Law Schools’ Applications Fall as Costs Rise and Jobs Are Cut.

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Lonely1

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Law school applications are headed for a 30-year low, reflecting increased concern over soaring tuition, crushing student debt and diminishing prospects of lucrative employment upon graduation.

As of this month, there were 30,000 applicants to law schools for the fall, a 20 percent decrease from the same time last year and a 38 percent decline from 2010, according to the Law School Admission Council. Of some 200 law schools nationwide, only 4 have seen increases in applications this year. In 2004 there were 100,000 applicants to law schools; this year there are likely to be 54,000.

Such startling numbers have plunged law school administrations into soul-searching debate about the future of legal education and the profession over all.

“We are going through a revolution in law with a time bomb on our admissions books,” said William D. Henderson, a professor of law at Indiana University, who has written extensively on the issue. “Thirty years ago if you were looking to get on the escalator to upward mobility, you went to business or law school. Today, the law school escalator is broken.”

Responding to the new environment, schools are planning cutbacks and accepting students they would not have admitted before.

The drop in applications is widely viewed as directly linked to perceptions of the declining job market. Many of the reasons that law jobs are disappearing are similar to those for disruptions in other knowledge-based professions, namely the growth of the Internet. Research is faster and easier, requiring fewer lawyers, and is being outsourced to less expensive locales, including West Virginia and overseas.

In addition, legal forms are now available online and require training well below a lawyer’s to fill them out.

In recent years there has also been publicity about the debt load and declining job prospects for law graduates, especially of schools that do not generally provide employees to elite firms in major cities.

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Mr. Tamanaha of Washington University said the rise in tuition and debt was central to the decrease in applications. “We have been sharply increasing tuition during a low-inflation period,” he said of law schools collectively, noting that a year at a New York City law school can run to more than $80,000 including lodging and food. “And we have been maximizing our revenue. There is no other way to describe it. We will continue to need lawyers, but we need to bring the price down.”

Full Article.
 
The drop in applications is widely viewed as directly linked to perceptions of the declining job market. Many of the reasons that law jobs are disappearing are similar to those for disruptions in other knowledge-based professions, namely the growth of the Internet. Research is faster and easier, requiring fewer lawyers, and is being outsourced to less expensive locales, including West Virginia and overseas.



Had to check to make sure that was actually in the article.

NYT you snarky bastards.
 
Used to be pre-law, and now I'm starting med school in the Fall.

I was a few months away from taking the LSAT when I decided to switch, and I'm thankful everyday that I did. That profession is used as a fall back plan by so many in every liberal arts degree, and unfortunately, 54,000 is still a ridiculous amount.
 
So I shouldn't go for my JD after im done my Bachelors of Mech Eng?

Patent Law is still a good field to go into and requires a strong scientific background; HOWEVER, you should go out into the real world first, finish off your undergrad debt, get real experience, and then go back.
 
So I shouldn't go for my JD after im done my Bachelors of Mech Eng?
Wait and see. If you're finishing undergrad a few years from now, it might actually be worth going for a JD. It depends how fast and how far law school applications drop, but you might be able to get into a better school than you would otherwise, and the new law grad glut might become a shortage, making employment prospects promising again. Or maybe not.
 
Patent Law is still a good field to go into and requires a strong scientific background; HOWEVER, you should go out into the real world first, finish off your undergrad debt, get real experience, and then go back.

$0 debt. Canadian Universities and well paying Oil/Gas Coop jobs. I have 2 years left of my Bachelors and a year of experience.

Wait and see. If you're finishing undergrad a few years from now, it might actually be worth going for a JD. It depends how fast and how far law school applications drop, but you might be able to get into a better school than you would otherwise, and the new law grad glut might become a shortage, making employment prospects promising again. Or maybe not.

Engineering law makes a killing.
 
Used to be pre-law, and now I'm starting med school in the Fall.

I was a few months away from taking the LSAT when I decided to switch, and I'm thankful everyday that I did. That profession is used as a fall back plan by so many in every liberal arts degree, and unfortunately, 54,000 is still a ridiculous amount.

I've wondered when medical school will reach this point. Right now one can realistically expect about $250 to $300,000 in debt from school but thankfully (for now) you can expect a job assuming you pass.

However, it seems we are rapidly reaching the point where tuition is getting so high that primary care salaries will not be able to pay the debt off reasonably, upon which I can see med school going into a similar position to law school. I'm thinking 500 to 600 will be the breaking point.
 
I've wondered when medical school will reach this point. Right now one can realistically expect about $250 to $300,000 in debt from school but thankfully (for now) you can expect a job assuming you pass.

However, it seems we are rapidly reaching the point where tuition is getting so high that primary care salaries will not be able to pay the debt off reasonably, upon which I can see med school going into a similar position to law school. I'm thinking 500 to 600 will be the breaking point.

I can't imagine that the doctor shortage will end until the baby boomers die off. And that's after all the baby boomer doctors themselves are replaced.

I'm glad I went and got a Masters in Accounting as opposed to a JD. Auditors get a lot of crap for long hours and low pay but we don't have the debt of a newly graduated lawyer working the same hours for the same pay.
 
I've wondered when medical school will reach this point. Right now one can realistically expect about $250 to $300,000 in debt from school but thankfully (for now) you can expect a job assuming you pass.

However, it seems we are rapidly reaching the point where tuition is getting so high that primary care salaries will not be able to pay the debt off reasonably, upon which I can see med school going into a similar position to law school. I'm thinking 500 to 600 will be the breaking point.
Yeah, for med schools, the issue is debt. However, this will also depend on doctors' salaries. Clearly, though, the debt will not be a sustainable model.

Thank God for the residency system, though. It keeps physicians from becoming saturated. Now, we may reach a point where getting any residency is difficult, but that's a long way's off (as long as you're at a US school), but the number of physicians is determined by residency, not med school graduates.

Honestly, if law had a similar system, you could save it from becoming so saturated.
 
Astrolad: oracle of the legal industry and beater of ass in iOS boardgames. Truly, we should all heed his words.

The above comment is a lot less facetious than it sounds.
 
Yeah, for med schools, the issue is debt. However, this will also depend on doctors' salaries. Clearly, though, the debt, will not be a sustainable model.

Thank God for the residency system, though. It keeps physicians from becoming saturated. Now, we may reach a point where getting any residency is difficult, but that's a long way's off (as long as you're at a US school), but the number of physicians is determined by residency, not med school graduates.

Honestly, if law had a similar system, you could save it from becoming so saturated.

I fear that debt is increasing so quickly that even residency issues will become very serious very quickly. If students can't afford primary care specialties and suddenly no one wants to go in PCP, that eliminates a HUGE number of residencies in family, medicine, peds, etc. And if no one's going into primary care, well god help us.
 
I fear that debt is increasing so quickly that even residency issues will become very serious very quickly. If students can't afford primary care specialties and suddenly no one wants to go in PCP, that eliminates a HUGE number of residencies in family, medicine, peds, etc. And if no one's going into primary care, well god help us.
There are a large number of people going into primary care. They may be DO students and foreign grads, but still.

There is no question, however, that debt is a huge issue.
 
Why ppl are tied to the US instead of seeking jobs overseas I can't fathom. Canada has wide open doors for jobs. You may not find that the pay scale ceiling is as high as in the States, but job security is very comfortable.
 
There are a large number of people going into primary care. They may be DO students and foreign grads, but still.

There is no question, however, that debt is a huge issue.

Even DO students will have a tipping point though. IIRC almost all DO schools are private so they'll be in more debt on average than MD graduates. Foreign doctors from India and Europe where education is much cheaper could be a solution, but it seems to give the impression that American doctors are rapidly shifting over to a specialization-only model.

Graduate school tuition is out of control in the US.

Depends on what you mean. Science PhDs don't pay for their education (if they're doing it right). Tuition itself is out of control though, for sure.

Why ppl are tied to the US instead of seeking jobs overseas I can't fathom. Canada has wide open doors for jobs. You may not find that the pay scale ceiling is as high as in the States, but job security is very comfortable.

Are you saying lawyers easily find employment in Canada?
 
Why ppl are tied to the US instead of seeking jobs overseas I can't fathom. Canada has wide open doors for jobs. You may not find that the pay scale ceiling is as high as in the States, but job security is very comfortable.

because it's Canada...lol
 
Why ppl are tied to the US instead of seeking jobs overseas I can't fathom. Canada has wide open doors for jobs. You may not find that the pay scale ceiling is as high as in the States, but job security is very comfortable.
Canada doesn't just accept anyone that walks through the door, you know. Besides, people don't want to move away from their family and friends. They may have obligations to them.
 
Good news in the OP. Still five years too late. Lots of people got screwed big time.


So it's awesome? It's like America but less of the blemishes.
LOL right
 
Good. Job Market is absolute trash for attorneys. Go to school for 3-4 years, spend 100k+ and get a job after 2 years of looking with a 40k/yr starting salary.

Almost all of my attorney friends are making less than my non-attorney friends who are doing IT, Marketing, Engineering, Nursing, almost any other job. And that's if they can find a job! Plus they work longer hours and the stress is stupidly high.


I like working as a lawyer because I actually enjoy the job and can live fine off a modest income, but I'd never ever recommend it to anyone unless they are extremely passionate about a type of law and it's their dream job.
 
It's too bad nobody warned of this 5 years ago. :(

Heh, I remember telling people I wanted to go to law school. Every single person involved in law told me it's a bad idea.
 
Even DO students will have a tipping point though. IIRC almost all DO schools are private so they'll be in more debt on average than MD graduates. Foreign doctors from India and Europe where education is much cheaper could be a solution, but it seems to give the impression that American doctors are rapidly shifting over to a specialization-only model.
What's going to happen is what's already happening. You will have to take a primary care residency, because that's all you can get into. If your debt is too high, then too bad. It's a disturbing and terrible trend.

BTW, American doctors have already shifted over to a specialization only model. The US grads that go into Internal Medicine mainly just end up sub specializing in GI, Cardiology, etc. I read a report a few months ago that only about 40% of true primary care doctors are actual US MD grads.
 
there are also programs to do discovery now so there are less jobs for grads starting out

Searching through documents has become more refined, but you still need a person to review the documents themselves once they have been flagged by a program.

Doc review gigs are still plentiful.
 
So the situation I'm in is that I'm recently discovering that you can't practically go into patent prosecution with a biology background unless you have a PhD. It boggles my mind just how misinformed even lawyers are about career requirements and even the job situation. I went to law school originally because, even though law jobs were known to be scarce, patent prosecutors were in "high demand" and the USPTO was "hiring like crazy". I do see job postings for patent attorneys or examiners at the USPTO, but it's almost always for engineers and almost always for people with 2+ years of experience. I never see jobs for people right out of law school or see bio patent jobs for people without PhDs. The sad thing is I even talked to patent attorneys before law school about it, and they never mentioned either the slim pickings for people with bio backgrounds or the unofficial PhD requirement (I never thought about inquiring further because the requirement for being a patent attorney with a bio background is simply an undergraduate degree. It never crossed my mind that the standard for working as one would be different. I actually thought my MS was a boost!).

I suppose I'm glad for others that information about how bad an idea law school is is getting out to the general public, but that doesn't help me at all. I'm 33, loads of debt, no job, no family and no prospects in the field I'm interested in. Had I known all this from the beginning I'd just have done the PhD - I didn't because I thought I was too old.

So really what I've decided to do is try to find any job whatsoever to save money so I can pay off my loan. If I can't find a job in IP by September then I'm applying for a PhD program, and am never looking back. It sucks because I think I'd be good at IP, and because it'll mean I'll be 40 by the time I genuinely start a career (which means I'll likely never have a family and also be poor for the rest of my life). But at least I'll be in a field I'm happy with.

Don't go to law school folks. I can't say it enough.
 
What's going to happen is what's already happening. You will have to take a primary care residency, because that's all you can get into. If your debt is too high, then too bad. It's a disturbing and terrible trend.

BTW, American doctors have already shifted over to a specialization only model. The US grads that go into Internal Medicine mainly just end up sub specializing in GI, Cardiology, etc. I read a report a few months ago that only about 40% of true primary care doctors are actual US MD grads.

Oh wow. Pressure's on. 260 step or death!
 
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