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[Revven]

The thing is Smash got big enough, early enough that it didn't need the FGC, so it developed its own culture which is separate from the FGC. Add to that being on a Nintendo console and you get a situation where there is very little overlap between the communities.

It's not jut that, though. There's always been this misconception from the Smash side because of the very vocal minority of the FGC saying stuff like, "ooh smash is bad" or "smash isn't a real fighting game" or "smash is blah blah blah" etc. painting the people who play it as outcasts. And what I'm saying about that is long before the FGC got really big.

Now that it's really big and figureheads are being made because of twitch streaming you can now know who matters when it comes to what they're saying. The people who say all those things aren't speaking for someone like UltraDavid or Justin Wong like people would think way back when.

The more you keep thinking the communities can't come together, the more likely it is they won't. If you give them the right push and support it, it'll all come together just fine.

 

[APZonerunner]

I think the one thing that really stands against Melee now in terms of achieving penetration in the FGC is just how damn ancient it is. That wouldn't even be that bad if it wasn't for the fact that there's even a newer game out that the community just don't like.

If the next game isn't entirely competition unfriendly - and one would hope with Tekken people involved it won't be - I think the Smash community will have a real shot at getting involved with the FGC again, and they'll have to really consider the game for EVO.

 

[Revven]

If the next game isn't entirely competition unfriendly - and one would hope with Tekken people involved it won't be - I think the Smash community will have a real shot at getting involved with the FGC again, and they'll have to really consider the game for EVO.

Yeah, that really is the only last barrier. However, getting Melee into Evo also helps make Bandai-Namco games more aware of the Smash competitive scene and maybe influence Sakurai to not be so adamant towards the scene that's developed since the first Smash game. Maybe.

A newer game would be easier, but yeah... it'd have to be not so adamant towards competition gameplay-wise like Brawl was.

 

[APZonerunner]

Yeah, that really is the only last barrier. However, getting Melee into Evo also helps make Bandai-Namco games more aware of the Smash competitive scene and maybe influence Sakurai to not be so adamant towards the scene that's developed since the first Smash game. Maybe.

A newer game would be easier, but yeah... it'd have to be not so adamant towards competition gameplay-wise like Brawl was.

There's no way that Nintendo and Sakurai aren't aware of the scene, the existence of Project M etcetera. If it's going to impact on the development of the next game, it already would have.

I actually think, to be honest, that may have influenced the decision to partner with Namco. Tekken and SC are both very successful in having a great deal of depth but also being shallow enough that casuals are happy to jump in and have a blast with it. The Wii U version of TTT2 takes that even further, as it has all the depth of the other versions but all that crazy stupid Nintendo stuff mixed in. I do imagine the next Smash will be like that.

 

[cj_iwakura]

If BlazBlue makes it, I'll go to EVO this year, but I know that's impossible.
(It's the only game I feel I'm competitive-level good at.)

 

[Kokonoe]

Hopefully they'll have a HD remake or HD rerelease of Melee to give us time before the next Smash.

 

[partyphone]

I'm rooting for Melee just because it will be a hilarious disaster.

especially if EVO sets rules that piss off the smash community.

 

[darkblade77]

If BlazBlue makes it, I'll go to EVO this year, but I know that's impossible.
(It's the only game I feel I'm competitive-level good at.)

I'm sure a side tournament is guaranteed, and if BBCP comes out before July on consoles, it'll probably be a pretty big side tournament.

 

[APZonerunner]

I'm rooting for Melee just because it will be a hilarious disaster.

especially if EVO sets rules that piss off the smash community.

They've said that the community can set the rules whatever game makes it, as they paid for it to get in. So that at least won't be a problem. There was a tweet from Mr Wizard which said something like "I had my year with items, do what you want"

I actually think Melee would do pretty well and better than SG both on-stream and at Evo itself, but the timing just may not be right for that community, and SG is a smart game and a far more traditional one for Evo. Whatever wins is a win for Evo and the community in the end; it's come down to a good two.

 

[TheChits]

I really hope that they include both games somehow. It is awesome that so much money has been donated

 

[Dachande]

Donated $25 to Skullgirls to get it up to an even $21,600. Lovely even numbers... mmmm...

Honestly, at this point, the best thing to happen would be for Evo to let both games in. As much as I really don't enjoy Smash, it's such a ridiculous amount of money from a good cause from these two in particular that it only seems fair.

 

[alstein]

It's not jut that, though. There's always been this misconception from the Smash side because of the very vocal minority of the FGC saying stuff like, "ooh smash is bad" or "smash isn't a real fighting game" or "smash is blah blah blah" etc. painting the people who play it as outcasts. And what I'm saying about that is long before the FGC got really big.

Now that it's really big and figureheads are being made because of twitch streaming you can now know who matters when it comes to what they're saying. The people who say all those things aren't speaking for someone like UltraDavid or Justin Wong like people would think way back when.

The more you keep thinking the communities can't come together, the more likely it is they won't. If you give them the right push and support it, it'll all come together just fine.

Yeah, I don't blame towards any particular side- if anything, I put most of the blame on the EVO staff for changing the rules on Smash without consulting the community,would they have done that for any other game, outside of not having enough time reasons? Would they have forced SF folks to play on 60 second timers, or Tekken folks to play with block damage?

 

[Codeblue]

I figured you were just joking.

And now you've explained the joke, ruining it forever.

They forced my hand when they started talking about the exact level of math skills you would need to play Pokemon.

For reference: It's Calc II at least.

 

[FSLink]

Yeah, I don't blame towards any particular side- if anything, I put most of the blame on the EVO staff for changing the rules on Smash without consulting the community,would they have done that for any other game, outside of not having enough time reasons? Would they have forced SF folks to play on 60 second timers, or Tekken folks to play with block damage?

Well this analogy isn't perfect considering that the 60 second timer and block damage isn't the default settings.
But I agree that it was kind of silly to allow items on. Yes it's fun and chaotic, but the community HAS tried to have items in a competitive setting before numerous times.

 

[Professor Beef]

I think the one thing that really stands against Melee now in terms of achieving penetration in the FGC is just how damn ancient it is.

Hasn't stopped ST and Third Strike.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

ST and 3S have already penetrated Beef you know that.

 

[PezDispenser]

There's no way that Nintendo and Sakurai aren't aware of the scene, the existence of Project M etcetera. If it's going to impact on the development of the next game, it already would have.

I actually think, to be honest, that may have influenced the decision to partner with Namco. Tekken and SC are both very successful in having a great deal of depth but also being shallow enough that casuals are happy to jump in and have a blast with it. The Wii U version of TTT2 takes that even further, as it has all the depth of the other versions but all that crazy stupid Nintendo stuff mixed in. I do imagine the next Smash will be like that.

It would seem like the Namco partnership would be a good thing for the next Smash, but Sakurai is still in the director's chair, and he's revealed in countless interviews that he is VERY against the competitive scene, and actually designed Brawl to be as anti-competitive as he possibly could (hence why the entire Melee scene hated it).

This is an important fact that all the people who claim we have to "unite behind the newest game" or "just wait for Smash U" are seriously overlooking. They're not gonna make another "real" Smash game, not one that's worthy of EVO. The main goal of the game's director is to make sure that it wouldn't be!

Personally, I would love to see a new, *good* Smash game. I keep waiting for some developer to notice what made Melee so competitively great and make their own , updated, rebalanced version of it, but unfortunately every Smash clone turns out to be as dumbed-down as Brawl or worse.

I think that unfortunately, very few people have actually taken notice of what exactly gives melee the crazy amount of depth that it has, because it's intentionally hidden beneath the surface, unlike most fighting games where it's pretty much the whole point. To rally behind Brawl or a newer Smash incarnation would be to give up on the genius mechanics that gave melee 12 years of staying power and a constantly evolving metagame.

Long story short, we'd love to rally behind a new Smash game, but it would need to have the depth and competitive viability that melee set the bar for, and unfortunately, I don't think any developer, especially Nintendo, is bringing out a game like that anytime soon.

 

[Dachande]

It would seem like the Namco partnership would be a good thing for the next Smash, but Sakurai is still in the director's chair, and he's revealed in countless interviews that he is VERY against the competitive scene, and actually designed Brawl to be as anti-competitive as he possibly could (hence why the entire Melee scene hated it).

This is pretty fascinating, tbh. Has anyone got any links to interviews where he goes into his reasoning behind this? It's the exact opposite of what I'd expect from someone in his position.

 

[FSLink]

Personally, I would love to see a new, *good* Smash game. I keep waiting for some developer to notice what made Melee so competitively great and make their own , updated, rebalanced version of it, but unfortunately every Smash clone turns out to be as dumbed-down as Brawl or worse.

Unfortunately it seems our only hopes are that Sakurai takes Namco Bandai's input and they mention stuff to make it more competitive or Project M takes off when it's fully released.

 

[PezDispenser]

This is pretty fascinating, tbh. Has anyone got any links to interviews where he goes into his reasoning behind this? It's the exact opposite of what I'd expect from someone in his position.

Here's one from a long time ago:


"An example: a game is built with such depth that it brings to a player's mind memories of defeat. As a game designer, I can't ignore this possibility. If, in a multiplayer fighting game, only the winner feels good and the other challengers get no such feeling, then there is really no joy at all. No matter how people play, I want everyone to be happy! Is this asking for too much?"
http://www.n-sider.com/contentview.php?contentid=443

Yes, you read that correctly... the reason Sakurai is against competition in his games is because it might make some hypothetical loser feel a negative emotion!

Actually this quote came out not too long after melee was released, and it would seem that a good deal of the depth was actually accidental.

It reminds me of how in SF2, combos were technically a "glitch" at first.

Imagine if, instead of embracing the combo, Capcom patched that shit in the next version because some imaginary loser might have his feelings hurt if he ended up getting combo'd. Imagine that for 12 years.

That's what it's like to be a Melee player.

 

[Revven]

Also don't forget about the infamous quote after he released Brawl where Sakurai specifically stated he wouldn't create another game like Melee because "it was simply too difficult".

I never once heard, during Melee's lifespan of being out as a game, as being difficult to pick up and play. It's only difficult when you actually want to take it as a serious competitive game... and I ask, what's wrong with that? All serious competitive games take a good amount of time and effort to be really good in, which can be seen as difficult.

I'd grab the quotes and sources but I'm really lazy to find it. There were also other interviews during the time Brawl was being developed, I think, you can find where he states other really ludicrous thoughts about winning vs losing or whatever.

I really feel like he took the whole "casualizing" aspect Nintendo was going for in 2006-2008 too far. Way too far.

Also I guess if you want to know what people really thought of that joke tweet Ravidrath made this post sums up the main thing about what was wrong with it. Just an aside off topic thing, don't really want to bring it back up but yeh etc. etc.

 

[Hitokage]

Heh, statements to the effect of "if only Sakurai knew" make me chuckle. Be grateful that he isn't like TTC's Henk Rogers where he knows but wants you to fuck off or Arika's Mihara where he cares but doesn't want Americans playing his games at all.

 

[Kokonoe]

Heh, statements to the effect of "if only Sakurai knew" make me chuckle. Be grateful that he isn't like TTC's Henk Rogers where he knows but wants you to fuck off or Arika's Mihara where he cares but doesn't want Americans playing his games at all.

Kinda odd you're saying be thankful he isn't against his fans over something like that.

 

[Hitokage]

Kinda odd you're saying be thankful he isn't against his fans over something like that.

Whoops, that's not really the expression I wanted. I meant to say that Sakurai probably does know but doesn't care, given how it's not impossible looking at other examples.

 

[APZonerunner]

It would seem like the Namco partnership would be a good thing for the next Smash, but Sakurai is still in the director's chair, and he's revealed in countless interviews that he is VERY against the competitive scene, and actually designed Brawl to be as anti-competitive as he possibly could (hence why the entire Melee scene hated it).

This is an important fact that all the people who claim we have to "unite behind the newest game" or "just wait for Smash U" are seriously overlooking. They're not gonna make another "real" Smash game, not one that's worthy of EVO. The main goal of the game's director is to make sure that it wouldn't be!

Personally, I would love to see a new, *good* Smash game. I keep waiting for some developer to notice what made Melee so competitively great and make their own , updated, rebalanced version of it, but unfortunately every Smash clone turns out to be as dumbed-down as Brawl or worse.

I think that unfortunately, very few people have actually taken notice of what exactly gives melee the crazy amount of depth that it has, because it's intentionally hidden beneath the surface, unlike most fighting games where it's pretty much the whole point. To rally behind Brawl or a newer Smash incarnation would be to give up on the genius mechanics that gave melee 12 years of staying power and a constantly evolving metagame.

Long story short, we'd love to rally behind a new Smash game, but it would need to have the depth and competitive viability that melee set the bar for, and unfortunately, I don't think any developer, especially Nintendo, is bringing out a game like that anytime soon.

Things change. What we've got now is a Nintendo clearly lusting after the 'core' gamer group in a way they never did on the Wii, and Sakurai's design philosophy may well switch to match that. On top of that, Brawl development was Brawl development, but everyone was so fucking hyped (remember that thread?!) nobody was talking about the game's competitive viability. Going into this development he can easily see Brawl was more heavily criticised than Melee both by critics and fans (even though it sold a lot better) and things like Project M are things they must be aware of and make a very powerful argument that may well be listened to. Sakurai won't abandon Smash being casual-friendly, but he may well decide to build in more depth to sate that audience. I don't think there's any point making any assumptions as far as the next Smash goes until it's playable. It really is a complete unknown.

 

[Azure J]

It reminds me of how in SF2, combos were technically a "glitch" at first.

Imagine if, instead of embracing the combo, Capcom patched that shit in the next version because some imaginary loser might have his feelings hurt if he ended up getting combo'd. Imagine that for 12 years.

That's what it's like to be a Melee player.

This is such a good post, I'm bookmarking it for future reference in Smash related posts on the Melee/Brawl conundrum.

 

[Hitokage]

To be specific, special cancelling was a glitch. Linking has been around since frame advantage existed.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Wavedashing is a glitch because I don't have a better vocabulary to describe it and I lose when it's used against me.

 

[PezDispenser]

To be specific, special cancelling was a glitch. Linking has been around since frame advantage existed.

According to Wikipedia:

"Combos were a design accident; lead producer Noritaka Funamizu noticed that extra strikes were possible during a bug check on the car-smashing bonus stage. He thought that the timing required was too difficult to make it a useful game feature, but left it in as a hidden one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_(video_gaming)#History

They call it a "design accident," which is pretty much what wavedashing is IMO, the only difference being that I don't think the melee developers knew about wavedashing when they released the game.

 

[Hitokage]

I'm referring to what is actually going on, and there are different kinds of combos.

 

[PezDispenser]

I'm referring to what is actually going on, and there are different kinds of combos.

Yes, I know the difference between a link and a special cancel, thank you for assuming otherwise.

 

[Hitokage]

Yes, I know the difference between a link and a special cancel, thank you for assuming otherwise.

Then what was the point of your post?

 

[PezDispenser]

Then what was the point of your post?

To show that special cancels were not the only technique that originated from developer oversight only to end up becoming a staple, pro-competitive mechanic, not unlike many Melee mechanics.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Links aren't a developer oversight though.

 

[PezDispenser]

Links aren't a developer oversight though.

"While I was making a bug check during the car bonus stage… I noticed something strange, curious. I taped the sequence and we saw that during the punch timing, it was possible to add a second hit and so on. I thought this was something impossible to make useful inside a game, as the timing balance was so hard to catch. So we decided to leave the feature as a hidden one. The most interesting thing is that this became the base for future titles. Later we were able to make the timing more comfortable and the combo into a real feature. In SFII we thought if you got the perfect timing you could place several hits, up to four I think. Then we managed to place eight! A bug? Maybe."
—Noritaka Funamizu, [4]

Since he makes no mention of canceling any animations and stresses the difficult timing, it sounds to me like he's talking about links here. And seeing as he clearly noticed the mechanic and intentionally chose to leave it in, oversight might not have been the best word, but I was trying to highlight the fact that it was not an intentional part of the game's mechanics; it was not consciously planned or programmed in, it was discovered.

 

[udivision]

They call it a "design accident," which is pretty much what wavedashing is IMO, the only difference being that I don't think the melee developers knew about wavedashing when they released the game.

Actually, they did, surprise-surprise.

Nintendo Power: This is one that a lot of hardcore Smash Bros. fans have long wondered about. Was the ablility to "Wavedash" in Melee intentional or a glitch?

Sakurai: Of course, we noticed that you could do that during the development period. With Super Smash Bros. Brawl, it wasn't a matter of, "OK, do we leave it in or do we take it out?"
We really just wanted this game, again, to appeal to and be played by gamers of all different levels. We felt that there was a growing gap between beginners and advanced players, and taking that out helps to level the playing field. It wasn't a big priority or anything, but when we were building the game around the idea of making it fair for everybody, it just made sense to take it out. And it also goes back to wanting to make something different from Melee and giving players the opportunity to find new things to enjoy.

 

[Hitokage]

"While I was making a bug check during the car bonus stage… I noticed something strange, curious. I taped the sequence and we saw that during the punch timing, it was possible to add a second hit and so on. I thought this was something impossible to make useful inside a game, as the timing balance was so hard to catch. So we decided to leave the feature as a hidden one. The most interesting thing is that this became the base for future titles. Later we were able to make the timing more comfortable and the combo into a real feature. In SFII we thought if you got the perfect timing you could place several hits, up to four I think. Then we managed to place eight! A bug? Maybe."
—Noritaka Funamizu, [4]

Since he makes no mention of canceling any animations and stresses the difficult timing, it sounds to me like he's talking about links here. And seeing as he clearly noticed the mechanic and intentionally chose to leave it in, oversight might not have been the best word, but I was trying to highlight the fact that it was not an intentional part of the game's mechanics; it was not consciously planned or programmed in, it was discovered.

Ok, that's chain cancelling.

 

[kirblar]

Here's one from a long time ago:


"An example: a game is built with such depth that it brings to a player's mind memories of defeat. As a game designer, I can't ignore this possibility. If, in a multiplayer fighting game, only the winner feels good and the other challengers get no such feeling, then there is really no joy at all. No matter how people play, I want everyone to be happy! Is this asking for too much?"
http://www.n-sider.com/contentview.php?contentid=443

Yes, you read that correctly... the reason Sakurai is against competition in his games is because it might make some hypothetical loser feel a negative emotion!

Actually this quote came out not too long after melee was released, and it would seem that a good deal of the depth was actually accidental.

It reminds me of how in SF2, combos were technically a "glitch" at first.

Imagine if, instead of embracing the combo, Capcom patched that shit in the next version because some imaginary loser might have his feelings hurt if he ended up getting combo'd. Imagine that for 12 years.

That's what it's like to be a Melee player.

If the better player wins every time, then the loser will not keep playing.

 

[toddhunter]

If the better player wins every time, then the loser will not keep playing.

Which isn't very good if you are trying to make a great party game.

I'm not going to get into the argument that smash isn't actually a fighting game, but I think there is a strong case to say it isn't necessarily meant to be and wont be in the future.

 

[Kokonoe]

Wavedashing is a glitch because I don't have a better vocabulary to describe it and I lose when it's used against me.

I like the actual "wavedashing" and think it's great, but the wavedashing glitch I don't care for and never use it. I feel it kinda cheapens the experience, but not that it's 'cheap'. If it was patched in a HD rerelease I wouldn't have any qualms over that.

 

[Hitokage]

Which isn't very good if you are trying to make a great party game.

As opposed to Mario Party where everyone gets angry and doesn't want to play after long.

 

[Kokonoe]

As opposed to Mario Party where everyone gets angry and doesn't want to play after long.

That would be me, but I've only played it by myself. Can't stand those games.

 

[kirblar]

Which isn't very good if you are trying to make a great party game.

I'm not going to get into the argument that smash isn't actually a fighting game, but I think there is a strong case to say it isn't necessarily meant to be and wont be in the future.

The problem is that the evolution of the competitive scene turned competitive Smash into a game that doesn't bear much resemblance to the game you play when you pop in the disc for the first time.

Understandably so, because of the items issues in Melee, but the scene's refusal to deviate from "how it's always been" when approaching new releases has been a problem.

 

[Rorschach]

As opposed to Mario Party where everyone gets angry and doesn't want to play after long.

We never got angry at MP. We usually ended up just being bored with it. Just like most board games.

 

[SolarPowered]

The problem is that the evolution of the competitive scene turned competitiveMelee into a game that doesn't bear much resemblance to the game you play when you pop in the disc for the first time

Maybe Sakurai shouldn't have allowed people to tweak the game to play however they want.

Edit: It's ironic that he is so against the tournament scene and the awesome breadth of Melee. It's not an uncommon thing to hear how a great game will make a successor's future much brighter from a sales perspective. Melee managed to be fantastic on both ends of the spectrum and Brawl enjoyed the benefits of a pleased fanbase(10+ million sales). Sakurai's choice was to dismiss one half and I wonder how that will impact Smash 4's reception.

Just thinking out loud...

 

[Tan]

The problem is that the evolution of the competitive scene turned competitiveMelee into a game that doesn't bear much resemblance to the game you play when you pop in the disc for the first time

I think I feel this way about every competitive game. And it's kind of awesome.

 

[Kokonoe]

I think it's a nice mix to have options, the competitive scene wants the random variables gone and they have the option to get rid of em, and it makes the most sense to get rid of those variables so it's an even playing ground. Then you have the random variables for those who just want to have fun and do crazy random stuff.

 

[kirblar]

Maybe Sakurai shouldn't have allowed people to tweak the game to play however they want.

Had they been able to turn off exploding boxes in Melee we might have a very different looking competitive scene.

Mechanics that punish you for trying to win (tripping falls into this category) are just miserable.

Edit: It's ironic that he is so against the tournament scene and the awesome breadth of Melee. It's not an uncommon thing to hear how a great game will make a successor's future much brighter from a sales perspective. Melee managed to be fantastic on both ends of the spectrum and Brawl enjoyed the benefits of a pleased fanbase(10+ million sales). Sakurai's choice was to dismiss one half and I wonder how that will impact Smash 4's reception.

The hardcore scene thinks they're much more important than they actually are.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Which isn't very good if you are trying to make a great party game.

I'm not going to get into the argument that smash isn't actually a fighting game, but I think there is a strong case to say it isn't necessarily meant to be and wont be in the future.

Sakurai has go on record saying how he will not make another game like Melee.

 

[Kokonoe]

Maybe Sakurai shouldn't have allowed people to tweak the game to play however they want.

Edit: It's ironic that he is so against the tournament scene and the awesome breadth of Melee. It's not an uncommon thing to hear how a great game will make a successor's future much brighter from a sales perspective. Melee managed to be fantastic on both ends of the spectrum and Brawl enjoyed the benefits of a pleased fanbase(10+ million sales). Sakurai's choice was to dismiss one half and I wonder how that will impact Smash 4's reception.

Just thinking out loud...

And the thing is, the game sold that much on Gamecube which says something.