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[Thunder Monkey]

How would it gimp the graphics design if it was designed for 4k from the start?

I'm talking with the power to run it at 4k while looking as it does in terms of IQ at 720 or 1080.

So... upscaling?

That doesn't actually take any power from the console. Your TV's do that.

I thought (and probably Reiko) that you were meaning games designed under 4K internally. Otherwise you're talking about power well beyond this next batch. Unless you want those games to look like late gen Xbox titles rendering at 4k.

 

[BlackJace]

No, none of the machines will hit even 2 teraflops. If they do, I'll eat 2 hats.

Wasn't thuway going on about how the PS4 was supposed to hit 2.5 earlier?

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Bunch of leaks have come out. The glasses, 1 core being reserved for it, 1.5/2GBs will be reserved for OS purposes and Kinect purposes.

The glasses thing sounds like bullshit and/or not due for a few years, any way. The RAM requirements are speculation.

I meant more the fact that there are people leaking the next Xbox specs, but the hardware specs for the Kinect that many assume will be there day one in some form are nowhere to be found.

There have been rumours, sure, but nothing as recent as this stuff.

 

[Can Crusher]

How would it gimp the graphics design if it was designed for 4k from the start?

I'm talking with the power to run it at 4k while looking as it does in terms of IQ at 720 or 1080.

Just like turning a switch.

The glasses thing sounds like bullshit and/or not due for a few years, any way. The RAM requirements are speculation.

I meant more the fact that there are people leaking the next Xbox specs, but the hardware specs for the Kinect that many assume will be there day one in some form are nowhere to be found.

There have been rumours, sure, but nothing as recent as this stuff.

Well I'm guessing because the reason why devs and gamers are excited for next gen isn't due to what some gimmicky bullshit like Kinect/Move/Touchpad. So nobody is really that interested to talk about or leak, MS can keep that one for themselves.

 

[Ryoku]

Wasn't thuway going on about how the PS4 was supposed to hit 2.5 earlier?

I'm not speaking of Thuway specifically here (I don't really follow people's posts so closely), but there are quite a few people who have mentioned that the consoles will be able to match 2.5 TFLOPs (or greater) even with lesser hardware given the closed system design inherent to consoles. One thing I have to say to that: No.

I even remember people talking up 4TFLOP performance a few months ago.

Oh yeah, FLOPs isn't the end-all spec. In fact, there are more important and accurate measures of GPU power.

 

[Eideka]

No, none of the machines will hit even 2 teraflops. If they do, I'll eat 2 hats.

That's rather unfortunate, oh well the software will look amazing regardless.

 

[Reiko]

Proelite better not be using reverse psychology...

 

[Ryoku]

Proelite better not be using reverse psychology...

Maybe he likes eating hats :/

 

[Proelite]

Wasn't thuway going on about how the PS4 was supposed to hit 2.5 earlier?

I think he meant performance compared to PC.

1.5 teraflops in a console is comparable to 2.5 in a PC etc etc.

 

[Can Crusher]

That's rather unfortunate, oh well the software will look amazing regardless.

Discrete GPUs on PC's leave like 40% of their theoretical performance unused. Point here is that on a closed system designed to use the max amount theoretical performance possible from it's hardware, less might not equate to actual less.

 

[BlackJace]

I think he meant performance compared to PC.

1.5 teraflops in a console is comparable to 2.5 in a PC etc etc.

Ahhh okay. Got me suspicious and worried lol.

 

[JaggedSac]

Well I'm guessing because the reason why devs and gamers are excited for next gen isn't due to what some gimmicky bullshit like Kinect/Move/Touchpad. So nobody is really that interested to talk about or leak, MS can keep that one for themselves.

Speak for yourself, I am certainly interested in a Kinect with 720p60fps depth data.

 

[Can Crusher]

Speak for yourself, I am certainly interested in a Kinect with 720p60fps depth data.

It's all good man.

 

[Karak]

@i-Lo

Correct, the eDRAM/eSRAM can be used to apply things like anti-aliasing, motion blur and depth of field to the final image.

Thanks I had to go eat something and missed his post.

 

[Karak]

Speak for yourself, I am certainly interested in a Kinect with 720p60fps depth data.

EDIT:
Damnit...even at 4.5 TFLOPS I still sometimes doublepost.

I have to agree there. Though Can Crusher never means harm
For me I expect a big jump in GFX and I also see that already in PC. But the modes of other entertainment, the ways that is presented, are VERY interesting to me. All kinds of stuff. VR, Kinect, Illumaroomicalawesomness, and all that jazz.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

I meant more the fact that there are people leaking the next Xbox specs, but the hardware specs for the Kinect that many assume will be there day one in some form are nowhere to be found.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: perhaps the new Kinect hardware specs won't be all that different from the old Kinect hardware specs. Instead, the improvements would be made on the software and the processing side (more resources dedicated to the thing could make a significant difference, especially if the 360's interface bottlenecks are removed). That might also explain how they could include one with every console without it having a big impact on the price.

 

[Karak]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: perhaps the new Kinect hardware specs won't be all that different from the old Kinect hardware specs. Instead, the improvements would be made on the software and the processing side (more resources dedicated to the thing could make a significant difference, especially if the 360's interface bottlenecks are removed). That might also explain how they could include one with every console without it having a big impact on the price.

Hmmm.
Without getting in trouble. We do know that USB held back the actual throughput of the original Kinect in a big way....ya that's about all I am going to write about that.

 

[JaggedSac]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: perhaps the new Kinect hardware specs won't be all that different from the old Kinect hardware specs. Instead, the improvements would be made on the software and the processing side (more resources dedicated to the thing could make a significant difference, especially if the 360's interface bottlenecks are removed). That might also explain how they could include one with every console without it having a big impact on the price.

They will at least need to improve the fps on it, it is the biggest cause of latency. No way to get around that given the need for smoothing filters and such. And I think a bump in resolution would do wonders as well.

 

[luffeN]

Quick question about 3D: To be able to get 60fps in 3D, does the game need to run at 120fps in 2D?

 

[Reiko]

Hmmm.
Without getting in trouble. We do know that USB held back the actual throughput of the original Kinect in a big way....ya that's about all I am going to right about that.

Delicious.

 

[AgentP]

What makes you think GT6 won't be 1920*1080p/60fps ?

We are talking about 2.5 teraflops machines at the very least.

1080P @ 60fps should be cake for the PS4, but a lot depends on additional rendering features and AA method and level. That is only 1.5x the pixels GT5 is pushing on the PS3.

Though I'm confused on why people are using FLOPs as a metric for anything.

 

[OryoN]

Thank God you are not a developper.

1080p all the way. The hardware should allow it easily.

Sure. If all you want is current gen games with a resolution upgrade that's minor in most people's eyes.

John Carmack:

"If you take a current game like Halo which is a 30 hertz game at 720p; if you run that at 1080p, 60 frames with high dynamic frame buffers, all of a sudden you've sucked up all the power you have in the next-generation.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/354478/id-softwares-john-carmack-not-excited-by-next-gen/

If John Carmack believes that running current gen games in 1080/60pfs will pretty much consume most of the power next-gen consoles have to offer, is it really that far fetched that some next-gen games will target 720p while boasting significant visual detail?

 

[Can Crusher]

1080P @ 60fps should be cake for the PS4, but a lot depends on additional rendering features and AA method and level. That is only 1.5x the pixels GT5 is pushing on the PS3.

Though I'm confused on why people are using FLOPs as a metric for anything.

What metrics are you using to judge these two consoles?

Hmmm.
Without getting in trouble. We do know that USB held back the actual throughput of the original Kinect in a big way....ya that's about all I am going to write about that.

 

[aegies]

Sure. If all you want is current gen games with a resolution upgrade that's minor in most people's eyes.

John Carmack:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/354478/id-softwares-john-carmack-not-excited-by-next-gen/

If John Carmack believes that running current gen games in 1080/60pfs will pretty much consume most of the power next-gen consoles have to offer, is it really that far fetched that some next-gen games will target 720p while boasting significant visual detail?

That's something like 8 times the processing power across the board to accomplish. Though I actually expect Durango and Orbis will both exceed that.

 

[EvB]

Sure. If all you want is current gen games with a resolution upgrade that's minor in most people's eyes.

John Carmack:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/354478/id-softwares-john-carmack-not-excited-by-next-gen/

If John Carmack believes that running current gen games in 1080/60pfs will pretty much consume most of the power next-gen consoles have to offer, is it really that far fetched that some next-gen games will target 720p while boasting significant visual detail?

Presumably if you are rendering twice as many frames in the same period of time (60fps), you can also render half as many frames (30fps) but with twice as much detail?

To be honest, I don't want my next gen games to look like current games, just with a better framerate.
I want to have my tits blown off by something looking incredible, unlike anything I've ever laid my mortal eyes on.

 

[Can Crusher]

Next gen character models?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jfpaOg-fTbM

 

[Karak]

Next gen character models?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jfpaOg-fTbM

I see they still can't do facial hair right

 

[EvB]

FMV character models?

 

[aegies]

I see they still can't do facial hair right

That's still way past where we are right now.

 

[Karak]

That's still way past where we are right now.

Man not in my book.
Going from a chia pet to a unspooled steel wool pad...aint much improvement to me

Take all slamming I do with a grain of salt. I am not so idiotic to not know that those are works in progress but I like to keep my expectations low.

I mean its not like its World Police disguise bad

 

[CrunchinJelly]

Hmmm.
Without getting in trouble. We do know that USB held back the actual throughput of the original Kinect in a big way....ya that's about all I am going to write about that.

USB3?

 

[Reiko]

That's still way past where we are right now.

UFC games have higher fidelity on their models since the backgrounds are really simple to create.

You may be very well looking at next gen models.

 

[AgentP]

What metrics are you using to judge these two consoles?

Not floating point operations. Maybe memory bandwidth, texture fillrate, pixel fillrate, number of core or stream processors? We use FLOPs at work, but we do GPGPU stuff unrelated to rendering.

The number of trivial single precision multiply and adds is probably not going to tell you how well a game will render. Just take a 2TFLOP GPU and pair it with 128-bit DDR3 RAM and a real game engine.

 

[Satchel]

Wishful thinking but I wonder what this will be about?

http://msftopenhousesvc.eventbrite.com/#

 

[Ashes]

Wishful thinking but I wonder what this will be about?

http://msftopenhousesvc.eventbrite.com/#

Ooh. Interesting...

Wonder if they will talk about Skype integration.

 

[clutch.as.it.gets.]

EDIT:
Damnit...even at 4.5 TFLOPS I still sometimes doublepost.

I have to agree there. Though Can Crusher never means harm
For me I expect a big jump in GFX and I also see that already in PC. But the modes of other entertainment, the ways that is presented, are VERY interesting to me. All kinds of stuff. VR, Kinect, Illumaroomicalawesomness, and all that jazz.

That stuff has zero value to me.

I just hope the "big jump in GFX" is good enough... i'm not convinced yet.

 

[ekim]

Wishful thinking but I wonder what this will be about?

http://msftopenhousesvc.eventbrite.com/#

Is this public?

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Since we're going round and round on the customizations, here are some things Bkilian mentioned that I hadn't seen specifically posted here:

About the possibility of the Jaguar cores being custom.

In regards to the 3 customized features Durango is rumored to have.

Commenting on comparing console GPUs to PC GPUs.

Doesn't sound like the customizations are "magic" that will provide 4TF performance, but it does sound like Durango is customized in such a way the general flop vs flop comparison aren't really going to tell us anything.

 

[Reiko]

Since we're going round and round on the customizations, here are some things Bkilian mentioned that I hadn't seen specifically posted here:




Commenting on comparing console GPUs to PC GPUs.

O_O

 

[i-Lo]

Next gen character models?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jfpaOg-fTbM

Uh... that's uh.. next gen? Kind of underwhelming. Improved... but underwhelming. In a game like UFC with only two primary characters on screen, one would hope for better things.

Need to rationalize: Uh, well perhaps they'll look much better in motion with better body animation, collision physics and with improved lighting condition.

EDIT: Nvm, I looked at it at 1080p instead 480p. Now I see the details in texture. Plus, the skin and muscle wrinkles are actually pretty darn good. Reminds me star wars TFU2 CG. At least the first half of the trailer did. The second half looked current gen stuff, save the high poly untextured model at the end.

 

[phosphor112]

Quick question about 3D: To be able to get 60fps in 3D, does the game need to run at 120fps in 2D?

No, 60 fps with double the resolution. The system then splits the two pictures and then sends 1 left then 1 right.

 

[Psychotext]

O_O

All interesting reading.

 

[Reiko]

All interesting reading.

I know. I just didn't expect him to say that. Given how very vocal the PC crowd is on B3D.

 

[Eideka]

Since we're going round and round on the customizations, here are some things Bkilian mentioned that I hadn't seen specifically posted here:

About the possibility of the Jaguar cores being custom.

In regards to the 3 customized features Durango is rumored to have.

Commenting on comparing console GPUs to PC GPUs.

Doesn't sound like the customizations are "magic" that will provide 4TF performance, but it does sound like Durango is customized in such a way the general flop vs flop comparison aren't really going to tell us anything.

Very good news. No one has to loose from powerful consoles, and certainly not PC gamers.

 

[gaming_noob]

Since we're going round and round on the customizations, here are some things Bkilian mentioned that I hadn't seen specifically posted here:

About the possibility of the Jaguar cores being custom.

In regards to the 3 customized features Durango is rumored to have.

Commenting on comparing console GPUs to PC GPUs.

Doesn't sound like the customizations are "magic" that will provide 4TF performance, but it does sound like Durango is customized in such a way the general flop vs flop comparison aren't really going to tell us anything.

Stop comparing these systems to high end PC GPUs that require 300 watts just to function. For one, they have different constraints and requirements. For another, it's not all about the GPU. Raw GPU flops does not tell the whole story. I guarantee you, Microsoft's next system will be able to do things your current computer does not have the resources to do, and I say that knowing some of you folks have monster PC setups. (Dunno about Sony, I know next to nothing about their system)

And that's all we should care about; real world difference.

 

[Reiko]

Very good news. No one has to loose from powerful consoles, and certainly not PC gamers.

No doubt. The ceiling for PC gaming is about to go up in a big way.

So it's not hyperbole to say Crysis 3 Ultra on PC is barely scratching the surface.

It will be glorious on consoles and PC.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Wishful thinking but I wonder what this will be about?

http://msftopenhousesvc.eventbrite.com/#

At Microsoft we are changing the face of entertainment by creating and publishing more immersive, interactive, intuitive, and wickedly fun experiences that put consumers of any age at the center of a whole new entertainment universe. The future of TV, movies, music, sports, gaming and more will be in your hands.

Suspicious...

 

[TheOddOne]

His follow up post:

Don't read _too_ much into it, it's just that PCs have to be general purpose. A console can spend silicon budget on fixed function stuff that can accelerate things way beyond what a PC could accomplish. The 360, for instance, can decode 320 or so simultaneous XMA streams without involving the CPU very much at all. To do the same in software would be prohibitive. Items like that, if used well, can result in the ability to perform feats that cannot currently be done on any CPU or GPU today.

 

[BlackJace]

His follow up post:

Yeeeahh, that sounds slightly hyperbolic.

 

[Eideka]

No doubt. The ceiling for PC gaming is about to go up in a big way.

So it's not hyperbole to say Crysis 3 Ultra on PC is barely scratching the surface.

It will be glorious on consoles and PC.

That's what I've been saying for quite some time, Crysis 3 is an "early" next-gen title judging by its visuals.

But who knows, perhaps he will lose that monicker soon. I really dislike the thought of it being "the standard" for two years...It's too weak.