badcrumble
Member
Shouldn't the resulting economy of scale help make high-performing PCs cheaper and therefore MORE relevant?
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SemiA: Intel to move to stop selling processors separately, only proc+mobo combos
- Thread starter markot
- Start date
I remember when AMD was kings, cheap and really good procs.
This was before the intel core 2 duo was launched though
things get cheaper only when there is competition.
badcrumble
Member
Um, that really isn't true and is based on drastically simplified Econ 101 thought.
If they're still around.
Technosteve
Banned
Well we still have company of heroes 2 to look forward to.....
Non-event.
They found a bigger market in handhelds and portables. So they're focusing on that instead.
Doesn't mean the desktop market is going to disappear.
If anything it'll lead to possibly an AMD revival(far fetched as it is), or maybe even another a chip maker.
I heard the same arguments when consoles came out. Better market, hop on the bandwagon, etc. End of the day PC market for games is still profitable. PC market for hardware will also still be profitable.
Barring monopoly powers preventing it, everything will work out.
They found a bigger market in handhelds and portables. So they're focusing on that instead.
Doesn't mean the desktop market is going to disappear.
If anything it'll lead to possibly an AMD revival(far fetched as it is), or maybe even another a chip maker.
I heard the same arguments when consoles came out. Better market, hop on the bandwagon, etc. End of the day PC market for games is still profitable. PC market for hardware will also still be profitable.
Barring monopoly powers preventing it, everything will work out.
They were screwed. And the OEM's that enabled it (free advertising from Intel) were fools for allowing it. But to think AMD wouldn't be doing the same thing Intel is now forced to is naive. All that money that Intel collected from that period doesn't mean a hill of beans now. Another good example is in console land and Nintendo. They were making billions. Past glory doesn't mean a whole lot if the market suddenly shifts under your feet.
And for anyone arguing they'll be no competition: Obsolesce is a fine motivator for competitive pricing. Plus we have no idea what the competition will be like in three years. There very well could be CPU competition from surprising places.
GayForMaster
Banned
I've always stuck by AMD master race. Fuck peasant i7 sandy and ivy bridge.
Not necessarily ... but there is competition for consumer-level PC's/laptops ... it's tablets. That's the whole point of this move.
Raising the prices wouldn't make any sense.
I don't see how you could hold this opinion. Monopolies rarely produce either of these things willfully.
AMD is in all the new consoles..... Their gaming relevance is set.
that dude must have a jump to conclusions mat. Most people need a new motherboard when they get around to upgrading anyway. If you are able to keep the same motherboard its usually not much of an improvement over the last one. The only problem i see here is that if your motherboard dies, it will be more expensive to replace since its tied to the cpu. But calling this the death of the desktop? lol no.
Because it's not 2002 anymore. What is ridiculous pricing going to do? It's going to drive everyone to devices with ARM cpus in it. How is that even remotely in Intel's interest? This is about keeping the desktop a viable platform. That's not happening with stupid pricing. AMD is no longer the competition they have to be concerned with.
Who said it's willfully?
I skimmed the last few pages and I didn't really see any of the good stuff posted, so let me break this down for you guys as one of the most die hard PC enthusiasts on this forum.
1) Intel is moving the consumer grade Broadwell to BGA. What this means is that the chip is soldered directly to the socket.
2) The enthusaist grade will still be VGA. This is the equivalent of socket 2011. That means enthusiasts still get to be enthusiasts. 1155's sister socket is 2011. 1155 = Consumer, 2011 = Enthusiast. 1155 = Sandy/Ivy, 2011 = Sandy-E/Ivy-E. The E is for enthusiast. Enthusiast.
Why this shouldn't matter to folks who like to build their own PC's is that the concept of upgrading one's CPU while retaining the same socket has been dead since Nehalem (socket 1366). LGA 775 was the last socket in which you could make truly meaningful upgrades to the CPU while retaining the motherboard.
Right now, we are faced with a total mess in the 1155/SB/IVB world. Let me break this down for you by chipset.
H61 - Basic 1155 socket that allows no control of multiplier or voltage of the CPU. PCI-E 2.0, ad-hoc USB 3.0
P67 - Basic 1155 with no onboard graphics.
Z68 - Combination of H61 and P67 in that it has both onboard graphics and overclock support. Still ad-hoc USB 3.0, PCI-E 2.0
H7x - Native USB 3.0 and PCI-E 3.0 support, no overclocking support.
Z77 - Same as H7x, but overclocking support.
Now, lets say you go to buy an IVB processor, an i5 3570 for example. If you put this in a P67/Z68/H61 board, you likely won't even get PCI-E 3.0. If you buy a Z7x, you've likely wasted money.
How about a 2500K? Buy that and stick in a Z77 board yeah? No PCI-E 3.0 because it's controlled by the processor. You'll be able to overclock though. Not if you put it in a Hxx board though, watch out for that.
Switching to BGA fixes this ridiculousness, and has no downsides other than needing to RMA a whole motherboard if the proc/mobo goes funny. That doesn't really matter either, because it's not like you have a working PC when you are RMA'ing one of those parts. It also makes the whole process easier.
You get to go to newegg, pick out the processor/motherboard combo you want, and call it good. This is awesome for helping people navigate the maze that is PC building. We have to have an entire thread with probably the most informative OP loaded with hours upon hours upon hours of content in order to make sense of it all. How is that a solid long term plan for selling hardware?
"But I want to upgrade to different low bugdet processors if I want to!" If someone has upgraded from a 2500K to a 3570K/3770K for any other reason than a real itch to upgrade, and they are someone who has thrown away their money. You buy a processor, motherboard, and RAM, and then you upgrade it all when it comes time to do so. This is how it has been for years.
Ultimately, there's too much industry riding on the fact that enthusaists get to do what they do. Intel gets tons of sales from it, they're not going to kill it off. Stop being drama queens.
1) Intel is moving the consumer grade Broadwell to BGA. What this means is that the chip is soldered directly to the socket.
2) The enthusaist grade will still be VGA. This is the equivalent of socket 2011. That means enthusiasts still get to be enthusiasts. 1155's sister socket is 2011. 1155 = Consumer, 2011 = Enthusiast. 1155 = Sandy/Ivy, 2011 = Sandy-E/Ivy-E. The E is for enthusiast. Enthusiast.
felt like it wasn't said enough in this paragraph
Why this shouldn't matter to folks who like to build their own PC's is that the concept of upgrading one's CPU while retaining the same socket has been dead since Nehalem (socket 1366). LGA 775 was the last socket in which you could make truly meaningful upgrades to the CPU while retaining the motherboard.
Right now, we are faced with a total mess in the 1155/SB/IVB world. Let me break this down for you by chipset.
H61 - Basic 1155 socket that allows no control of multiplier or voltage of the CPU. PCI-E 2.0, ad-hoc USB 3.0
P67 - Basic 1155 with no onboard graphics.
Z68 - Combination of H61 and P67 in that it has both onboard graphics and overclock support. Still ad-hoc USB 3.0, PCI-E 2.0
H7x - Native USB 3.0 and PCI-E 3.0 support, no overclocking support.
Z77 - Same as H7x, but overclocking support.
Now, lets say you go to buy an IVB processor, an i5 3570 for example. If you put this in a P67/Z68/H61 board, you likely won't even get PCI-E 3.0. If you buy a Z7x, you've likely wasted money.
How about a 2500K? Buy that and stick in a Z77 board yeah? No PCI-E 3.0 because it's controlled by the processor. You'll be able to overclock though. Not if you put it in a Hxx board though, watch out for that.
Switching to BGA fixes this ridiculousness, and has no downsides other than needing to RMA a whole motherboard if the proc/mobo goes funny. That doesn't really matter either, because it's not like you have a working PC when you are RMA'ing one of those parts. It also makes the whole process easier.
You get to go to newegg, pick out the processor/motherboard combo you want, and call it good. This is awesome for helping people navigate the maze that is PC building. We have to have an entire thread with probably the most informative OP loaded with hours upon hours upon hours of content in order to make sense of it all. How is that a solid long term plan for selling hardware?
"But I want to upgrade to different low bugdet processors if I want to!" If someone has upgraded from a 2500K to a 3570K/3770K for any other reason than a real itch to upgrade, and they are someone who has thrown away their money. You buy a processor, motherboard, and RAM, and then you upgrade it all when it comes time to do so. This is how it has been for years.
Ultimately, there's too much industry riding on the fact that enthusaists get to do what they do. Intel gets tons of sales from it, they're not going to kill it off. Stop being drama queens.
Teknopathetic
Member
I'd almost be for this if only because currently installing CPUs in current intel motherboards is the most nerve wracking, awful experience ever.
criiiiiiick "fffff--Did I just fuck my processor?"
criiiiiiick "fffff--Did I just fuck my processor?"
I always read this as "fuck social-centric devices, my PC tower is all the friendship I need."
Perhaps from their awful financials, technical decline and rumours pointing to a consolidation around the Jaguar core. Lol guys, have fun with your 15W CPUs, at least it might have a socket.
Edit: Double post oops.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
If true, it's too early to divine all the ramifications of this.
If it ruins competition even more, that would probably be a bad thing.
It might make PC building easier to do, which is a good thing, but there could be unintended consequences to it all. As for me, I usually upgrade the whole shebang in one go anyway.
If it ruins competition even more, that would probably be a bad thing.
It might make PC building easier to do, which is a good thing, but there could be unintended consequences to it all. As for me, I usually upgrade the whole shebang in one go anyway.
I've done it with the current system hundreds of times. Each time I still pray that I didn't break it.
Big-ass Ramp
hella bullets that's true
This is why we need AMD. Intel are dicks.
AMD is also bleeding money left and right, and people still keep suggesting going with the more expensive competition while demanding that AMD "finally catches up". The chance to catch up financially was during the time their technology was dominating Intel, but the anti-competitive landscape back then prevented exactly that, and customers keep digging AMD's grave till this day.
Intel moving to Atom-style CPU-mobo combos only would be a nice move to allow AMD using the little breathing space they have left in the dying stationary PC market.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I imagine we'd see a situation similar to what Nvidia are doing where they release a reference design and allow OEMs to license it, adding small variations in the process.
Question for more knowledgeable readers:
Could this potentially have a positive benefit on performance in the long run?
With processes only continuing to shrink for a few more years, I'd imagine having a more sophisticated and better optimised interface between CPU and system bus to be good way to address bottlenecks and 'keep up with Moore's Law' ,so to speak, while the industry transitions to new substrates.
so what you're saying is enthusiasts who enjoy building custom computers want their next-gen 2500k on an intel motherboard? That seems like all kinds of wrong.
Most people I know buy smartphones, tablets and laptops. Hardly anyone builds a desktop, not even the pc gamers.
Pretty sure many know who he is. The facts seem to be correct. The fact he butchered and sensationalized the meaning is keeping with his MO. Still, it's a jar and difficult to think rationally when first hearing it. But I agree this is probably the best thing that could have happened (if you care about Intel cleaning things up and keeping the platform viable in the future).
Krauser Kat
Member
Thanks for being a douche to your fellow pc gamer. I bought my 2500k at the beginning of the gen and will ride this shit out as will a lot of us who bought and oc'd their CPUs until the upgrade include a mobo change as well. I do know what im buying.
Mr. Wonderful
Member
It's been known that Broadwell is moving toward System on a Chip for a long time. This isn't really shocking. We're already seeing portable electronics going this way/gone this way in the case of non-upgradable Macbooks/tablets and smartphones. With Haswell rumored to contain GPUs with up to 128MB VRAM per chip, and Broadwell providing a jump in performance after that, most people won't need anymore. And guess what? Upgradable RAM is next.
I think we're just about to see how big the do it yourself PC market really is.
I think we're just about to see how big the do it yourself PC market really is.
Krauser Kat
Member
Hi Five, you get a re quote. Saying people that have i2500k ocs to 5ghz not enthusiast might hurt their pride a little bit.
Moral Panic
Member
What if I don't want PCI-E 3.0? Why do I have to pay for it because Intel wants to be greedy? The things you describe as ridiculousness is the BEST part about PC building. Choosing what parts, brands and features you want.
Right now, if I want to stick a £300 CPU in a £50 mobo I can with no problem. Do you really believe this will be the case with BGA? You're kidding yourself if you think any aspect of competitive pricing will remain when Intel can charge whatever the hell they want, and will undoubtedly tie expensive motherboards with expensive CPUs.
Hence, true gamers can safely ignore AMD.
Great post.
TouchMyBox
Member
So long as there is still the separate Enthusiast option with a socket and they don't slack on upgrading the Enthusiast line like they have been lately then it's not the end of the world.
I still kinda want to give my money to AMD though. (please come back, pentium 4-era AMD)
I still kinda want to give my money to AMD though. (please come back, pentium 4-era AMD)
And Nvidia is putting an ARM cpu in their next GPU architecture. So I'm sure their extended roadmap has all-in-one solutions for Windows too.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I'm sure it won't kill the platform... But won't it kill loads of companies that rely on that sort of thing? I guess most also make GPUs and what not... But Intel probably will go after providing complete systems if this works out... Which it will... Closing that area off too. Even if not though this is probably a considerable revenue stream for some like ASUS and what not...
Man, I really need a (cheap) rig upgrade but things are moving so fast... I don't think I can wait beyond my birthday though (past March) would that be a good time to get something (probably not all new and high end but discounted older stuff)...
Man, I really need a (cheap) rig upgrade but things are moving so fast... I don't think I can wait beyond my birthday though (past March) would that be a good time to get something (probably not all new and high end but discounted older stuff)...
Using a fringe argument of someone buying the top of the line consumer processor (assuming you're referring to 3770/2600 here) and plopping it in a crappy motherboard doesn't prove your point very well. It's like saying, 'But the great thing about the hardware market is that I'm free to make irrational decisions that are against my best interest!'
The RoG Matrix 7970 in my recording rig would beg to differ, because it's the most powerful single GPU video card.
Also, Vishera made some really nice improvements. AMD bet big on multithreaded performance, and lost. I blame the consoles, because the engines that power the games where the AMD processors fall short were designed for consoles and single/dual threaded processors.
Give it a few years for engines to catch up with PC tech, and AMD will be right back where they once were. Vishera competes great with processors $100 more than it in quad to n threaded applications.
*edit*
Also, I realized I said VGA instead of LGA above when talking about the enthusiast grade chipset. Please excuse my acronym dyslexia, posted right before going to bed
I think you mean mobo makers. But honestly, they've had mad consolidation anyways. It's not like yesterday when you had 15 different companies. There's only a couple right now, and left to the current situation, I'm sure we'd be down to two non-Intel brands quickly anyways.
We don't need to imagine what the BGA market looks like. It already exists with ATOM and E series APUs.
The only bottleneck we are facing right now is through single threaded and dual threaded performance. Any game that is optimized well for modern CPUs places the bottleneck entirely on the GPU. That could also mean that devs get creative with the loads they are placing on the CPU, meaning some huge transition in what we think of in terms of what games are made to do. Look at these crazy BF3 numbers:
(courtesy of TechReport, best tech site out there)
iirc, both of these tests were run with a 7970 as the standard videocard to keep variables consistent.
That's a great summation. Thanks for that. You're 100% right. It barely matters as long as overclocking is still an option. I have NEVER in 15 years of PC building, bought a CPU replacement without a new mobo. Usually the CPU upgrade is negligible without changing sockets and not worth the money.