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[LukasTaves]

I swear, if i had not played the games you are discussing and went by these claims i would believe the gap between PS3 exclusives and 360 ones would be bigger then wii -> 360...

Seriously, where do you see all that difference?

Not. Even. Close. When Gears matches the poly counts and texture data/quality of UC3 at a solid 30fps, then adds smooth animations, OMB, and then MLAA, we can talk.

U3 does not have MLAA and gears 3 does have OMB.

The poly counts of either series are nothing to write home about. Both are a low poly galore for the scenery and it's pretty blatantly if you look for it.

 

[Jack_AG]

To much wishful thinking Jack_AG.

Let me have my wishful thinking, damn you!

I know it is - but I still believe that PSN content is too much money for them to ignore.

If there is no BC - then I can't justify spending money on anymore PSN content knowing that when the hardware breaks - I'm screwed. Might as well just stick with disk-based games and PC if this is the future we are looking at.

Building complete online catalogs that do not transfer over sounds like bad business, to me. Then again, I'm not a businessman so what do I know? I'm just a consumer who looks at other technologies and sees BC so I would assume a giant like Sony would follow suit - because it's good business (repeat the last few sentences for Zoolander style repetition BOOM!)

 

[Perkel]

That makes me way more excited than before (and I was pretty excited then). I thought the SPEs were more powerful than that. That gives me two thoughts

1) maybe, just maybe, they could pull off BC with the 4CUs acting as surrogate SPEs

2) PS3 has a relatively shitty GPU, but smart developers could use CELL to do a bunch of pre and post-processing which transformed what the GPU could manage on its own. And that was with 150 GFLOPs.

Now you have a very capable GPU and, if you chose to, 400GFLOPs of SPE-like compute power which could do similar tasks.

This could push out some amazing stuff I think.

1) 128 bit problem mentioned already. Those CU operate on 64bit. PS3 Cell SPE were 128bit. I don't have knowledge how something like this can be emulated since i am no dev or even deep tech guy.
2) This 4CU will be used mostly like SPE were on animations, physic etc. SPE were hard to use and developers struggled to use them and most of the time they used it to help shitty GPU run well. Those 4CU will also be a lot easier to access and work with.

As i stated before for me imo those 4CU are essentially dedicated physic hardware which i always dreamed of (since ageia downfall)

 

[phosphor112]

That makes me way more excited than before (and I was pretty excited then). I thought the SPEs were more powerful than that. That gives me two thoughts

1) maybe, just maybe, they could pull off BC with the 4CUs acting as surrogate SPEs

2) PS3 has a relatively shitty GPU, but smart developers could use CELL to do a bunch of pre and post-processing which transformed what the GPU could manage on its own. And that was with 150 GFLOPs.

Now you have a very capable GPU and, if you chose to, 400GFLOPs of SPE-like compute power which could do similar tasks.

This could push out some amazing stuff I think.

Those SPE's are SIMD processors. They aren't as high performing for single and double performance but their parallel processing for these simple operations is pretty much unmatched. Those CU's would be better for other functions overall though.

The SPEs are probably much less efficient than the GCN CUs. Thats just my guess tho.

Other way around. SPE's are very inefficient if you don't write for them, but if you do, they'll "easily" hit their performance mark. Someone did a paper, and even when writing basic code, it still outperformed other SIMD processors by 4 times. Writing the code to work for the cell increased that by several times.

 

[Ashes]

I've already spilled some details in the few next-gen threads, including differences in RAM access between the 360 and Durango. I've also specified that one of the pieces of special hardware augmenting the GPU is the depth color block. I've talked a little bit about the memory move engines and surface compression. I've been told a number of things I've been explicitly asked not to share, and I don't want to get anybody fired.

So depth colour block. Gotcha. I haven't heard this before... We'll latch on to this, and see what's what. Good luck.

 

[Marco1]

Loving the sound of PS4 but can't wait to see the HW and controller design.
I hope Sony pull through with PS4 because I hate the sound of a MS only future.

 

[Haggis]

Well I didn't realize Gaf was so immature with all this crazy fanboy talk. I signed over 9 months only to get my posting rights only a couple of weeks ago ago to take part in serious discussions on my favorite hobby and every day I see the same post after post of people trying to justify their console of choice.

Why do people try to compare exclusives any how, it's impossible. The only way is 3rd party games and the PS3 and 360 are a wash or close enough to even care.

 

[kitch9]

Viva Piniata looks better than anything on PS3.

I'm going to stop reading this thread, the drain on my brain cells is too much.

 

[Reiko]

Why do people try to compare exclusives any how, it's impossible. The only way is 3rd party games and the PS3 and 360 are a wash or close enough to even care.

That's what I was trying to say.

Even on their best efforts...

You could not get parity with a SNES/Genesis game.
A Dreamcast/PS2 game.
A Xbox/PS2 game.
A GC/PS2 game.
A Saturn/PS1 game.

This is the only gen where we could have something like that because both of the consoles were close in power.

 

[AgentP]

That's your prerogative. I've been told by multiple sources I trust that there's still a bit of Orbis info yet to be determined, and quite a bit of Durango info that hasn't surfaced. Durango's CPU in particular is appreciably different than Orbis.

You can believe me, or you can not believe me. I've said for months that the people who are full of shit and the people who called it right will be exposed one way or the other sooner, rather than later. And when my understanding of things have changed (see: hardware threads in Durango's CPU) I've said as much.

The first part is accurate, the second part is not. Lots of people can keep a secret. Lots of people don't want to.

I just assume every "insider" here is full of shit, it makes life easier. If you do have any inside info, it is suspect. You have been off quite a bit according to your post history. So either your source sucks, or is getting the info at the same time as the rest of the public leaks.

Just earlier this month your were surprised Durango had DDR, you said the number of cores was between 8-16 and I'm sure there is more. Did you predict the Orbis 12+4 CU leak in any way? If you are just nebulous info after public leaks, what good is it?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46436805&postcount=2385

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46238500&postcount=1546

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=46168126

Even if there are people with some valid inside info, they are not going to have inside info for both MS and Sony, best case is they have dev kits for both systems, which does not tell them about final hardware and the BOM.

 

[phosphor112]

I'm going to stop reading this thread, the drain on my brain cells is too much.

YOU FANBOY!

 

[Proxy]

So what is your take on this now:

a) Orbis = Durango
b) Orbis > Durango
c) Durango > Orbis

?

C) $750,000 > Orbis

 

[Metalmurphy]

to be fair, metalmurphy was the one who started this. i disagree with reiko, but please just stop everyone. we already had 16gb of ram, people talking absolute nonsense about prices and performance, we really don't need this stuff.

I started it? I replied to this

"There's is nothing I've seen on both exclusives that couldn't be replicated on the other."

Were we all just supposed to sit tight and agree with that false statement?

Let me help.

Forza New York

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kTx60Tn3uY

GT4 New York

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PfWLtgXLB8

You are only helping my case here.

 

[Marco1]

If I believed the hype between the PS3 and 360 before launch I would have thought the PS3 would out-perform 360 in every field but we know how that turned out.
So I will give orbis and durango a year to see what performs the best but we all know it's the in the third party games where that contest is won.

 

[aegies]

I just assume every "insider" here is full of shit, it makes life easier. If you do have any inside info, it is suspect. You have been off quite a bit according to your post history. So either your source sucks, or is getting the info at the same time as the rest of the public leaks.

Just earlier this month your were surprised Durango had DDR, you said the number of cores was between 8-16 and I'm sure there is more. Did you predict the Orbis 12+4 CU leak in any way? If you are just nebulous info after public leaks, what good is it?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46436805&postcount=2385

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46238500&postcount=1546

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=46168126

Even if there are people with some valid inside info, they are not going to have inside info for both MS and Sony, best case is they have dev kits for both systems, which does not tell them about final hardware and the BOM.

No, I said that I worried that the DDR rumor was true. I also went out of my way to correct myself on the core/logical processor thing. I didn't predict the 12/4 CU split, because I didn't know. All I'd heard was raw TF performance.

Again, You can believe me or not. When I comment I'm fully aware that I'm accountable for it, and honestly, I'm more accountable for what I post than most people here, if for no other reason than I'm not in any way anonymous.

And therein lies the problem. You are unable to give specifics yet expect us to accept the ramifications of these mysterious parts.

I had mentioned this in the past but you give the impression that you possess much information about Durango and that very well may be the case. However, the same can not be said about your knowledge of Orbis. And while on paper the Orbis seems ever so slightly more powerful, you have always been quick to remind us about the implications of secret parts that engulf the difference in real world performance. To us, who are not in the know, it is like comparing two (almost) unknowns where the counter argument defies logic without proper backup. I honestly hope that they are both very similar for the sake of ports on PS4. That said, given the nebulous nature of information pertaining to Durango, I find it prudent to take everything with a pinch of salt from people who claim to possess insider information (even when it comes to PS4).

Multiple people, including developers, have said again and again here that the difference in performance between the two for third party titles is negligible.

 

[i-Lo]

I've already spilled some details in the few next-gen threads, including differences in RAM access between the 360 and Durango. I've also specified that one of the pieces of special hardware augmenting the GPU is the depth color block. I've talked a little bit about the memory move engines and surface compression. I've been told a number of things I've been explicitly asked not to share, and I don't want to get anybody fired.

And therein lies the problem. You are unable to give specifics yet expect us to accept the ramifications of these mysterious parts.

I had mentioned this in the past but you give the impression that you possess much information about Durango and that very well may be the case. However, the same can not be said about your knowledge of Orbis. And while on paper the Orbis seems ever so slightly more powerful, you have always been quick to remind us about the implications of secret parts of Durango that engulf the difference in real world performance. To us, who are not in the know, it is like comparing two (almost) unknowns where the counter argument defies logic without proper set of evidence. I honestly hope that they are both very similar for the sake of ports on PS4. That said, given the nebulous nature of information pertaining to Durango, I find it prudent to take everything with a pinch of salt from people who claim to possess insider information (even when it comes to PS4).

 

[Racer30]

Well, it certainly did when compared to the system that launched at essentially the same time, and it did offer something very big for the supposedly all-important home entertainment aspect of the console. I sure remember when that was considered a game changer among the brights of this forum. And it failed, because of its price.

No matter how you twist it, you are arguing for a far more expensive system to be released into a market that has very recently shown a complete intolerance of precisely that, even when the performance differences have been blatantly different. And to add to that, you also dream up a dark threat that will overtake a notoriously difficult market based on system capability alone, and at a high price. Who cares that we also constantly see cases of PC games being held back in order to serve the console base, it would sure be different this time!

It's just unbelieavably numbskulled given what we have just seen happen.

It offered nothing of whats important in a game console, the most important being rendering performance. It doesnt matter if Sony wanted it to be something else; a trojan horse.

Your advocating for what sinks most businesses today; playing it safe.

With that I`m not going to continue this discussion with you, its obviously not your brain talking, but your feelings :/

 

[DJwest]

Official reveals can't come soon enough

 

[coldfoot]

Gears 3 has object and camera motion blur, more particle effects happening on screen (Like Killzone).

Also Uncharted 3 does not use MLAA.

More particle effects is the only thing it has going for it. UC3 has some sort of postprocess AA (thought it was MLAA) and better textures, water, physics, animation, etc. Compare with lower frame rate on Gears 3 with No AA and it's clear UC3 is better.
I'm not saying that PS3 exclusives are untouchable, but UC3 graphics are clearly better than ANY UE game on any console. Again, UC3 wins either by technicals or popular opinion.

It's my last post on this subject as this is not the thread. Orbis>Durango would not be an Xbox>PS2 difference but I think it'll be more than the PS3/360 difference based on the rumored specs.

 

[BlackJace]

It's scary to think that the heated "fanboyism" of these threads will only intensify in the future.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I started it? I replied to this

"There's is nothing I've seen on both exclusives that couldn't be replicated on the other."

Were we all just supposed to sit tight and agree with that false statement?

well, you started naming games. tbh it doesn't really matter, the thread is off rails. again. carry on i guess...

 

[Interfectum]

It's scary to think that the heated "fanboyism" of these threads will only intensify in the future.

Wait till 3rd parties start outright naming which system is 'more powerful.'

 

[Jack_AG]

Official reveals can't come soon enough

 

[Reiko]

I started it? I replied to this

"There's is nothing I've seen on both exclusives that couldn't be replicated on the other."

Were we all just supposed to sit tight and agree with that false statement?



You are only helping my case here.

There's actually more geometry on the PS2 New York Track.

Plus the lighting is more realistic, while running in 60fps.

Forza 2 took the short version of that track, put it in 60fps, added bloom and called it a day.

It's just a case of PD being more talented here.

Turn 10 visually started coming to their own around Forza 3.

However graphically, Rallisport Challenge 2 was more advanced then GT4 while also running in 60fps. So power and talent still plays a role.

Who said they're "untouchable"? They're just better, not by much but they are. I mean, how can you even believe that two completely different systems with a VERY different architecture would produce the same results? I mean, what are the odds? One was always going to be better then the other.

If the PS3 had a slightly better GPU then it would have been certainly possible. The Cell is quite a monster, but it couldn't solve everything that the RSX lacked.

More particle effects is the only thing it has going for it. UC3 has some sort of postprocess AA (thought it was MLAA) and better textures, water, physics, animation, etc. Compare with lower frame rate on Gears 3 with No AA and it's clear UC3 is better.
I'm not saying that PS3 exclusives are untouchable, but UC3 graphics are clearly better than ANY UE game on any console. Again, UC3 wins either by technicals or popular opinion.

Better textures is questionable. Both also have crap AF. You may prefer one art style over another. And Uncharted IS more aesthetically pleasing over Gears. And you're wrong about the framerate in Gears 3, it's very polished like Uncharted 2.

But I'll stop. Don't want to shit up this thread.

 

[benny_a]

Wait till 3rd parties start outright naming which system is 'more powerful.'

And even then you still won't know. The proof is in the pudding. When both are out and there have been a year and more for games we'll see a trend.

 

[Metalmurphy]

But look, if you believe PS3 exclusives are untouchable then you're entitled to your opinion.

Also the framerate in Gears 3 and Uncharted 3 are both very smooth. Neither holds 30fps throughout the entire game.

Who said they're "untouchable"? They're just better, not by much but they are. I mean, how can you even believe that two completely different systems with a VERY different architecture would produce the same results? I mean, what are the odds? One was always going to be better then the other.

 

[i-Lo]

It's scary to think that the heated "fanboyism" of these threads will only intensify in the future.

Expect a multitude of bans before the end of this year contributed to this issue.

 

[90TilInfinity]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=46168126

So developers (I'm guessing Crytek and Epic?) were the ones who asked for 8GB of slow RAM? Hmm. Wonder how this will play out as far as third party games go.

 

[maquiladora]

Official reveals can't come soon enough

This.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

It's scary to think that the heated "fanboyism" of these threads will only intensify in the future.

Begun, these console warz has.

 

[benny_a]

Who said they're "untouchable"? They're just better, not by much but they are. I mean, how can you even believe that two completely different systems with a VERY different architecture would produce the same results? I mean, what are the odds? One was always going to be better then the other.

But better can be several factors, one of which is ease of use. If it takes 1500 man hours to produce a neat tech demo that looks 5% better than what can be achieved on the other using 1000 man hours that doesn't mean it's better.

Different perspectives color what "better" means. Video game development are slaves to budget and time constraints so all these factors need to be looked at.

 

[AgentP]

No, I said that I worried that the DDR rumor was true. I also went out of my way to correct myself on the core/logical processor thing. I didn't predict the 12/4 CU split, because I didn't know. All I'd heard was raw TF performance.

Again, You can believe me or not. When I comment I'm fully aware that I'm accountable for it, and honestly, I'm more accountable for what I post than most people here, if for no other reason than I'm not in any way anonymous.

You are accountable in what way? An employer? Us? I already said I don't believe anyone here knows much insider info. But what you say is easy to look up, and everything I've read was non-technical chit-chat or just wrong guesses. I'm not breaking your balls, but why bother with the "insider" stuff if you don't actually provide new info?

My guesses about both consoles have been right as much as wrong, but anyone with a layperson understanding of current technology and current rumors can do it, it is just a "cold reading" for tech. Claiming to have sources just takes balls, but if it were true something novel would be produced over the weeks of posts. I just don't see it from anyone here.

 

[Gorillaz]

It's scary to think that the heated "fanboyism" of these threads will only intensify in the future.

You think it's bad now? It's not even May yet.
We havn't even seen titles yet.


We just got started baby

 

[Router]

While the Uncharted series does look great, I always felt it was mostly smoke and mirrors rather than technical prowess.

You think it's bad now? It's not even May yet.
We havn't even seen titles yet.


We just got started baby

Its going to be 2005 X 100. Maybe even worse.

 

[Metalmurphy]

But better can be several factors, one of which is ease of use. If it takes 1500 man hours to produce a neat tech demo that looks 5% better than what can be achieved on the other using 1000 man hours that doesn't mean it's better.

Different perspectives color what "better" means. Video game development are slaves to budget and time constraints so all these factors need to be looked at.

Oh I agree completely. But when it comes down to it, when you develop something to the core you can get better results on a PS3, which is why you only see them on the more talented developers with the time and budget to spend.

There's actually more geometry on the PS2 New York Track.

Plus the lighting is more realistic, while running in 60fps.

Forza 2 took the short version of that track, put it in 60fps, added bloom and called it a day.

It's just a case of PD being more talented here.

Turn 10 visually started coming to their own around Forza 3.

However graphically, Rallisport Challenge 2 was more advanced then GT4 while also running in 60fps. So power and talent still plays a role.

Are you crazy? Did you miss all the extra pedestrians? The signs/objects/etc? The trees that actually have branches? The extra amounts of light sources? (Yes lighting LOOKS better on GT, but it's technically inferior). Even things like overpasses are more detailed. The Xbox just had alot more power to make all that possible. GT looks better because it simply has a more realistic art style.

The 30-60fps difference is pretty huge though.

 

[meta4]

While the Uncharted series does look great, I always felt it was mostly smoke and mirrors rather than technical prowess.



Its going to be 2005 X 100. Maybe even worse.

Every game is smoke and mirrors in some way. I would kindly suggest though that you see Digital Foundry's analysis on ND and their games before coming to such a conclusion.

Begun, these console warz has.

Yup. A lot of blood is going to be shed at E3!

 

[rdrr gnr]

Depth color block. It's a start. It's more succinct than most others in this thread. Still not particularly revelatory as it does not correct inaccurate specifications you so claim.

 

[Backfoggen]

It's scary to think that the heated "fanboyism" of these threads will only intensify in the future.

E3 should be great, if that's when we first see some actual official announcements of next-gen titles. I expect a lot of awkward downplaying and hype talk on both sides.

 

[benny_a]

While the Uncharted series does look great, I always felt it was mostly smoke and mirrors rather than technical prowess.

Do you actually care if something was achieved by brute force of technology and jiggaflops?
The end result is what matters. This might be a flawed analogy but the way I see it, if they can achieve a good looking game using "smoke & mirrors" and cutting corners then I'm fine with it.

I don't mind if Uncharted uses very low res textures at the top of tree branches while you're running around the ground of those trees and they'd found that only one in four people ever look up.
The same way I'm fine with a MP3. Even though I know FLAC is the purer format. But if I can't hear the difference what does it matter to me?

 

[amstradcpc]

I've already spilled some details in the few next-gen threads, including differences in RAM access between the 360 and Durango. I've also specified that one of the pieces of special hardware augmenting the GPU is the depth color block. I've talked a little bit about the memory move engines and surface compression. I've specified that the audio hardware in durango is some crazy shit, not just an encoder. I've been told a number of things I've been explicitly asked not to share, and I don't want to get anybody fired.

How about: Durango's documentation refers to CUs as shader cores. There's a difference in philosophy and approach between the two systems architecture, though they share a lot of ancestral DNA.

What is the depth color block in the diagram?.
So the physics will be calculated in Durango's cpu because of extra fpus?
Durango gpu is VLIW based instead of GCN?
The 66% of increase in efficiency is mainly due to low latency memory accesses?
Are rops in ESRAM as well as in the DDR3 memory?

 

[Reiko]

Oh I agree completely. But when it comes down to it, when you develop something to the core you can get better results on a PS3, which is why you only see them on the more talented developers with the time and budget to spend.



Are you crazy? Did you miss all the extra pedestrians? The objects? The trees that actually have branches? The extra amounts of light sources? (Yes lighting LOOKS better on GT, but it's technically inferior). Even things like overpasses are more detailed. The Xbox just had alot more power to make all that possible. GT looks better because it simply has a more realistic art style.

The 30-60fps difference is pretty huge though.

The point also debated in Forza and GT comes to realism.

GT4 nailed photorealism on PS2 while we had to wait till Forza 4 on the Xbox 360 for photorealism.

It's a stickling point of GT over Forza. When it comes to looking real they were already there.

Developer skill plays a huge role. Bizarre Creations accomplished photorealism at launch with Project Gotham Racing 3.

So yes, while you can say Forza 1 had more details, it looked like a friggin cartoon in comparison.

 

[i-Lo]

Every game is smoke and mirrors in some way. I would kindly suggest though that you see Digital Foundry's analysis on ND and their games before coming to such a conclusion.

Indeed. Smoke and mirrors work best when they remain undetected. I expect the trend to continue as long as the computation power is insufficient to match any and all imagination (and that is a very long way away) of creators.

 

[Marco1]

As much as PS4 sounds more impressive I have a feeling those little extras and extra RAM in durango are going to make a big difference at some point. Especially when the dev tools mature from MS.

 

[Violater]

What is the depth color block in the diagram?.
So the physics will be calculated in Durango's cpu because of extra fpus?
Durango gpu is VLIW based instead of GCN?
The 66% of increase in efficiency is due to low latency memory in its main part?

 

[daveo42]

As much as PS4 sounds more impressive I have a feeling those little extras and extra RAM in durango are going to make a big difference at some point. Especially when the dev tools mature from MS.

 

[Interfectum]

As much as PS4 sounds more impressive I have a feeling those little extras and extra RAM in durango are going to make a big difference at some point. Especially when the dev tools mature from MS.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

And therein lies the problem. You are unable to give specifics yet expect us to accept the ramifications of these mysterious parts.

I had mentioned this in the past but you give the impression that you possess much information about Durango and that very well may be the case. However, the same can not be said about your knowledge of Orbis. And while on paper the Orbis seems ever so slightly more powerful, you have always been quick to remind us about the implications of secret parts of Durango that engulf the difference in real world performance. To us, who are not in the know, it is like comparing two (almost) unknowns where the counter argument defies logic without proper set of evidence. I honestly hope that they are both very similar for the sake of ports on PS4. That said, given the nebulous nature of information pertaining to Durango, I find it prudent to take everything with a pinch of salt from people who claim to possess insider information (even when it comes to PS4).

All the insiders here do have knowledge but I think the problem is they're sharing info between each other and then you have multiple takes on the same stuff.

For us completely out the loop it is confusing and frustrating.

I agree with DJwest. Reveal them now Sony and Microsoft. And I thought all the leaks were going to come from the gaming sites! How naive am I...

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

All the insiders here do have knowledge but I think the problem is they're sharing info between each other and then you have multiple takes on the same stuff.

For us completely out the loop it is confusing and frustrating.

I agree with DJwest. Reveal them now Sony and Microsoft. And I thought all the leaks were going to come from the gaming sites! How naive am I...

GAF->Internet->GAF

 

[benny_a]

To the people making fun of people saying what you consider stupid things, do you mind just explaining or pointing to posts where it's enumerated why what they're thinking is dumb?

It would make this a more useful thread. Thanks in advance!

 

[aegies]

What is the depth color block in the diagram?.
So the physics will be calculated in Durango's cpu because of extra fpus?
Durango gpu is VLIW based instead of GCN?
The 66% of increase in efficiency is mainly due to low latency memory accesses?
Are rops in ESRAM as well as in the DDR3 memory?

Efficiency is related to SIMD performance, memory access, and other things. I've been told the ROPs are not in the ESRAM.