This is the second time I've seen this comparison of the people in the OP's video and the Westboro Baptist Church, who most of us on GAF would agree represent one of the most vile hate groups/scam artist in the United States. I don't know if you're doing this on purpose, but by comparing these protesters (who I believe have been peaceful, correct me if I'm wrong?) to a hate group like Westboro, it's not making you look good in terms of being accepting of different view points. Because other than complain that Zwarte Pieten may be offensive, what have the protesters done to put themselves on the same playing field as the people from Westboro Baptist Church?
As for the article, I've read/seen so many different "origin stories" for Zwarte Pieten over the past couple of Zwarte Piet threads I'm starting to think he could actually be a DC/Marvel character. But as others have said before, the history of the character has changed for the better and I think most of us agree with that despite what the article says. Now there's just the question of the look of Zwarte Pieten and if it's really necessary for that to remain unchanged.
Always-honest
Banned
That goes for the dutch too. We never gave it a second thought, because we grew up with it as a kid. We don't see the harm in it. We see the Pieten as happy helpers. True. but hat doesn't mean it isn't racist in the fundaments.
Now you're just trolling.
Oh no you are right it isn't a 1:1 comparison. My point was the voice of a small minority doesn't represent the voice of a larger group. And the group in the video are a small minority, I don't have any figures but, I think most Dutch people in here would agree that it's small and the group not agreeing with them is much much larger.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
Nope, try to think different and stop living in the past.
The past cannot be changed, but it is not the perception of the way Dutch currently think.
Try imagining that and also try imagining the discussion if we change Santa into a purple person.
Yeah you are right. It is racist in its roots. But does that really matter when that entire meaning has changed? Tough luck for people who can't distinguish their own cultural connotations from other peoples culture, projecting theirs onto others, and judging them through their culture.
Devolution
Member
This Santa comparison makes no fucking sense what so ever. Santa doesn't have blackface roots.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
No, people should learn from other cultures before judging them / generalise them. Slaves is not the word used for Pieten anno 2012.
Always-honest
Banned
Tradition is living in the past.
freenudemacusers
Member
You're telling the guy that thinks its in poor taste to have a blackface character* to stop living in the past. Hm.
*still waiting for a diagram of the Brillo pad and lipstick locations that must be common feature in Dutch chimney design.
And wtf does Santa claus have to do with anything? If santa rolled around in a dirty wifebeater while chugging tequila and singing la cucaracha this weird comparison might have some merit.
Wow, so much of the Zwarte Piet defending on here is almost word-for-word the rhetoric Golliwogg defenders used when they were phased out of the UK.
Sorry if you're so attached to your childhood memories that you cannot imagine a world without Zwarte looking as it currently does, but tough shit, tolerance and compassion for others sometimes means sacrifices - the same way Hindu's try to avoid using the swastika in the western world.
Sorry if you're so attached to your childhood memories that you cannot imagine a world without Zwarte looking as it currently does, but tough shit, tolerance and compassion for others sometimes means sacrifices - the same way Hindu's try to avoid using the swastika in the western world.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
Sinterklaas is all changed and the roots aren't even known by the Dutch anno 2012. From the outside the same, from the inside totally different. It's not about the looks. They are kept the same for recognition.
Santa is based in Sinterklaas. He just turned his helpers into elfes. Which is also quite rude to short people or the earshape-challenged..
Also the OP is wrong, "many celebrities" turns out to be quotes from one photo model and one singer.
Those reindeer look awfully brown!
freenudemacusers
Member
If the roots have been retconned why not the appearance? Seriously why is this so hard to answer.
Ruud_Luiten
Member
So, let's make our next discussion about the skin color of santa. Traditions are old and a thing from the past right?
Except this is other people judging stuff we do here.
Also as I skimmed through that Wiki article, Golliwogg seemed to be a racial slur while Zwarte Pieten haven't got anything to do (in terms of meaning and how they are experienced)
freenudemacusers
Member
I thought this was soot, not skin
not according to the dutch >_>
Why should we change something that isn't experienced as racist? It is a small minority who thinks they should be changed. And only that small minority and people from other cultures projecting their own culture think its racist...
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