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[Codeblue]

I'm gonna throw $5 at Smash in hopes that we see a Hungrybox-Armada rematch.

 

[Professor Beef]

Can't believe DOA got no love as a main game. At least give it a year, EVO.

DOA did get a year at EVO already.

 

[Revven]

I'm gonna throw $5 at Smash in hopes that we see a Hungrybox-Armada rematch.

Y. Link vs Ness was the surprise of the tournament for me, haha. Two low tiers in Top 8?! Who would have thought!?

 

[Owlowiscious]

Ok I want to see MLP:FiM streaming. Will it get that, even thouugh it's not a "top 8"?

 

[darkblade77]

Ok I want to see MLP:FiM streaming. Will it get that, even thouugh it's not a "top 8"?

As long as it keeps the highest amount of donations over the other games, yes.

 

[Nikkuthulu]

I'll try to answer these as best as I can, I guess.

1. 8wayrun uploaded all of top 8 of Melee and Brawl to his youtube (he also has archives of the whole thing on his twitch.tv account, last I looked). Bifuteki streamed Melee Top 128 on Sunday (the archives should be available for free today) and CLASHTournaments streamed Brawl Top 128.

2. How are they fought... this is a broad question. Basically, the main events are singles, so 1v1. You have items off and a stage list. The stage list consists of Dreamland 64, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story, Final Destination, Battlefield, and Pokemon Stadium. I'm not going to go into a detailed explanation on why it's only these stages (there's a long, long, long history of it). The first match of any set starts off with striking stages to reach a single stage both opponents are comfortable with starting on. So, one player strikes BF, the next player strikes a stage they don't like or their character might not perform well on, then the other player strikes again, etc. until one stage is left. Characters are picked generally before striking, I believe. And then you play your first match.

The second match the loser is allowed to counterpick the stage and their character. But the winner can switch characters, so it's not an automatic win for the loser. The winner can also ban a counterpick (this is in Bo3, Bo5s are no bans iirc). So basically, there's a lot of thought that goes into just picking stages alone.

That's a really crude summary of the rules. You can find a much more detailed recommended but not official ruleset here

3. Let me clear up a common misconception started by a meme on youtube: there is no "fox only final destination". Yes, it can happen, but it's a very, very exaggerated look at the Melee scene. You hardly ever encounter Fox mirrors as the Grand Finals. In fact, Fox hardly wins tournaments (unlike Meta Knight, who wins almost every tourney hands down). He's just an extremely prevalent character, alongside Falco, Marth, Sheik, and Captain Falcon (who are just as prevalent, if not moreso).

It's just a horribly disgusting meme and I can't believe it still exists to this day. But maybe that'll change (doubtful D: ).

Thanks for answering the questions.

1.) Check. Checking all of these out now to give this a whirl. I'm curious to see how these played out. Always liked the game, but never even knew it had much of a tournament scene until much later.

2.) Reading up on the link stuff and it looks like they got a decent set up. I'm suspecting it came to a lot of trial and error in regards to what seems to fit most for the community. Now it's making me even more curious to the streams. Gotta see how this hype plays out. The counter-picking / picking reminds me of that Catherine tournament I saw. Is this the rule set the majority of the scene uses?

3.) Hey, it probably will eventually once the scene pick sup and and you start seeing more positive news. Heck, I remember when I use to lurk around SRK anytime a Smash Article was posted it was generally something negative. Guess that's why it sticks. Also, minor side question but is Metaknight really that awesome to take tourneys so easy?

 

[ArjanN]

Some updated stats:


MLP: $3574
Skullgirls: $2041
SSBM $1974
DOA5: $1262
GGXX: $1000
Divekick: $512

Skullgirls now number 2.

 

[Delusibeta]

Hey Smash community, get into gear: Skullgirls has taken second place, $2041 raised versus Melee's $1974. Still miles behind Fighting Is Magic's $3574, but there's still two weeks to go...

 

[DiscoShark]

Whoa Skullgirls with a huge spike, hopefully they can maintain that sort of momentum towards the end. Would love to see that game end up being an EVO contender.

Spoiler

Suck it Melee!

 

[SolarPowered]

DOA did get a year at EVO already.

That was a long time ago, Beef.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Lol this is great

 

[Anth0ny]

Hey Smash community, get into gear: Skullgirls has taken second place, $2041 raised versus Melee's $1974. Still miles behind Fighting Is Magic's $3574, but there's still two weeks to go...

Everyone's still coming home from Apex right now... don't worry.

 

[ArjanN]

Whoa Skullgirls with a huge spike, hopefully they can maintain that sort of momentum towards the end. Would love to see that game end up being an EVO contender.

Spoiler

Suck it Melee!

*Fistbumps*

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Go Skullgirls

 

[DR2K]

Some updated stats:


MLP: $3574
Skullgirls: $2041
SSBM $1974
DOA5: $1262
GGXX: $1000
Divekick: $512

Skullgirls now number 2.

Noo I'd rather SSBM or DOA5. Evo is already loaded with regular 2D fighters.

 

[SolarPowered]

Whoa Skullgirls with a huge spike, hopefully they can maintain that sort of momentum towards the end. Would love to see that game end up being an EVO contender.

Spoiler

Suck it Melee!

This foe will not be vanquished easily, my friend.

Noo I'd rather SSBM or DOA5. Evo is already loaded with regular 2D fighters.

You might even say it is saturated with them seeing as the Ponies will probably earn their #1 exhibition spot.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Where did Mike Z get all this money from?

 

[Nyoro SF]

Ok I want to see MLP:FiM streaming. Will it get that, even thouugh it's not a "top 8"?

As long as it wins, you'll get a Top 8 exhibition for the game.

 

[Revven]

Also, minor side question but is Metaknight really that awesome to take tourneys so easy?

Meta Knight pretty much dwarfs every character in Brawl due to how his attacks are structured frame-wise on top of his godlike recovery. (Five jumps + glide + Up B which transitions into yet ANOTHER glide?? Plus glide doesn't even go into special fall). He also is like the only character with an effective offensive game (I guess Diddy Kong is up there now but he still plays kinda bait and punish) and can create ridiculously easy shield pressure at the same time.

He also can just use one move in the game to completely lockdown some characters, making them entirely unviable. Some chars I can think of are Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, and Zelda who have like zero answers to this move. The move I'm talking about? Neutral B. His tornado.

For whatever reason, Sakurai decided it was a good idea to make this move impossible to trade with. Instead he made the move's hitboxes not have a certain priority that MK's other moves have. MK's priority acts like Falco's lasers. You can't clank with any of this moves (except glide attack, Side B, and Neutral B), you can only trade with them. This means he generally gets damage on you regardless of what move you throw out at him (unless, you know, your move is actually quick enough to hit MK before his move comes out).

Back to tornado though. Tornado doesn't have this priority that his other moves do, so you can't ever break through his tornado unless you manage to catch him when the hitboxes aren't out (there's like 1-2 frames in between the multi-hit hitboxes where you can hit MK) or manage to hit him in a certain part of the tornado with a really well spaced move. The tornado also lasts a really long time and when all the hits are dealt, it totals up to I think 20% damage? If used often the damage stales, but that doesn't really stop the player from continuing to use the move because that damage can rack up really quickly. MK can also maneuver during the tornado and seriously, opponents cannot get out of this (it's completely impossible to DI out of it).

Now, of course, all his moves aren't coming out at frame 1 obviously. But a lot of them are definitely like... below 10 frames of startup with very little endlag afterwards. It makes it extremely hard to punish the character for any whiffed moves.

He's also the only character in the game who can sorta, kinda combo and gimp characters (gimp means KOing them at a really low % with a successful string of moves or edgeguarding).

You'll likely see a lot of what I mentioned in Brawl Top 8 if you watch it (btw Brawl Top 8 is going to be extremely long as Brawl matches take ten times longer because the game's pacing is that much slower than Melee).

I wouldn't say it's easy to win huge tournaments with MK (it does take some great skill) but he is one of the easiest characters to pick up in Brawl and on top of that, he's the most successful and has the most developed metagame of the cast (alongside Snake, Falco, and Diddy Kong). So knowing all this, I'm sure you can see why the character is so prevalent and pretty dominant.

I think I covered everything... he's just a character with so few downsides compared to the other characters in the cast it's just always an uphill match no matter what. Even in Apex 2013 GFs for Brawl you'll see despite how good Salem is with his character, it's still an incredibly difficult MU. There's absolutely no reason to think after Apex that suddenly MK's dominance is over. It's not. MK is still an incredibly ridiculous and retarded character. I literally cannot fathom how he passed through Sakurai's playtesters.

MK is even hated by casual players.

Note: I don't follow Brawl's scene anymore so some stuff might be inaccurate.

 

[DR2K]

Where did Mike Z get all this money from?

Hording off the profits from Skullgirls? (j/k)

 

[kirblar]

It's simple: they didn't playtest the game outside of FFA items-on.

 

[Revven]

It's simple: they didn't playtest the game outside of FFA items-on.

But even there, MK is retarded. I'm sorry. He then gains projectiles, which only would aid in his ability to approach + KO.

 

[Nairume]

I see PSASBR just got a pity bump since the initial top 10 numbers were released.

 

[Anth0ny]

But even there, MK is retarded. I'm sorry. He then gains projectiles, which only would aid in his ability to approach + KO.

but his final smash is totally suck

there, he's balanced

 

[kirblar]

But even there, MK is retarded. I'm sorry. He then gains projectiles, which only would aid in his ability to approach + KO.

Again, though, you're only going to figure this stuff out if you're playing the game in a highly competitive environment. If everyone's going nuts with all items on and all stages it's just not the sort of thing that's going to be exposed.

 

[Revven]

Again, though, you're only going to figure this stuff out if you're playing the game in a highly competitive environment. If everyone's going nuts with all items on and all stages it's just not the sort of thing that's going to be exposed.

I guess. I still think it's remarkable.

 

[Dahbomb]

Wait a minute......

I thought Metaknight was banned?

 

[Revven]

Wait a minute......

I thought Metaknight was banned?

Nope. It's no longer a... TO-wide ban. Instead, TOs can choose to ban MK if they want to but they run the risk of having a lower turnout (there's a ton of MK players) including no M2K.

And also, the character isn't broken to the point he is unbeatable. Just completely and utterly retarded... which doesn't equate to being broken. So yeah. Pre. much MK is unbanned and yeah.

 

[Dachande]

Holy shit, yes! I thought Skullgirls didn't have a chance! Aside from VF5, it's easily the game I'm most interested in watching...

How long is the donation-vote drive open for? EDIT: Ah, the 29th... still lots of time for an upset then...

 

[Dahbomb]

So it's basically a soft ban now.

 

[MrDaravon]

I honestly don't really care for Skullgirls personally, but I think that would be a pretty feel-good story considering the situation with that developer and game. Now that they're putting numbers out will be interesting to see how this goes, but I'm also not really seeing why Sony couldn't just toss a (relatively) insignificant 10k into the pot to guarantee PASBR or something. Not releasing the numbers probably helped to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

 

[kirblar]

Nope. It's no longer a... TO-wide ban. Instead, TOs can choose to ban MK if they want to but they run the risk of having a lower turnout (there's a ton of MK players) including no M2K.

And also, the character isn't broken to the point he is unbeatable. Just completely and utterly retarded... which doesn't equate to being broken. So yeah. Pre. much MK is unbanned and yeah.

So, like 3S Chun?

I honestly don't really care for Skullgirls personally, but I think that would be a pretty feel-good story considering the situation with that developer and game. Now that they're putting numbers out will be interesting to see how this goes, but I'm also not really seeing why Sony couldn't just toss a (relatively) insignificant 10k into the pot to guarantee PASBR or something. Not releasing the numbers probably helped to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

I'd be supportive if I saw a future for the game.

 

[Dachande]

Now that they're putting numbers out will be interesting to see how this goes, but I'm also not really seeing why Sony couldn't just toss a (relatively) insignificant 10k into the pot to guarantee PASBR or something. Not releasing the numbers probably helped to prevent that sort of thing from happening.

Company/corporate donations are banned, apparently.

And Melee just overtook Skullgirls again, dammit.

 

[Ragingnight]

So, like 3S Chun?

I think Metaknight is a bit more powerful in his game than 3s Chun was in hers.

 

[tafer]

Welp. I take my words back.

The donation is doing great and I love to see Skullgirls with a serious chance of taking the second place.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

There's still 2 weeks left

 

[MrDaravon]

Company/corporate donations are banned, apparently

Oh that's good then. The next two weeks will be interesting, provided at least that there's not a total blowout early on or something. I don't have any particular favorites in the top 10, but it would also be rad to see something old like GG or CvS2 win randomly.

 

[Justin Timberlake]

Wintergamesfest just announced all entry donations for the Melee event will be donated to the EVO fund. Its usually a ~100-150 man tournament, so at $5 a person, expect a ~$600 donation after this weekend.

Melee's probably got this on wrap, but you can never be sure.

 

[Haunted]

Now it's a race.

Skullgirls and Melee both on their way to Evo, but only one will make it.

 

[Professor Beef]

2/3 of the top 3 are games I actually want to watch. Let's hope that 1/3 doesn't make it.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

Now would be a good time for that secret mid-January Lab Zero Direct, Ravidrath

 

[A Pretty Panda]

2/3 of the top 3 are games I actually want to watch. Let's hope that 1/3 doesn't make it.

Yeah fuck melee

 

[demidar]

Skullgirls would be pretty fun to watch I guess.

 

[supahkiwi]

Melee is at 2.1k right now

 

[tafer]

Checking the reactions of the brony community, I have to say they are taking it extremely well.

Hell, if the game proves to be worthy of this competition (and sorts all the copyright issues), I would love to see it next year as part of the official event.

 

[kirblar]

2/3 of the top 3 are games I actually want to watch. Let's hope that 1/3 doesn't make it.

Of the non-Pony games, I don't want to see DOA5, BB, VF5, Brawl or Skullgirls.

Checking the reactions of the brony community, I have to say they are taking it extremely well.

Main stage exhibition = they already won.

 

[Hitokage]

Main stage exhibition = they already won.

Only if they keep the lead. Otherwise the tourney won't be on stage.

 

[KingItachi]

Only if they keep the lead. Otherwise the tourney won't be on stage.

I expect them to keep the lead.

 

[kirblar]

I expect them to keep the lead.

I suspect they'll get it even if they don't due to the circumstances.

 

[Zissou]

I guess you need to know at least a little bit about the gameplay, but I feel like the majority of gamers out there know some simple things about Smash Bros. IMO the big things about Melee are:

Directional influence: when you get hit/thrown in Smash Bros. games, you can hold a direction to influence which direction you are thrown from the attack. In Melee, how someone "DI's" will determine whether or not they get combo'd. Sometimes, bad DI will always lead to a combo. A lot of the time, the attacker needs to predict the DI direction and pursue accordingly in order to land a combo. A series of DI reads can lead to long air combos that are pretty exciting to see.

Teching: Players have to 'tech' (hit a shield button upon tumbling onto a surface) in order to prevent themselves from easily being combo'd. However they only have three options: stand straight up, roll left, or roll right. If your opponent reads your tech, you can still be combo'd. Again, long series of tech reads are pretty hype and exciting to see, and easier to see to viewers than something like an incredibly advanced Street Fighter read (stuff like punishing a crouch tech is completely invisible a lot of the time--to an average viewer it would just look like they weren't blocking and got hit).

Combos: because of the above, as well as varying damage percentages and other variables, combos are very dynamic in Smash. When someone lands a large string, it's pretty exciting to see, and was almost never a guaranteed combo. Because of DI reads and sometimes tech reads, the combo was possible--not "I opened you up so I can now do a gigantic combo that I can always do every time."


Probably a lost cause but this is likely why most people think the game is hype.

Brawl is not hype because the hitstun is so low that there are rarely any techs, and rarely any combos of any kind. Not to mention there is no edge game due to characters having powerful recovery options, high ledge invincibility, and the ability to 'snap' to grabbing the ledge from far distances at any point of their recovery attacks. The only time Brawl is hype is if the game is really close at the end. And any game with money on the line is hype in that scenario.

I just wanted to say thanks for your lengthy post. I didn't have any idea what constituted high level smash play, so it's nice to get a bit of insight. If it makes it to evo, I hope they get better commentators than they had at apex though- that shit was terrible.