VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis

Can Crusher said:
Oh really?

Damn lol, I honestly thought it was all based on an old rumor. That just changes my perspective a lot.

Puts into question the whole memory design to begin with. Well that sounds disappointing.

And well, they shouldn't for multiple reasons, but I've already pointed them before. They are doing it anyway, so, let's see how well they do betting billions with a losing hand.
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Did you see any of the Motion Eye stuff at CES? We can get a good idea of what Kinect 2.0 will be from some of that stuff and its pretty incredible man. The general public is going to freak out if it launches with that support. With it being so tied into the OS and your complete viewing experience whether its movies, tv or surfing the internet I really believe people are going to see it as the next generation.
 
Well, the DF article offers up the retail Orbis box with a bunch of details and the VGLeaks article has a couple of outlines for devkits that do not conflict with (and seem to confirm) what DF said.

The only weird thing is that the VGLeaks article didn't specify what kind of RAM that 4GB in Orbis is. But VGLeaks seems to know less on the whole, too.

Now what are we thinking has changed? Does it have anything to do with the VGLeaks article? Because I think that would be misguided.
 
Can Crusher said:
But why should I believe that number? Until it's known how much memory is reserved for OS purposes, I won't call out a whole generation based on it.

It just sounds like a prediction that can be very wrong.

Cutting a little deep there... :(

And just sounds like you are trying to be a bit of an a. I know my formatting skills aren't stellar, but calling it gamefaqs material based on a couple of questions and contrasts just seems a bit harsh.

Whatever floats your boat anyway.
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The accusation of platform bias flung towards Timothy Lotte is unwarranted. There's nothing untoward about suggesting greater corporate agendas may influence design philosophies.

For Microsoft they appear to be W8, Kinect 2.0 and DVR functionality; reflected in the overarching design I believe. The priority, imo, appears to have been a large RAM pool sufficient to drive these functions for example.

Of the things you listed in your contrast for past precedent only BluRay really hits the mark as an overarching corporate agenda influencing design. There hasn't been any clear corporate agenda driving the PS4 so far as I can tell - the inclusion of two cameras, touchpads and whatever other crap gets thrown in to try and lure the new casual gamer don't appear to be driving the underlying hardware design. There's no new costly media format etc.

It could simply be that Sony are trying to build a simple, relatively powerful and not excessively costly system. That's all the leaked specs would say to me.
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
Did you see any of the Motion Eye stuff at CES? We can get a good idea of what Kinect 2.0 will be from some of that stuff and its pretty incredible man. The general public is going to freak out if it launches with that support. With it being so tied into the OS and your complete viewing experience whether its movies, tv or surfing the internet I really believe people are going to see it as the next generation.
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Motion control for entertainment(movies, etc) has been, is, and will be a failed road
 
lherre said:
Basically what I want to say is that the 192 figure has been there since mid 11 not early 2012 (so it's older). I won't say if this has changed or not over the time.
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So i backtracked through the thread to see where this talk of downgraded bandwidth started, and I came to this post. It seems like you guys(thuway, ect) are treating this extremely vague post as fact that the bandwidth has gone down. Not only gone down, but gone down by nearly 50%! That seems pretty ridiculous.
 
damn looking at Yoshida's tweet about Oculus makes me wish Sony buys them and PS4 is packaged with it day 1 ... megaton E3

PlayStation Orbulus
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
Did you see any of the Motion Eye stuff at CES? We can get a good idea of what Kinect 2.0 will be from some of that stuff and its pretty incredible man. The general public is going to freak out if it launches with that support. With it being so tied into the OS and your complete viewing experience whether its movies, tv or surfing the internet I really believe people are going to see it as the next generation.
Click to expand...

It's a choice. Strategically I only see what they will lose by trying to skip past first base.

shinra-bansho said:
The accusation of platform bias flung towards Timothy Lotte is unwarranted. There's nothing untoward about suggesting greater corporate agendas may influence design philosophies.

For Microsoft they appear to be W8, Kinect 2.0 and DVR functionality; reflected in the overarching design I believe. The priority, imo, appears to have been a large RAM pool sufficient to drive these functions for example.

Of the things you listed in your contrast for past precedent only BluRay really hits the mark as an overarching corporate agenda influencing design. There hasn't been any clear corporate agenda driving the PS4 so far as I can tell - the inclusion of two cameras, touchpads and whatever other crap gets thrown in to try and lure the new casual gamer don't appear to be driving the underlying hardware design. There's no new costly media format etc.

It could simply be that Sony are trying to build a simple, relatively powerful and not excessively costly system. That's all the leaked specs would say to me.
Click to expand...

Realizing now that the OS memory reserve is really around 3 GB, I see the same.

But Sony's casual and wide market appeal dates back to PS2 days, and I stand by those parallels. I'm not into revisionist history, so up until now there's really nothing saying MS going for the casual and MS not, when in fact the only thing it happened this gen was MS simply had a hit with Kinect and Sony had a failure with Move (talking about mindshare).

Orbis and Durango would/will simply show a different set of strategic choices going forward. The only thing that makes me believe MS is really gonna try to go for the casual from the get go is the 3GB memory reserve for the O.S

That is the only true indicator that MS isn't primarily designing a games console.
 
Couldn't this two cameras just be adding support for it into the system, with a view to releasing it as an add on at a later stage? Don't see the point in pushing the price up for something that some people may not want.
 
JohnnySasaki86 said:
So i backtracked through the thread to see where this talk of downgraded bandwidth started, and I came to this post. It seems like you guys(thuway, ect) are treating this extremely vague post as fact that the bandwidth has gone down. Not only gone down, but gone down by nearly 50%! That seems pretty ridiculous.
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There was some additional info after the discussion got rolling. The number ~170GB/s was "leaked". This is only a 11% reduction and the bandwidth is still 2.5x the fastest DDR.
 
AgentP said:
There was some additional info after the discussion got rolling. The number ~170GB/s was "leaked". This is only a 11% reduction and the bandwidth is still 2.5x the fastest DDR.
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Oh ok. Do u think u could link me that post? I was seeing people mention ~140gb/s and others saying it would end up being close to Durango.
 
Kovet said:
is RAM speed more important than ram size? or vice versa?
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It depends on your task and probably also on your design philosophy. There are of course limitations where the RAM is simply to slow or you don't have enough. In this case I would prefer 4GB with 192GB/s over 8GB with 68GB/s (even when I can offload some work to the eSRAM). 2GB fast versus 8GB slow I go for the later.
 
systemfehler said:
It depends on your task and probably also on your design philosophy. There are of course limitations where the RAM is simply to slow or you don't have enough. In this case I would prefer 4GB with 192GB/s over 8GB with 68GB/s (even when I can offload some work to the eSRAM). 2GB fast versus 8GB slow I go for the later.
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so with these rumored specs which console will be developed for natively and which will get the ports? and if it does work that way will the ports be of good quality? (assuming developers are somewhat competent)
 
systemfehler said:
It depends on your task and probably also on your design philosophy. There are of course limitations where the RAM is simply to slow or you don't have enough. In this case I would prefer 4GB with 192GB/s over 8GB with 68GB/s (even when I can offload some work to the eSRAM). 2GB fast versus 8GB slow I go for the later.
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More like 4GB with 176GB/sec (to be on the safe and conservative size).
 
I called it a month ago. Sony systems will bundle a VR headset: Whether its Oculus Rift or a Sony proprietary, Sony will deliver.

Standard edition (no VR) $399.

Pro edition (with VR) $599

That has been my prediction and I'm sticking to it.
 
Xiaoki said:
Yeah, its not like theres precedent for these things.

Cheap Xbox had to be recalled due to faulty power cables.

Cheap Xbox 360 cost MS billions due to RRoD.

PS2 had everything thrown in no matter the cost.

PS3 had everything thrown in no matter the cost.

I mean really, how does this shit add up?
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I'm sorry, I know this is an older post, but I was catching up with other posts and just saw this. This is exactly the kind of crap post that goes unnoticed.

I won't bother going into details, because it's not worth it, but this post is very very flawed and silly.

BruceLeeRoy said:
I don't agree. If the rumored specs we have is all that Durango amounts to and the "Secret Sauce" isn't something to take the load of the GPU significantly and is something like BC instead(Which I highly doubt since several insiders on here are stating its definitely to help the GPU out in some fashion) but lets just say for arguments sake thats it. Those specs are more than enough to see a jaw on floor leap between Halo 4 and the next Halo and Blops 2 and the next Blops. Plus they are allocating resources so Kinect can really be the centerpiece of the OS which will let them do all kinds of amazing stuff(CES videos are pretty nuts).

At $400 if they are hitting both of those targets with this spec I thinks its a homerun. The hardcore games will still be there. Microsoft isn't going to abandon the people that made them who they are but I can see why it makes a good amount of sense to court both parties.
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The thing is, if these rumors are to be believed, it stands to reason that MS has invested more (financially) into Durango than Sony has for Orbis, making the hardware more expensive. IF this is the case, they would A) either need to price higher price or B) take a bigger loss to stay competitive with price.

I can understand, and agree, that it's possible to cater some to the more mass (casual) market, but you don't place your bets on them with these kinds of investments.

Kovet said:
so with these rumored specs which console will be developed for natively and which will get the ports? and if it does work that way will the ports be of good quality? (assuming developers are somewhat competent)
Click to expand...

From what I understand, the platform that can produce results the fastest is usually the lead platform for development. So if the tools for the PS4 allow better productivity, I imagine most games will lead on that platform, or vice versa for Durango.
 
If ms bundles kinect then Sony has no choice but to bundle something too so it can compete. Multi plat games will look the same regardless.

Right now I'm more concerned about specs. I wish Sony would delay the console for 3d stacking. Imagine 8 gb of ram with high bandwidth and low latency, a newer gpu and a good enough CPU all for a cost effective price. They would compete with high end pcs that way for a few years and stay relevant for almost a decade. We don't need 2 next gen consoles at the same time. I don't mind buying Durango for a year, having fun there and switch to a more powerful console later. It's getting best of both worlds IMO.
 
JohnnySasaki86 said:
So i backtracked through the thread to see where this talk of downgraded bandwidth started, and I came to this post. It seems like you guys(thuway, ect) are treating this extremely vague post as fact that the bandwidth has gone down. Not only gone down, but gone down by nearly 50%! That seems pretty ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't see the information on the supposed bandwidth downgrade from anyone but Oversitter who is just speculating.

192 Gb/s has been a target for a very long time, I remember hearing it mentioned in the same rumor that the 1.84 Tflop number came from a long time ago. It seems we would have heard of a downgrade in the DF leak if that was happening. They seemed very confident in their info.
 
ALBOFIGHTER said:
If ms bundles kinect then Sony has no choice but to bundle something too so it can compete. Multi plat games will look the same regardless.

Right now I'm more concerned about specs. I wish Sony would delay the console for 3d stacking. Imagine 8 gb of ram with high bandwidth and low latency, a newer gpu and a good enough CPU all for a cost effective price. They would compete with high end pcs that way for a few years and stay relevant for almost a decade. We don't need 2 next gen consoles at the same time. I don't mind buying Durango for a year, having fun there and switch to a more powerful console later. It's getting best of both worlds IMO.
Click to expand...

The average consumer does not have the money for two brand new next gen consoles. Sony is doing the intelligent thing by not giving Microsoft too much of a head start.
 
KageMaru said:
The thing is, if these rumors are to be believed, it stands to reason that MS has invested more (financially) into Durango than Sony has for Orbis, making the hardware more expensive. IF this is the case, they would A) either need to price higher price or B) take a bigger loss to stay competitive with price.
Click to expand...


Maybe in terms of R&D. But I've read on B3D the PS4 looks to have a higher bill of materials.
So even if Durango cost more to design, it won't necessarily cost more at retail, or require MS to take more of a hit to match or undercut Sony's price. Lots of variables, we don't have enough information to know either way.
 
RoboPlato said:
Yeah, I don't see the information on the supposed bandwidth downgrade from anyone but Oversitter who is just speculating.

192 Gb/s has been a target for a very long time, I remember hearing it mentioned in the same rumor that the 1.84 Tflop number came from a long time ago. It seems we would have heard of a downgrade in the DF leak if that was happening. They seemed very confident in their info.
Click to expand...

Both stock pitcairn cards are allotted bandwidth of 153.6GB/sec. Assuming the shortfall to reach the target results in bandwidth of 176GB/sec, it will still be 22.4GB/sec (which coincidentally is identical to bandwidth for RSX) in surplus against the stock models.

Thus, I wanted to ask, does the bandwidth figure make accommodation for both GPU and CPU? I remember reading that the CPU in PS4 may require around 12GB/sec. So does that mean an effective bandwidth of 176-12= 164GB/sec for GPU?

Pardon my limitations when it comes to technicality of these things. But I am curious to learn about it.
 
JohnnySasaki86 said:
Oh ok. Do u think u could link me that post? I was seeing people mention ~140gb/s and others saying it would end up being close to Durango.
Click to expand...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46848346&postcount=304


Death Dealer said:
Maybe in terms of R&D. But I've read on B3D the PS4 looks to have a higher bill of materials.
.
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You can safely ignore Rangers, he is making crap up. No one with any knowledge knows the BOM for either machine, no one knows what is in the box yet.
 
Ram is fairly cheap. Why can't we have 8GB of RAM in the final product if they have it in the dev kit? I understand it's for leeway with coding and stuff, but really, what's wrong with the extra physical memory? Should be cheap and it can't do anything but help, right?
 
Death Dealer said:
Maybe in terms of R&D. But I've read on B3D the PS4 looks to have a higher bill of materials.
So even if Durango cost more to design, it won't necessarily cost more at retail, or require MS to take more of a hit to match or undercut Sony's price. Lots of variables, we don't have enough information to know either way.
Click to expand...

Not sure who at B3D has said that but if Durango has more custom design and includes Kinect in every SKU, it makes sense that BoM would be higher for that system.

Thug Waffle said:
Ram is fairly cheap. Why can't we have 8GB of RAM in the final product if they have it in the dev kit? I understand it's for leeway with coding and stuff, but really, what's wrong with the extra physical memory? Should be cheap and it can't do anything but help, right?
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Dev kits aren't sold at a loss, in fact they are sold for thousands of dollors, while a retail unit is sold at a loss. Regardless of how cheap RAM may or may not be, it'll add a significant cost to the retail unit.
 
Thug Waffle said:
Ram is fairly cheap. Why can't we have 8GB of RAM in the final product if they have it in the dev kit? I understand it's for leeway with coding and stuff, but really, what's wrong with the extra physical memory? Should be cheap and it can't do anything but help, right?
Click to expand...

Even if it's only a couple buck for the RAM itself that cost has to be multiplied out by the millions of systems they produce, it adds board complexity which makes manufacturing more expensive and less reliable, and they RAM controllers would need to be redone. It would cost Sony hundreds of millions. They seem to have been aiming for a smaller pool of high bandwidth RAM while Microsoft is aiming for a large pool of slower bandwidth RAM.
 
Thug Waffle said:
Ram is fairly cheap. Why can't we have 8GB of RAM in the final product if they have it in the dev kit? I understand it's for leeway with coding and stuff, but really, what's wrong with the extra physical memory? Should be cheap and it can't do anything but help, right?
Click to expand...

GDDR5 is fairly cheap? Interesting.
 
Thug Waffle said:
Ram is fairly cheap. Why can't we have 8GB of RAM in the final product if they have it in the dev kit?
Click to expand...

My guess has always been that they see it at a larger scale. Sure more expensive ram in a handful of devkits might not be much but say you use $25 more expensive ram and plan you sell 10 million units within X years and you got a difference of a quarter of a billion dollars in manufacturing cost.

edit : beatenuru
 
Quick GDDR5 Question: I heard that clamshell designs are going to be ready soon and that they'll likely be a bit cooler, cheaper, and have improved latency. Is this true and is it likely Orbis will use that?
 
I'm a little nervous of both MS and Sony. I've said it before that IMO the market can not support 2 console launches at the same time like that. And according to their business plans NEITHER can wait months and give the other a head start. I can't see consumers supporting one without the other getting the shaft.





SO all I'm saying is.....Somebody is getting FUCKED UP this holiday season.
 
Gorillaz said:
I'm a little nervous of both MS and Sony. I've said it before that IMO the market can not support 2 console launches at the same time like that. And according to their business plans NEITHER can wait months and give the other a head start. I can't see consumers supporting one without the other getting the shaft.





SO all I'm saying is.....Somebody is getting FUCKED UP this holiday season.
Click to expand...

It'll come down to games. More specifically, exclusive games.
 
nib95 said:
The average consumer does not have the money for two brand new next gen consoles. Sony is doing the intelligent thing by not giving Microsoft too much of a head start.
Click to expand...
I would sell the Xbox to get ps4 just as I did this gen. Sony proved already that they can release late and still have world market share as long as costumes get what they want.

We want a powerful console. We all know Sony is interested in stacking technology but if they rush their system then imagine if yields are bad, they would have to downgrade last minute. They also lost bc and no, cloud gaming is not a solution. They need to maintain their brand image.

Now here comes Durango, a very costumed and efficient console, probably will have amazing os and features. A DVR. It has backwards compatibility as far as the rumours go and it will have kinect 2.0.

If Sony wants to compete with that then they have to produce something worthwhile or most will buy the better product. Hopefully in the end everyone gets a strong and versatile console as it should be.
 
Gorillaz said:
I'm a little nervous of both MS and Sony. I've said it before that IMO the market can not support 2 console launches at the same time like that. And according to their business plans NEITHER can wait months and give the other a head start. I can't see consumers supporting one without the other getting the shaft.





SO all I'm saying is.....Somebody is getting FUCKED UP this holiday season.
Click to expand...

Console launches only really immediately sell to the core and both parties have big install bases with hardcore fans. They'll be fine.
 
Kagari said:
It'll come down to games. More specifically, exclusive games.
Click to expand...

You lie. Consoles are all about social networking, multitasking between that and music and movies (netflix and bluray), downloading items off of the internet etc. And finally, it may also play games.
 
ALBOFIGHTER said:
I would sell the Xbox to get ps4 just as I did this gen. Sony proved already that they can release late and still have world market share as long as costumes get what they want.

We want a powerful console. We all know Sony is interested in stacking technology but if they rush their system then imagine if yields are bad, they would have to downgrade last minute. They also lost bc and no, cloud gaming is not a solution. They need to maintain their brand image.

Now here comes Durango, a very costumed and efficient console, probably will have amazing os and features. A DVR. It has backwards compatibility as far as the rumours go and it will have kinect 2.0.

If Sony wants to compete with that then they have to produce something worthwhile or most will buy the better product. Hopefully in the end everyone gets a strong and versatile console as it should be.
Click to expand...

The average consumer is also not going to sell one console to buy the other. I get where you're coming from, but we have to be realistic here. That initial install base and time frame advantage Microsoft had with the 360 did the world of good. I don't think Sony will want to risk losing too much market share from the get go this time. Worse still if Durango is more affordable to buy than Orbis.
 
Kagari said:
It'll come down to games. More specifically, exclusive games.
Click to expand...

RoboPlato said:
Console launches only really immediately sell to the core and both parties have big install bases with hardcore fans. They'll be fine.
Click to expand...

The problem is that it's not 2005/6 anymore. Exclusives will sale but enough? Are the consumers mentally ready for next gen? when I hear from my friends stuff like "didn't they just come out a few years ago, why a new one so quick?" type of comments.

Hardcore sets up the foundation but will it be enough this time?
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
There should be some big ones.


My source was willing to commit to a number on the bandwidth:
176 Gb/S

Essentially 3GB of data per frame. Pretty crazy people
Click to expand...

Give me pretzels for nailing the number.

Also if anyone can help me:

i-Lo said:
Both stock pitcairn cards are allotted bandwidth of 153.6GB/sec. Assuming the shortfall to reach the target results in bandwidth of 176GB/sec, it will still be 22.4GB/sec (which coincidentally is identical to bandwidth for RSX) in surplus against the stock models.

Thus, I wanted to ask, does the bandwidth figure make accommodation for both GPU and CPU? I remember reading that the CPU in PS4 may require around 12GB/sec. So does that mean an effective bandwidth of 176-12= 164GB/sec for GPU?

Pardon my limitations when it comes to technicality of these things. But I am curious to learn about it.
Click to expand...

Gorillaz said:
The problem is that it's not 2005/6 anymore. Exclusives will sale but enough? Are the consumers mentally ready for next gen? when I hear from my friends stuff like "didn't they just come out a few years ago, why a new one so quick?" type of comments.

Hardcore sets up the foundation but will it be enough this time?
Click to expand...

Kind of sounds like the people who bought PS2 when PS3 was about to come out. I am sure people are ready for next generation.
 
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