Support NeoGAF

[Onion_Relish]

Sometimes I forget about all the international people and those, like myself, that would lambast such a comment for being too general.

Especially when the American government is the only one with these issues. Sometimes I fear canada under harper is going down the same road, especially considering how many guns we have. Thankfully most of them are rifles or shotguns, not machine guns or submachine guns.

 

[MattKeil]

Say what you want, but if I had to choose between my child's school having an armed guard, and not, I'd want one.

Columbine had two on staff. I believe the one scheduled to be there that day called in sick, though.

 

[dave is ok]

Well what percentage of crime is conducted with a semi-auto "mean looking" weapon? Why don't we have some actual math and statistics instead of making law based on how mean looking the gun is?

Aurora Colorado and Newtown were both AR15s.

 

[DarkFlow]

So the NRA, basically an extension of the GOP at this point, people who want the government minimized and out of our lives, now want the government to place armed guards in each school. Sure, that makes sense. The "UN is coming to take us over" brigade must love this idea.

You have that backwards, the GOP is an extension of the NRA.

 

[LordCanti]

This is just about how I feel (USA here). They maybe had a chance to put somebody out there to represent the reasonable-minded gun owner base and try to make sense. Instead they lost any chance they had of offering anything constructive to the conversation and narrowed the already razor thin appeal of their position with this BS. If there is any hope of having a constructive conversation about this, you have to abandon the NRA wholesale. Silly me, I had a microscopic sliver of hope they would at least try to make sense given how fast themselves and the Rupublican party are losing ground in this country. I've never understood the NRA, this was their chance to win a slice of my heart and they derp'd big time. Maybe this is par for them, I wouldn't know.

It is. Check out Heston's post-columbine speech.

 

[Talon]

Oh God.

PETA was at this event grandstanding about hunting? Shameless.

 

[CrankyJay]

Aurora Colorado and Newtown were both AR15s.

I thought it wasn't used in Newtown but left in the car?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Most people that have been questioning the 2nd amendment in media that I've been watching and reading is that the founders never intended it to be about access to all these high powered rifles with seeming limitless clips. I personally don't want to see guns banned outright at all, and I'm sure obama feels the same. We really need to have tougher regulation though on those high powered type of guns and the easy access to guns in the gun industry in general. I know a change like that would be intolerable to those who love guns and are active participants in the gun industry but this is an issue that must be addressed and not to leave out mental health issues as well.

Why do semi-auto rifles need to be legislated when the overwhelming majority of gun crime is done with handguns?

Is it just knee-jerk reaction from a national tragedy?
Is it fear of a scary looking firearm?

It seriously makes no sense to me. The closest to a reasonable (which I didn't find that reasonable at all) is that "Well, we need to start somewhere...". Why not start with the problem?

 

[massoluk]

I like Seth Meyers's tweet

@sethmeyers21
"NRA: If we banned schools there would never be another school shooting. "

Oh my god, if USA homeschooled everyone, there'd be no masskilling at school. How are we so blind?

 

[commish]

Do we really need ANY semi-automatic civilian guns?

Do we really need cigarettes? Do we really need alcohol? Should we just go ahead and ban anything that we don't "need" if it's dangerous if misused?

I'm all for increased gun control, but bans aren't going to happen, nor should they.

 

[mr jones]

Can we have an actual debate here instead of sarcastic comments? So far only a couple folks have said ANYTHING of worth about why we shouldn't have guns in school: cost prohibitive, and risk of the protector being mentally unstable.

The fact of the matter is that we do have armed security in banks. In airports. In stadium events. In some larger shopping malls. In government buildings. Even on some college campuses.

After a lot of violence in my high school, they started posting a police officer there, who would either be out in the parking lot, or by the front doors. While there has still been outbursts of violence there, it hasn't escalated to needing squads of police, and tear gas being deployed.

Why would you not want a trained armed security patrol or police officer on elementary or high school grounds?

 

[Qwell]

Well what percentage of crime is conducted with a semi-auto "mean looking" weapon? Why don't we have some actual math and statistics instead of making law based on how mean looking the gun is?

We've had the math in a few other threads, all rifle types account for about 5% of the gun related homicides, and "assault rifles" account for roughly .6% I think it was. Meanwhile handguns and shotguns represent the vast majority of all gun related homicides.

 

[CrankyJay]

Why do semi-auto rifles need to be legislated when the overwhelming majority of gun crime is done with handguns?

Is it just knee-jerk reaction from a national tragedy?
Is it fear of a scary looking firearm?

It seriously makes no sense to me. The closest to a reasonable (which I didn't find that reasonable at all) is that "Well, we need to start somewhere...". Why not start with the problem?

Shotguns look scarier with heat shields.

 

[Jackpot]

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,"

The above tells you everything you need to know about how little they grasp the situation.

 

[Clay Davis]

Oh God.

PETA was at this event grandstanding about hunting? Shameless.

I find the whole thing pretty shameless. why are the nra even calling press conferences, trying to shift blame to games and such? are they really that powerful in the us?

 

[The Technomancer]

Why do semi-auto rifles need to be legislated when the overwhelming majority of gun crime is done with handguns?

Is it just knee-jerk reaction from a national tragedy?
Is it fear of a scary looking firearm?

It seriously makes no sense to me. The closest to a reasonable (which I didn't find that reasonable at all) is that "Well, we need to start somewhere...". Why not start with the problem?

I think its a reaction to mass shootings specifically.

 

[Dead Man]

Can we have an actual debate here instead of sarcastic comments? So far only a couple folks have said ANYTHING of worth about why we shouldn't have guns in school: cost prohibitive, and risk of the protector being mentally unstable.

The fact of the matter is that we do have armed security in banks. In airports. In stadium events. In some larger shopping malls. In government buildings. Even on some college campuses.

After a lot of violence in my high school, they started posting a police officer there, who would either be out in the parking lot, or by the front doors. While there has still been outbursts of violence there, it hasn't escalated to needing squads of police, and tear gas being deployed.

Why would you not want a trained armed security patrol or police officer on elementary or high school grounds?

This is actually a good point. I think the difficulty comes from the 'trained' part. There are too many schools to protect each one with a well trained group of officers without massive costs, which people will not pay for.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

I agree with them. Though I would replace "armed guard" with an on duty police officer. Every middle school and high school in my city has an armed police officer on campus every day of the school year. I would love for them to roll that out to elementary schools as well, and if it became a nationwide practice, that would be even better.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

lol this doesn't work... There were armed officers in my Junior High and still none of them did nothing, most students ended up being able to bring shit like drugs and weapons. My High School has armed officers and you never see ANY of them, it's amazing how easily you can sneak drugs into highschool and weapons, too.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I don't understand why we even play that semantic game (and it's not like any of these terms are well defined).
You don't want to call an AR-15 an assault weapon?
Fine, let's call it whatever you want.
Can we now discuss if those weapons should be readily available to pretty much everyone with very little safeguards against those weapons getting into the hands of criminals and crazy people?

p.s.
Not that it's particularly relevant, but I'd rather have a mad gunman fire in full auto then single fire.
I don't enjoy that grim math, but the death toll will most likely be lower.

It's the same semantics game that is played with assault weapon bans. They use the term and visual identity of scary guns while ignoring the problem that they don't actually ban all guns. Ban an ar-15 because it's scary, but they then don't ban a rifle that looks like a hunting rifle but capable of firing the exact same bullets at the same speed? That's always been a major flaw with the AWB, it's implemented without enough work put into it, so they cherry pick evil sounding and looking weapons while ignoring countless others capable of the same exact thing. Why is this rifle ok? Because it looks like a civilian hunters rifle instead of something the army might carry. Only difference is visual. Assault weapon bans are stupid, if your going to ban anything, then aim for the higher capacity magazines.

You wouldn't want full auto being available easily more than semi with the high capacity mags available out there. Suddenly you got crazys with full auto and 250 round drums?

 

[commish]

The above tells you everything you need to know about how little they grasp the situation.

I'll bite. What's the best way to stop an armed bad guy intent on hurting people?

 

[Nokagi]

You might as well be arguing for bow hunting being the only legal form then...

Nonsense. You are aware there are guns without automatic fire, yes?

 

[Dan]

Not stopping Columbine doesn't mean there was no benefit. And you certainly can't take one isolated incident and extrapolate it to all, your sample size is too small. The Columbine officer could have been Barney Fife for all we know.

Yes, schools are big places. They will need to be on essentially complete lockdown now (a lot were already). Nobody gets in without getting buzzed in through the main doors. The cop is there in case someone slips in hiding a weapon, or if someone threatens the receptionist with a weapon to get buzzed in.

If you've got a better solution, I'd love to hear it. If that solution is to ban all guns in this country, that will never happen.

Given the designs of many schools, like ones with open layouts, locking schools down isn't even physically practical in many places, let alone fiscally. These suggestions of turning schools into fortresses with guards are just expensive band-aids taking even more money away from actual education while addressing none of the underlying issues behind these mass shootings.

 

[Seanspeed]

Handguns are semi-automatic...so are shotguns. Do you want to go back to muskets?

Preferably, yes.

Want a gun? Have a fucking musket, have fun.

Realistically, I'd be much happier if every civilian gun needed to be reloaded after every shot. Guns would still be powerful/lethal. You might just have to plan your shot better when hunting. I dont see any real need for a civilian gun to be semi-automatic.

 

[dave is ok]

I thought it wasn't used in Newtown but left in the car?

Nope. I think it was the primary gun used in Newtown

 

[CrankyJay]

lol this doesn't work... There were armed officers in my Junior High and still none of them did nothing, most students ended up being able to bring shit like drugs and weapons. My High School has armed officers and you never see ANY of them, it's amazing how easily you can sneak drugs into highschool and weapons, too.

What does having an armed guard have to do with sneaking items in?

It's not death prevention, it's death mitigation.

 

[CrankyJay]

Nope. I think it was the primary gun used in Newtown

Really? I thought it was two handguns...I guess the initial reports changed.

Dang, it did...sorry about that. It was a shotgun that was left in the car. So much misreporting that first weekend.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/nation...aster-ar-15-rifle-sig-sauer-9-mm-handgun-used

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Shotguns look scarier with heat shields.

LOL!

 

[ronito]

I don't think Americans realize what they're asking for when they talk about armed guards in school. I went to kindergarten in Venezuela where there were guys with Uzis walking down the street in front of my school. My parents remembered it vividly and it was a large part of them coming to the US where it was safer. More and more they keep moving to be less and less the country we immigrants believed in.

 

[Seanspeed]

Do we really need cigarettes? Do we really need alcohol? Should we just go ahead and ban anything that we don't "need" if it's dangerous if misused?

I'm all for increased gun control, but bans aren't going to happen, nor should they.

Guns are built for killing, cigarettes and alcohol aren't.

I dont see why we 'shouldn't' ban semi-automatic weapons in general. Seems like a good compromise to me. People still get their guns so they can hunt/shoot at ranges, they just wont be nearly as lethal, which is good. We need to stop being a country of 'Guns, fuck yea!' and start treating them more seriously.

 

[bill0527]

I honestly don't believe these people have done the math to figure out how much that would actually cost.

Morons.

Have you done the math on how much it would cost to attempt to remove every single firearm from every single legal and illegal person in this country? Not just in terms of financial cost, but in bloodshed also? You think some of these gun nuts are going to just walk up to a police tent set up in Wal-marts parking lot and hand over their guns on 'turn-in-your-gun-day'?

Don't get me wrong, i dont like the NRA's answer at all. But I don't think banning assault weapons will do one damn bit of good. Several mass killings have been done with simple handguns, so unless you want to ban every single firearm, banning assault rifles will do no good. Oh it might make people 'feel' good, like they really accomplished something, that is, until the next mass shooting happens, then everyone will be standing around scratching their heads like WTF just happened? We had LAWS against this.

The cat is already out of the proverbial bag on guns in the U.S. last I read, an estimate of 280 million firearms in this country. You will NEVER get rid of them. And, I know our Euro friends dont understand this, but this is a big, big fucking country. Much easier to try and control these things if you live on an island, or live in a country the size of Sweden. The only way you remove all guns in this country is to send the military and national guard door-to-door and have them confiscate and turn every single residence in this country upside down looking for them. That would never happen. We would be talking about the next civil war if anyone in power thinks that would be a good idea.

Another big question is, do you really trust your government on gun control? This government, who has no problem sending weapons wherever in the world and putting them in the hands of bad guys as long as those bad guys aren't as bad as their own leaders. Hell, this government just put 2,000 weapons into the hands of some of the most dangerous cartels in Mexico.

Realistically, these things will never stop, I dont care how many feel good laws you want to pass. Criminals and sick people are going to do criminal and sick things. How many billions of dollars and lives have been wasted on The War on Drugs, yet I can still go across the street and buy a dime bag, or go a little farther into the city if I want something a little harder. You think a war on guns is going to do any good?

I think the only realistic solution is to try and identify and keep tabs on the seriously mental ill people in this country. Do whatever we need to do legally to deny access to guns for those people, and possibly go so far as to deny legal gun ownership to parents of seriously mental ill children. Adam Lanza's mother should NEVER have had those weapons in her house knowing she had a child who was so disturbed that he probably needed to be committed to a mental institution. But then who is to say, if he was determined enough, he could have still gotten hold of as many guns as he wanted, through some other means, legal or illegal.

 

[Deacan]

So lets solve gun crime by giving more people guns.

 

[Account Attempt #4]

It is. Check out Heston's post-columbine speech.

Yeah, perhaps I will. It'll likely frustrate me if it makes as much (little) sense as this morning.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Preferably, yes.

Want a gun? Have a fucking musket, have fun.

Realistically, I'd be much happier if every civilian gun needed to be reloaded after every shot. Guns would still be powerful/lethal. You might just have to plan your shot better when hunting. I dont see any real need for a civilian gun to be semi-automatic.

The 2nd Amendment isn't subject to your arbitrary view of what someone "needs". Considering the Government is pimping tanks, jets, and nukes I don't think it's too much for the civilians to keep their semi-automatics and 10rd magazines.

Realistically, I'd be much happier if there were never incidents of violence and thus no need for anyone to use a gun ever. No legislation needed, life just becomes so good that they all rust away.

But until that magical fantasy land is real...people are going to be armed. I say disarm the criminals and leave the law abiding people alone for the most part.

As an aside: Is it realistic to give a tax break for gun owners that purchase a safe to store their firearms?

 

[CrankyJay]

Guns are built for killing, cigarettes and alcohol aren't.

I dont see why we 'shouldn't' ban semi-automatic weapons in general. Seems like a good compromise to me. People still get their guns so they can hunt/shoot at ranges, they just wont be nearly as lethal, which is good. We need to stop being a country of 'Guns, fuck yea!' and start treating them more seriously.

But they do...and using any of these things responsibly, including guns, don't kill people.

You can make molotov cocktails from alcohol...just saying. =P

 

[CrankyJay]

I don't think Americans realize what they're asking for when they talk about armed guards in school. I went to kindergarten in Venezuela where there were guys with Uzis walking down the street in front of my school. My parents remembered it vividly and it was a large part of them coming to the US where it was safer. More and more they keep moving to be less and less the country we immigrants believed in.

They moved to America because they were scared of armed guards at school or the reasons there were armed guards at school?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Have you done the math on how much it would cost to attempt to remove every single firearm from every single legal and illegal person in this country? Not just in terms of financial cost, but in bloodshed also? You think some of these gun nuts are going to just walk up to a police tent set up in Wal-marts parking lot and hand over their guns on 'turn-in-your-gun-day'?

Don't get me wrong, i dont like the NRA's answer at all. But I don't think banning assault weapons will do one damn bit of good. Several mass killings have been done with simple handguns, so unless you want to ban every single firearm, banning assault rifles will do no good. Oh it might make people 'feel' good, like they really accomplished something, that is, until the next mass shooting happens, then everyone will be standing around scratching their heads like WTF just happened? We had LAWS against this.

The cat is already out of the proverbial bag on guns in the U.S. last I read, an estimate of 280 million firearms in this country. You will NEVER get rid of them. And, I know our Euro friends dont understand this, but this is a big, big fucking country. Much easier to try and control these things if you live on an island, or live in a country the size of Sweden. The only way you remove all guns in this country is to send the military and national guard door-to-door and have them confiscate and turn every single residence in this country upside down looking for them. That would never happen. We would be talking about the next civil war if anyone in power thinks that would be a good idea.

Another big question is, do you really trust your government on gun control? This government, who has no problem sending weapons wherever in the world and putting them in the hands of bad guys as long as those bad guys aren't as bad as their own leaders. Hell, this government just put 2,000 weapons into the hands of some of the most dangerous cartels in Mexico.

Realistically, these things will never stop, I dont care how many feel good laws you want to pass. Criminals and sick people are going to do criminal and sick things. How many billions of dollars and lives have been wasted on The War on Drugs, yet I can still go across the street and buy a dime bag, or go a little farther into the city if I want something a little harder. You think a war on guns is going to do any good?

I think the only realistic solution is to try and identify and keep tabs on the seriously mental ill people in this country. Do whatever we need to do legally to deny access to guns for those people, and possibly go so far as to deny legal gun ownership to parents of seriously mental ill children. Adam Lanza's mother should NEVER have had those weapons in her house knowing she had a child who was so disturbed that he probably needed to be committed to a mental institution. But then who is to say, if he was determined enough, he could have still gotten hold of as many guns as he wanted, through some other means, legal or illegal.

No.

 

[dark_chris]

Armed guards at schools. I can imagine a guard aiming his rifle at a kid saying, "SHOW ME YOUR HALL PASS!"

 

[The Technomancer]

But until that magical fantasy land is real...people are going to be armed. I say disarm the criminals and leave the law abiding people alone for the most part.

Every gun owner is law-abiding until they're suddenly a criminal. Some of us are sick and tired of this country being completely reactionary, only acting after the fact.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Can we have an actual debate here instead of sarcastic comments? So far only a couple folks have said ANYTHING of worth about why we shouldn't have guns in school: cost prohibitive, and risk of the protector being mentally unstable.

The fact of the matter is that we do have armed security in banks. In airports. In stadium events. In some larger shopping malls. In government buildings. Even on some college campuses.

After a lot of violence in my high school, they started posting a police officer there, who would either be out in the parking lot, or by the front doors. While there has still been outbursts of violence there, it hasn't escalated to needing squads of police, and tear gas being deployed.

Why would you not want a trained armed security patrol or police officer on elementary or high school grounds?

Armed guards also create an atmosphere of fear, despite the goal being creating an atmosphere of safety.

Also schools are still relatively safe places. What are the chances of being shot at a school? Less than one in a million. Why are we wasting so much time and money on making only schools "safer" (if you can call it that) rather than looking at the bigger picture?

 

[Account Attempt #4]

Preferably, yes.

Want a gun? Have a fucking musket, have fun.

Realistically, I'd be much happier if every civilian gun needed to be reloaded after every shot. Guns would still be powerful/lethal. You might just have to plan your shot better when hunting. I dont see any real need for a civilian gun to be semi-automatic.

I share a similar view. Bolt action rifles with maybe a five round capacity is about as useful as any farmer could need to defend their livestock from predators. Any gun designed to kill people (ARs and semi auto handguns) really have overstayed their welcome by a long shot.

 

[ZZMitch]

Preferably, yes.

Want a gun? Have a fucking musket, have fun.

Realistically, I'd be much happier if every civilian gun needed to be reloaded after every shot. Guns would still be powerful/lethal. You might just have to plan your shot better when hunting. I dont see any real need for a civilian gun to be semi-automatic.

I like the sound of that.

 

[Seanspeed]

But they do...and using any of these things responsibly, including guns, don't kill people.

You can make molotov cocktails from alcohol...just saying. =P

I've heard of somebody getting killed with a pencil before. So you're saying there's no difference between pencils and guns? This is seriously the stupidest argument out there. There's a massive distinction between something that CAN be used to kill somebody(which is almost anything) and one that was specifically designed for it and can do it with incredible efficiency with no risk to the user.

I'm really tired of hearing this crap. THIS sort of attitude is the problem in this country. Its gun culture, plain and simple. People here are raised to think this sort of thinking is normal, when it shouldn't be.

 

[ronito]

They moved to America because they were scared of armed guards at school or the reasons there were armed guards at school?

Well it wasn't the only reason. But the reasons why troubled them.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Who pays for the guards, because schools can't even afford to pay for the hall monitors that they added post-Columbine. I believe most schools only kept up that charade for a year or two before budget constraints made them cull the numbers. Guards are gonna be even more expensive, and that will mean cutting down on educational staff.

It's an idiotic proposal, but I thought I'd actually point out the real-world fail involved. PEACE.

 

[The Technomancer]

Why is it so crazy to want to prevent crimes instead of only reacting to crimes after they've happened?

 

[commish]

Guns are built for killing, cigarettes and alcohol aren't.

I dont see why we 'shouldn't' ban semi-automatic weapons in general. Seems like a good compromise to me. People still get their guns so they can hunt/shoot at ranges, they just wont be nearly as lethal, which is good. We need to stop being a country of 'Guns, fuck yea!' and start treating them more seriously.

We should regulate things based on their effect, not on their original intention. I'm willing to bet that alcohol and cigs kill more people than handguns, yet you give them a pass because...?

We shouldn't ban semi-automatic weapons because:

- impossible to get that law on the books, so it's not a practical solution
- impossible to regulate the law, so it's not a practical solution
- doesn't address the underlying problem that made a guy want to murder 20 children

 

[NekoFever]

I love how they'll always argue that guns aren't to blame because people kill people, but they'll happily blame violent video games. Those kill people, obviously.

 

[Dead Man]

So, those people advoacting get rid of all semi automatic firearms, what are your thoughts on revolvers and lever actions?

 

[dave is ok]

We should regulate things based on their effect, not on their original intention. I'm willing to bet that alcohol and cigs kill more people than handguns, yet you give them a pass because...?

Their only purpose isn't killing people.