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[Air Zombie Meat]

If you ever banned guns in the US, everybody would be a black marketeer... Guns are so prevelant, I know at least 30 or 40 people in my personal circle of friends/family who own multiple guns, and if there was a ban, I could easily go and buy or borrow one from them under the table.

That would be the case for pretty much anybody in america. There are so many guns out there the genie is already out of the bottle. We are an armed populace. Solutions to gun violence that involve trying to remove guns from the citizenry are dead in the water. You have to change the constitution to do that which is nearly impossible to do, or (wrongly) alter your interpretation of the constitution. The people who already own guns, a huge percentage of the population simply will not stand for it.

And besides, Americans have had guns forever, but this sort of psycho spree gun violence is basically a new thing. It is a cultural thing, not a gun thing. Guns obviously make it easier, and maybe it wouldn't happen if there weren't guns, but guns aren't causing it to happen. In america because of the current gun environment it is more practical to do something about the systemic cultural problem leading to this spree violence, or boost security measures, or something like that than it is to try taking guns away.

Making it a little harder to get guns (something like a psychological test, maybe) is a little more possible, but it would not stop a determined person from getting his hands on a gun. Guns are everywhere in america. You don't even have to find a black marketeer, just ask a friend or relative.

Yeah thats true. I did actually think of that soon after posting. Such a difficult issue at this point. It's just hard to stomach when 99% of the time it turns out that some psycho literally just walked into a shop and handed over money to get the tools needed.

 

[Messypandas]

People die from cancer. We should make cancer illegal

 

[TimeEffect]

How is the Canadian media reacting to this?

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Why were school shootings completely eliminated in Britain and Japan, then?

No gun culture, no prior access to guns, island nations with no lawless countries on the border to smuggle guns from. Take your pick.

 

[kaskade]

This reminds me of a Facebook Post I saw where people were upset over Buffalo Wild Wings (a sports bar) banning guns. You know, because beer and sports are two peaceful activities.

That's the one place I kind of don't agree with. Unless the person carrying is security or something. A place where mainly alcohol is consumed really shouldn't allow guns.

 

[Reuenthal]

Yes long term harsher regulation and general antipathy of the population to gun possession would have lead to less deaths in the US.

Of course now you have a huge number of guns out there. Also any policy needs complicity from the population to work. That is the problem with drugs and drug laws as well.

Cultures don't change easily because some want to, so I doubt there is a no gun future for the US. As for 'weak' regulation that might happen, I doubt it will have much positive effects at preventing guns reaching criminals or crazy people but putting some psychological checks at a matter of principle to make it harder and illegal for certain people to own guns won't be a bad idea.

 

[IHaveCandy]

It's asinine as fuck. People can't shoot off hundreds of knives, you sure can with guns and bullets though. Knife argument is so incredibly fucking stupid and disingenuous.

Yes or no, are you not worried about what would happen if a man waked into an elementary school with a 15" knife with the intention to kill as many people as possible? Does it worry you how easily this could be accomplished?

 

[truly101]

I'm at the point now where I want them all melted for scrap. Want to protect your house from a burglar? Learn Kung Fu.

 

[Samyy]

How is the Canadian media reacting to this?

They are not going after American gun laws yet, just calling it a tragedy etc.

 

[Deified Data]

Agreed, let us never ever discuss this when it's relevant and then quickly forget it until the next massacre a month or two from now.

I believe Slayven meant that we should be talking about it all the time, and not only when a tragedy like this occurs.

 

[Haribo]

UK here. I am generally quite a big fan of America but for fucks sake, sort out your gun laws.

 

[Winterblink]

How is the Canadian media reacting to this?

Shock, disgust, feeling horrible for the kids and families of those involved. Were you expecting something different?

 

[7Th]

No gun culture, no prior access to guns, island nations with no lawless countries on the border to smuggle guns from. Take your pick.

Guns in Mexico come from America, it's not the other way around.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I dunno, but when you know the place you are going to target is by law a "gun free zone" it makes your murderous plans easier to pull off.

Even if strict gun control would prevent murder in these situations, you have to admit lax gun lasws does some good by preventing armed home invasions, for example. I have never touched a gun in my life and never plan to but wish to reserve the right in the case I feel my safety is in danger. I also LOVE the fact that any potential home robber has no idea whether it is me or my neighbor who is the gun owner.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Guns in Mexico come from America, it's not the other way around.

No shit, really? holy fuck.

 

[ciridesu]

Copied from other thread.

Mass shootings are not as rare in other countries as you make it seem. It hardly depends on gun laws either.

The US has a population of what, 300+ million? Shootings and violence are to be expected to a certain extent. Even Finland with a population of 5 million has had quite a few mass murder shootings this millenia, despite strict gun laws.

If someone is fucked up in the head, they'll find a way. They always do.

edit:

You also have to take into account that similar incidents are not as widely presented in the news in whatever country you live in. Thus you get a flawed view of the reality.

 

[EviLore]

What is your definition of mentally ill, and what test do you propose that will conclusively and without error accurately diagnose such mental illness?

Now that you have identified a guaranteed measuring device that will predict a person's behavior with unfailing accuracy, what is your proposal to legislate against, and protect the population from potential future behavior?

I'm not asking this to be insulting, but you seem to be stamping your feet and demanding a solution to a very very complex question.

We have an established medical definition of mental illness, and we can easily categorize forms that put gun owners at risk for violent crime involving their firearms. Psych evals are an established practice in countries with significant gun ownership and far lower gun violence than the United States, and we already have brain checking for government positions and military applications. Firearm ownership may be a right in the United States, but it's a conditional right already: felons, may-issue CCWs, etc.

Fear of a dystopian outcome with regards to conditional gun ownership is not reality-based.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

As much as I am against guns, I wish we would discuss the role that mental health (and the lack of genuine mental healthcare) plays more than the role the tools play.

We put too much focus on correlated factors, without looking at causal issues.

This.

About 50 years ago, we deregulated mental health care. We're dealing with this bullshit all the time now. Violence, homelessness, etc. are all amplified and more scary for everyone because Republicans did their usual fingers-in-ears lalalala routine about serious problems.

I knew a person who walked out of a mental hospital, went to a pawn shop, and was able to buy a gun and kill himself. It's ridiculous to even type out that this could happen.

 

[Dude Abides]

So the fact that there have been failed knife attacks make them not seriously lethal?

I'm not saying a knife of any kind would certainly still lead to the same amount of death. I'm saying the killer could easily create the same kind of tragedy with a large knife. Is a gun more lethal and tactically efficient than a knife? Yes. But A LOT of people are responding with "A knife? Really? You think a knife can really cause something like this?" and it's absurd. I really think a lot of people here don't understand how lethal a large knife can be. And there are even some advantages with a knife. I tend to carry a pocket knife with me for both utility and protection. It's rather unnerving to think how easy it would be for me to silently shank people in a bustling mall without anybody knowing for some time. Knives are dangerous. Don't talk about them like they are some tool that will at worst put you in the hospital.

Nobody is doing that.

Find another straw man to take down with your bad ass knife.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Remind me to patent knife spray.

You could call it "Axe"

 

[volturnus]

What, and have more poeple die? Stupid idea.

More people die? It seems he had either a hunting rifle or a pistol, it'd only take a single shot from a teacher/parent to stop him.

Simple: less guns means less need for self-defense against guns. I'll be willing to bet good money that the guns from your Rio example came from the United States. If you think gun control is bad, then you're objectively wrong.

How would it mean less need? With gun control, criminals wouldn't need to worry about people defending themselves. Hell, I bet even this guy was sure that nobody would be armed.
Also, most guns in Brazil are illegal and come from Paraguay through drug traffckers, while common citizens sit duck and police officers are killed daily. São Paulo had more than 100 police officers murdered in this year alone.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Yes or no, are you not worried about what would happen if a man waked into an elementary school with a 15" knife with the intention to kill as many people as possible? Does it worry you how easily this could be accomplished?

What the hell are you even trying to achieve?

Stop trying to deflect the issue

 

[RDreamer]

I think you're always making a mistake when you zero in so specifically on one incident and ask whether gun control would prevent it and put the onus on whether it would prevent that one incident. With policy you need to back things up a bit and ask whether it would prevent a statistically significant or even a statistically noticeable amount of incidences. When you get so specific there's a lot of "Well, he could have done this, then, or could have got that," that I think amounts to a load of nonsense because we don't have a clue what he could have or would have done if things were harder.

I do believe in our right to have a gun to defend ourselves, but I also think our current trajectory is completely and utterly unsustainable, and something needs to be done.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

No gun culture, no prior access to guns, island nations with no lawless countries on the border to smuggle guns from. Take your pick.

Actually we produce guns that are smuggled into Mexico. We're the lawless country in this instance.

 

[hym]

Why are people making this all or nothing? As if reducing the amount of murders and shootings isn't enough YOU HAVE TO END THEM ALL OR IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Binary world views is all an ignorant mind is capable of comprehending. Making these incidents impossible won't ever happen, the goal is reducing the frequency and that involves more than making gun availability more difficult and even when done effectively it probably will take a generation to have full effect.

Psychological tests to get a weapon license might help but I don't think it will catch the real monsters, if there is anything functioning psychopaths are skilled at, it's appearing normal.

 

[Devolution]

Yes or no, are you not worried about what would happen if a man waked into an elementary school with a 15" knife with the intention to kill as many people as possible? Does it worry you how easily this could be accomplished?

Nice strawman. A man with a knife could be subdued. A person with a gun can keep people at a distance and spray bullets. That's hundreds of rounds expelled in a manner of minutes. Explain to me what the fuck a knife has on that?

 

[IHaveCandy]

Nobody is doing that.

Find another straw man to take down with your bad ass knife.

That is what people are doing. We've got somebody seriously asking how long it takes to kill somebody with a knife.

 

[BigDes]

All is known is that it was a .223 rifle.

The above quote picture is a semi-auto rifle with a bunch of add-ons that are usually purchased separately. I doubt that is the rifle that was used.

This is also a .223, a basic hunting rifle.



In the other thread, someone posted that a guy in China stabbed and killed 33 children today.

The guns laws have very little to do with it, IMO. Craziness finds a way.

No one was killed in the China attack apparently, there were 23 injured, and two kids in intensive car.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Actually we produce guns that are smuggled into Mexico. We're the lawless country in this instance.

way to completely miss the point.
If guns were illegal in America it would be trivial to get them from Mexico

 

[Oppo]

Mass shootings are not as rare in other countries as you make it seem. It hardly depends on gun laws either.

The US has a population of what, 300+ million? Shootings and violence are to be expected to a certain extent. Even Finland with a population of 5 million has had quite a few mass murder shootings this millenia, despite strict gun laws.

If someone is fucked up in the head, they'll find a way. They always do.

So do nothing? I tire of this old argument. There's no point in making it easier for crazies to kill multitudes.

 

[LyleLanley]

Yes or no, are you not worried about what would happen if a man waked into an elementary school with a 15" knife with the intention to kill as many people as possible? Does it worry you how easily this could be accomplished?

What the hell are you even arguing about anymore?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

way to completely miss the point.

Way to not make a point because your facts were wrong?

 

[BattleMonkey]

With the amount of guns out there, likely not.

 

[Fantastical]

This actually happened in Belgium in 2008. Guy with a knife killed 3 and wounded 12 in a kindergarten, 2 kids and 1 adult died.

Wut? Around 27 deaths vs 3.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Way to not make a point because your facts were wrong?

the point was the difference between Japan/Britain and America re: making guns illegal and the effect it would have on gun violence. Not the current reality as it exists today. Guns in America are cheap and easy to get, it's stupid to argue that.

 

[Dude Abides]

That is what people are doing. We've got somebody seriously asking how long it takes to kill somebody with a knife.

Do you agree or disagree that a gun is capable of doing more damage to more people in a shorter period of time than a knife?

 

[CaptainMintMan]

No.

 

[Dresden]

You have a chance of stopping a man with a knife. Or there would be a struggle, at least. The time and effort it takes to kill with a knife is far greater than simply pulling a trigger, and the amount of effort expended also impedes impulsive killings or even accidental deaths.

way to completely miss the point.
If guns were illegal in America it would be trivial to get them from Mexico

But they wouldn't be available on the scale or quality that it is right now. We're the gun factory of the world.

Pointless since it's never happening.

 

[sans_pants]

this is literally the 3rd mass shooting in the country this year

and your proposed solution is to do nothing

anything to keep your little death toys I guess

what do you propose? do we round up the millions of guns already in america? make them illegal like marijuana?

i think purchasing guns should be harder to do, but there are still millions of guns out there already

 

[kaskade]

We have an established medical definition of mental illness, and we can easily categorize forms that put gun owners at risk for violent crime involving their firearms. Psych evals are an established practice in countries with significant gun ownership and far lower gun violence than the United States, and we already have brain checking for government positions and military applications. Firearm ownership may be a right in the United States, but it's a conditional right already: felons, may-issue CCWs, etc.

Fear of a dystopian outcome with regards to conditional gun ownership is not reality-based.

I agree with you here. I love guns and like to think of myself as pretty liberal. Are they too easy to get? Yes. I can literally go out right now and purchase a handgun and be out the door in a half hour with it. All that's required is a background check which just checks for prior charges.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Nice strawman. A man with a knife could be subdued. A person with a weapon can keep people at a distance and spray bullets. That's hundreds of rounds expelled in a manner of minutes. Explain to me what the fuck a knife has on that?

Yes or no. Does it concern you? Going by your comment, you seem to be okay with weapons in schools as long as the potential victim has a somewhat realistic chance of stopping the attacker. If we are going to make guns illegal because people can easily enter schools and create a massacres, are knives really a different subject because adults may be able to sacrificially subdue the attacker? How hard is it to conceal a knife, kill the teacher, lock the door, and kill a room of elementary kids with a knife?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

what do you propose? do we round up the millions of guns already in america? make them illegal like marijuana?

i think purchasing guns should be harder to do, but there are still millions of guns out there already

Well, that wraps it up for America, then. Can't fix it completely, so let's just not try.

 

[Krowley]

Why were school shootings completely eliminated in Britain and Japan, then?

Because I'm pretty sure they've always had strict gun laws, which would make it practical and feasible to outlaw guns since the populace isn't already substantially armed.

That is not the case in this country. There are already hundreds of millions of guns available in america. Everybody's friend, brother, uncle, cousin, has one. If you want one and they are difficult to buy, just go ask your pal. No need for a gun shop, or even a sneaky black market gun pirate.

We are more than 100 years too late to ban guns in america and have anything but a huge clusterfuck as a result.

And I said it on the last page, but I'll say it again. We've always had guns, but this kind of psycho spree violence is a new thing. Guns aren't causing it. Something else (something cultural) is causing it and trying to figure out what that is would probably be a more practical way to approach the issue in a country like the USA where gun ownership is constitutionally protected and a fundamental part of the culture.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

the point was the difference between Japan/Britain and America re: making guns illegal and the effect it would have on gun violence. Not the current reality as it exists today. Guns in America are cheap and easy to get, it's stupid to argue that.

It's stupid to argue that because guns already exist and are easy to get that we can't, going forward, make them harder to get.

If we do nothing, gun culture and gun ownership will never change, so using the fact they exist as an argument is meaningless. Coupled with a wrong fact, it just makes the entire "point" empty.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Do you agree or disagree that a gun is capable of doing more damage to more people in a shorter period of time than a knife?

In many circumstances, yes I agree a gun is more lethal. I'm saying the difference is negligible. Both are so lethal that they should be considered extremely lethal devices. A knife is extremely lethal. A gun just happens to be even more extremely lethal.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Something has to change. This may be the mass killing that effectuates such change. Kindergartners, man, kindergartners.

 

[sans_pants]

Well, that wraps it up for America, then. Can't fix it completely, so let's just not try.

all you can really do is make it harder to buy new guns. taking peoples guns away is not going to happen

 

[Fantastical]

Yes or no, are you not worried about what would happen if a man waked into an elementary school with a 15" knife with the intention to kill as many people as possible? Does it worry you how easily this could be accomplished?

Yes it does. Would I rather be in a mass murder situation put up against a guy with a knife vs a guy with a gun? Yes I would.

I don't understand how it's an argument that you have to use more effort to kill someone with a knife over a gun. There's a reason in America there are so few mass murder incidents involving knives.

 

[Owensboro]

What the hell are you even arguing about anymore?

I think he's argueing that a knife can do a whole 1d8+4 damage while a pistol only does a mere 1d4. He's not paying attention to range requirements though...

 

[Patrick Bateman]

The sad thing is not only that there are at least 27 people dead and more wounded, but that there won't be any change. There will be mournings and speeches, yet folks like NRA will come up with their stupid excuses they came up with before and prevent a proper weapon regulation..