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[Kinyou]

Do you believe this? Like, really? I find that unbelievable. Do you genuinely think that all the countries where guns are banned have a populace that is controlled in a Totalitarian manner by their government?

In the USA, there is roughly 1 gun owned per person in the country. The next country down on that list is Serbia, on 0.58 guns per person. And that country used to be a FUCKING WARZONE. Given that the only use a gun has is to kill, you've got to a admit, there's a problem there.

Only when you're sitting in your bunker, rifle aimed at the door, are you truly free.

 

[Karakand]

I don't understand the argument "If you ban guns then only criminals will have guns.." because criminals have them now. They obviously don't care about the law so they will get them anyway.

If you outlaw crime, then only outlaws will commit crime.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Why do people do this. It's such a sleazy side step and arguing against something that wasn't even said. Nobody in this thread at all has said that Japan is perfect, all they've said is Japan works fine without guns everywhere. 'Fine' being they're not under a one party state.

Of course Japan has 'other problems' but why are you mentioning that if nobody else has. Those other problems Japan has? America has many of them too. But America also has the gun problem and Japan doesn't. A lot more people are killed in America because of this problem (and many others that Japan doesn't have like obesity).



Hunting should be banned too.

My point is that no place on Earth is a magical utopia the way people pretend when they attempt to compare the US and its issues to other nations.

Sorry if that upset/offended you. I didn't mean for it to.

 

[Kingbrave]

If you outlaw crime, then only outlaws will commit crime.

I know, it's like...totally as if they weren't criminals except guns...

 

[Liberty4all]

I appreciate the NRA coming out with a logical solution like this, rather than socialist democrats who are just politicizing this event to try and take guns from hardworking Americans.

sarcasm. Right? RIGHT?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This kid was known to be dangerous to the point his mother was working on getting him committed. He tried to buy guns and couldn't.

The only failure in this situation is the MOTHER. Who knew he was sick and still let him have access to her guns.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. But don't let this interrupt the circle jerk of banning guns in the US.

(And to anyone that says "No one is talking about banning all guns...read the thread.)

 

[The Technomancer]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. But don't let this interrupt the circle jerk of banning guns in the US.

(And to anyone that says "No one is talking about banning all guns...read the thread.)

And, lets just follow this through, if the irresponsible mother had not had legal access to those guns, what would have happened?

 

[sturmdogg]

Ah. I see the sheep are still blaming the sheepdog instead of the wolf.

 

[rac]

And, lets just follow this through, if the irresponsible mother had not had legal access to those guns, what would have happened?

He would have gotten them from the criminal that often visits their house with his guns.

 

[speculawyer]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. But don't let this interrupt the circle jerk of banning guns in the US.

(And to anyone that says "No one is talking about banning all guns...read the thread.)

How does blaming the mother advance your case?

It seems to me that you have admitted that our system does not work since these guns were legally purchased by her and ended up with a massacre such that we need better regulations to prevent this from happening again.

Well done, sir!

 

[The Technomancer]

Ah. I see the sheep are still blaming the sheepdog instead of the wolf.

When the system allows the wolf to have nine-inch claws I'm going to place some blame on that system

 

[DoomGyver]

Hunting should be banned too.

Haha, yeah. Let's throw population control out of the window too! Allow wild pigs to destroy even more crops. Food prices are already high enough.

 

[daycru]

Here's what I want. If someone uses your gun to do something awful, you're both on the hook for the crime.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Following the example set by the NRA, Alcoholics Anonymous will now suggest more whiskey to cure alcoholism...

 

[Mammoth Jones]

"As little freedom as possible"? Really? That's how you describe restrictions on owning guns designed specifically for killing or injuring a large number of things very quickly? Do you also think its your right to own chemical weapons? After all, you're responsible. Explosives? Should you be able to store enough explosives to blow up your block in your basement because saying otherwise would be patronizing you?

 

[sleepykyo]

The joke was that they wouldn't do it if they had to pay for it. Everyone wants everything done but only as long as they're not the ones paying for it. Republicans in general are especially bad with that.

I think they would be ok with it. Privatizing public defense will go over fairly well. Blackwater high school task force.

I'm not opposed to idea, but I want police officers. Trained personnel that feels an obligation to their community over trained personnel loyal to a corporation.

 

[BeEatNU]

Haha, yeah. Let's throw population control out of the window too! Allow wild pigs to destroy even more crops. Food prices are already high enough.

lol

 

[Liberty4all]

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner. But don't let this interrupt the circle jerk of banning guns in the US.

(And to anyone that says "No one is talking about banning all guns...read the thread.)

I'm talking about banning guns. The US's laws regarding guns are insane. I'm pretty sure my fellow Canadians, the Brits and pretty much every other civilized Western nation citizen would agree.

So do a significant portion of Americans too.


Really the writing is on the wall. Both in terms of what's going to happen to the Republican party as well as the insane far to the right Conservative/Republican agenda that's no longer in sync with the majority of Americans. It will take a few more years, and a few more boomers dying off but it's coming.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

lol

right? so sad


"Won't someone think of the crops?!"

 

[Clear]

The fixation on *ALL* types of guns being desirable just mystifies me. I can get my head around handguns, concealed-carry permits, shotguns, hunting rifles, etc being worth fighting for the right for; But military grade weaponry?

I just don't understand the absolutely no concession ever stance... it's just irrational.

 

[CorvoSol]

I'm pretty sure the security guards at my high school were armed already.

 

[ari]

1 announce the banning of all future sales of guns.
2 set a date of the bannings
3 watch the economy blow up
4 set up a strict 3 strike program in the law for current gun owners
5 monitor current weapons in the country

?????

win?

 

[CrankyJay]

How does blaming the mother advance your case?

It seems to me that you have admitted that our system does not work since these guns were legally purchased by her and ended up with a massacre such that we need better regulations to prevent this from happening again.

Well done, sir!

No amount of laws in the world will ever replace personal responsibility, nor should they.

 

[Angry Fork]

Haha, yeah. Let's throw population control out of the window too! Allow wild pigs to destroy even more crops. Food prices are already high enough.

I'm okay with that, it'll force society to search for solutions to food issues that don't require the torture of animals.

My point is that no place on Earth is a magical utopia the way people pretend when they attempt to compare the US and its issues to other nations.

Sorry if that upset/offended you. I didn't mean for it to.

Japan (and some other countries high up on the food chain) is a magical utopia compared to the US when it comes to gun violence which is what this is all about. I don't know why comparing the US to the UK isn't valid.

 

[bdouble]

The intention of the 2nd amendment was that the people would form the army of the nation through state organized militias. The Continental Army was disbanded after the revolutionary war because they did not trust a standing army. The duty of protecting the country fell to state run militias. Of course we now have a standing army and organized militias are no longer used. The second amendment has 0 application to current times.

NO final intention is so that the people can be armed and its the last line of defense against a tyrannical government that starts seizing land, property and peop

Except for most highly developed countries that do have disarmed people and are still able to be free. Gun ownership is not the fundamental driver of 'freedom', it's not a factor in it at all.

they never had the right to bear arms in the first place in most cases. From day one there were guns in the Americas. You can't apply a different rule from one people and just apply it to another. The founding fathers even put it in the constitution you have to be a very just and smart people to utilize the Bill of Rights and the government they set up. It doesn't carry over onto other situations.
le.

 

[Kingbrave]

Another thing that bothers me is this: it is extremely easy here in Southwest VA for me to get a concealed weapons permit. All I needed was proof that I had taken a hunter's safety course at some point in my life and 50 bucks.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Here's what I want. If someone uses your gun to do something awful, you're both on the hook for the crime.

I completely agree. It should be a national law to report missing/stolen weapons. Should also be a national law to store your weapons if you own more than "X".

 

[bdouble]

Another thing that bothers me is this: it is extremely easy here in Southwest VA for me to get a concealed weapons permit. All I needed was proof that I had taken a hunter's safety course at some point in my life and 50 bucks.

why is that bothersome? Yes you can and that is your right. There are millions of US citizens that carry every day.

 

[GaimeGuy]

My view on gun ownership and gun use and the right to bear arms:

When exercising your "right" involves depriving a right from another person (namely, their right to life), you should stop and think about whether you're enjoying something that truly is at its core a fundamental right. Regardless of what the constitution says, or what the courts interpret the constitution as meaning, I can not see the unconditional right to bear arms as a moral or logical truth. You have the right to defend yourself if need be, yes, but that doesn't require an unconditional access to firearms.

 

[Liberty4all]

I'm okay with that, it'll force society to search for solutions to food issues that don't require the torture of animals.




Japan (and some other countries high up on the food chain) is a magical utopia compared to the US when it comes to gun violence which is what this is all about. I don't know why comparing the US to the UK isn't valid.

Canada is probably the closest to "American" in terms of culture and we don't have anything remotely close to deaths per capita due to gun violence. America truly is "unique" in terms of how many guns per citizen they have, as well as the general attitude towards guns of the average American citizen. Thankfully that attitude is changing as the "left" grows in strength and voice.

Like I said in my previous post, the writings on the wall. Sane Americans won't put up with the ridiculous attitudes of the right and the American electorate will prove me right in the coming years. I do think though that this will lead to some crazy Waco Texas style shootouts along the way ... but increasingly the extreme right wing is going to continue to be marginalized in the US.

 

[Kingbrave]

NO final intention is so that the people can be armed and its the last line of defense against a tyrannical government that starts seizing land, property and peop

Do you really think that if the government decided it wants to take your property that a rifle would stop them? What are you going to do when they show up with a tank? Two rifles?


And I'm a gun guy, I just think this is a silly point to make.

 

[antonz]

I'm talking about banning guns. The US's laws regarding guns are insane. I'm pretty sure my fellow Canadians, the Brits and pretty much every other civilized Western nation citizen would agree.

So do a significant portion of Americans too.


Really the writing is on the wall. Both in terms of what's going to happen to the Republican party as well as the insane far to the right Conservative/Republican agenda that's no longer in sync with the majority of Americans. It will take a few more years, and a few more boomers dying off but it's coming.

The vast Majority of Americans are pro gun that includes a large percentage of Democrats.

The only failure of the system in this entire tragedy was a shitty gun owner who let her mentally deranged son play with her weapons. If she had been a responsible gun owner no one would be dead right now except maybe her for wanting to lock him away.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Bad things never happen there and everything is perfect? You're deluding yourself with such nonesense. I love Canada, Japan and Europe but they have their issues as well.



Why feel the need to tell a man who has committed no crime against anyone what he should or shouldn't do? Am I telling anyone in this thread they should get a gun? You do your thing, let me do mine. If I'm not committing a crime it should be a non-issue. Unless you have this nagging desire to tell others how *you* want them to live.

I got an alarm and a 12ga that's only been used to punch holes in paper. Chill.

Then why should we place any limit on weapons. There are people right now who own and shoot fully automatic weapons. Why shouldn't every American have that right? Why shouldn't every American have the right to own any weapon including RPG's and grenades?

And those weapons dont even address the idea that the 2nd amendment is meant to keep citizens armed so as to guarantee continuing freedom from tyranny of the state. If that is the meaning of the 2nd amendment then America is in violation by restricting access to any weapons that the military has. Why shouldn't any American be able to own a tank, black hawk helicopter, or even nuclear weapons?

The vast Majority of Americans are pro gun that includes a large percentage of Democrats.

The only failure of the system in this entire tragedy was a shitty gun owner who let her mentally deranged son play with her weapons. If she had been a responsible gun owner no one would be dead right now except maybe her for wanting to lock him away.

Was that the case in Aurora and Tuscon as well? How about Virgina Tech? And either way, once she was dead he would have gotten the guns anyway.

 

[Kingbrave]

why is that bothersome? Yes you can and that is your right. There are millions of US citizens that carry every day.

I forgot to mention the part where I have seizures every other day even though I'm on medicine for it. I think it should be harder. I took that course when I was really young, who says I remember that shit now? How does watching a video on wearing blaze orange decide that I'm responsible enough to carry a pistol concealed?

 

[DoomGyver]

I'm a hunter, that's what I do. I feed my family and people here on gaf want to take that away from me. I find a lot of comments in here absolutely disgusting. Get some perspective people.

 

[bdouble]

Do you really think that if the government decided it wants to take your property that a rifle would stop them? What are you going to do when they show up with a tank? Two rifles?

And I'm a gun guy, I just think this is a silly point to make.

Yes. Because lots of armed citizen with guns won't have anything to loose up when a tank runs through. If it comes to that point then the tanks will have a lot more to worry about than guns because their will be other tanks that don't agree with that side of thinking of enslaving and disarming the citizens.

 

[Snakeyes]

We teach students respect and responsibility for the firearms as well. We end the culture of withdrawal and ignorance and misguided extreme pacifism. Your counter example is also contradictory: a sane, responsible, law-abiding, trained adult would not:

a) shoot a student unless it was necessary (for example, the student is shooting other students)

b) allow their gun to be stolen (because they would also be trained in how to prevent that)

Or we (well, you guys) could just adopt a policy that's been proven to work in other civilized countries.

 

[GremlinFool]

Even theft? If some cunt robbed a law abiding citizen who kept their guns locked up.. they'd get the can too? Sheeesh GAF is overwhelming so anti-gun I'm starting to get a headache. I think I'm done with the OT side until this stuff blows over.

I'm a hunter, that's what I do. I feed my family and people here on gaf want to take that away from me. I find a lot of comments in here absolutely disgusting. Get some perspective people.

Buy food like the rest of us, forager.

 

[RDreamer]

why is that bothersome? Yes you can and that is your right. There are millions of US citizens that carry every day.

It's bothersome that it's that easy. In my opinion you should have to go through more of a class in order to get one. Something that goes through everything from proper use and storage to laws and even situational training. If you want a gun in order to be the responsible person to stop any situation that might pop up, then I want you to be trained at least somewhat. Go to training classes every week for a month or something with the local police department or something. This way, too, the police may be able to spot anything suspicious.

 

[Liberty4all]

The vast Majority of Americans are pro gun that includes a large percentage of Democrats.

The only failure of the system in this entire tragedy was a shitty gun owner who let her mentally deranged son play with her weapons. If she had been a responsible gun owner no one would be dead right now except maybe her for wanting to lock him away.

I don't think the majority of Americans are pro gun (although I have no stats/polls/etc to back myself up aside from anecdotal evidence.

re: the "shitty" gun owner

a. Everything I read about the mother is that she was trying to get her son help
b. If there were stricter gun control laws he wouldn't have had a gun to begin with

 

[CrankyJay]

Buy food like the rest of us, forager.

Really?

 

[Kingbrave]

Buy food like the rest of us, forager.

After all the wild pigs? That's a lot of bacon!

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I'm talking about banning guns. The US's laws regarding guns are insane. I'm pretty sure my fellow Canadians, the Brits and pretty much every other civilized Western nation citizen would agree.

Then let those nations make their own laws and enjoy them accordingly.

So do a significant portion of Americans too.

The majority of all Americans now support a completely repeal of the Second Amendment? Source plz?

Really the writing is on the wall. Both in terms of what's going to happen to the Republican party as well as the insane far to the right Conservative/Republican agenda that's no longer in sync with the majority of Americans. It will take a few more years, and a few more boomers dying off but it's coming.

The writing is on the wall because less than a week after this shooting many have used it to push their pre-existing beliefs.

And I say this as a person who is:
-Not a Boomer.
-Not a Republican.
-Not a Conservative.


The sad reality is some will user any tragedy as a springboard for their political agenda. But hey, let's keep fucking that chicken about repealing the Second Amendment instead of discussing reasonable things our government could do in order to reduce gun crime. Now.

I'm a hunter, that's what I do. I feed my family and people here on gaf want to take that away from me. I find a lot of comments in here absolutely disgusting. Get some perspective people.

 

[RDreamer]

Even theft? If some cunt robbed a law abiding citizen who kept their guns locked up.. they'd get the can too? Sheeesh GAF is overwhelming so anti-gun I'm starting to get a headache. I think I'm done with the OT side until this stuff blows over.

He probably means without reporting it. I think if your gun was used in a crime and you didn't report it within a proper time period and couldn't prove you took measures to keep it safely locked up, then yes you should be held at least a bit responsible. If you did lock it up, and you did report it when it was stolen, then you would be fine. Personal responsibility, mang.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm just extrapolating. They are all methods designed to kill a large number of people quickly. What separates them exactly? One involves firing projectiles at a rapid pace, the others don't?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I'm just extrapolating. They are all methods designed to kill a large number of people quickly. What separates them exactly? One involves firing projectiles at a rapid pace, the others don't?

Stuffing more straw in the strawman doesn't make your analogy valid.

 

[DoomGyver]

Buy food like the rest of us, forager.

Yeah I'm done with the OT for awhile. I come to GAF to read and enjoy discussion, polite, fair discussion. Not to be mocked like I'm some second rate citizen.

 

[Sobriquet]

The vast Majority of Americans are pro gun that includes a large percentage of Democrats.

Are there statistics on this? And what does pro-gun entail? And why do only 1% support the NRA?

 

[EatinOlives]

I'm just extrapolating. They are all methods designed to kill a large number of people quickly. What separates them exactly? One involves firing projectiles at a rapid pace, the others don't?

Dude, he posted a picture of straw. Don't you see? Your argument is automatically invalid!

 

[The Technomancer]

Stuffing more straw in the strawman doesn't make your analogy valid.

You claimed that you have a right to a method of killing a large number of people quickly. You claimed this. You said that to assume you couldn't handle it would be patronizing your personal responsibility. All I am asking is why you have a right to one form of that, but not others.