I notice a lot of the folks in patents often start much older. I can't speak to the market itself, but you certainly wouldn't be out of place in that regard based on my experience. Nothing to be ashamed of.
Law Schools Applications Fall as Costs Rise and Jobs Are Cut.
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I notice a lot of the folks in patents often start much older. I can't speak to the market itself, but you certainly wouldn't be out of place in that regard based on my experience. Nothing to be ashamed of.
Well, you know this, but look at the specialty you want, and look at what you need.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf
Yep. Before I went to Law School I was considering IP work. However, I started looking at most of the jobs being posted in the field (I lived near Research Triangle Park in NC so there were actually a fair number of them), and they all wanted someone with the terminal degree in their field. I quickly decided that wasn't for me, because despite my strong scientific background, I had no desire to grab a PhD plus a JD.
I wouldn't turn your back on it completely, even if you have to get a PhD. I think those jobs can be pretty lucrative.
turnbuckle
Member
Oddly enough I was just talking to my friend about this issue and pointed to your thread a day or two ago
Onion_Relish
Member
Thankfully Canada is a bit different due to the fact that we don't have degree farms like americans do. That being said, the same issues are becoming more prevalent here. A lot of the grunt work that used to support students coming straight out of school is being sent overseas. I fully expect to have to move abroad to find work before being able to work in Canada again.
Edit: to stimulate further discussion, I will also point out the law school applications have actually been rising in the past decade along with median gpa/lsat score in order to be able to.get in. We only have about a dozen accredited law schools here, in comparison to over 300 "law schools" in the states.
Edit: to stimulate further discussion, I will also point out the law school applications have actually been rising in the past decade along with median gpa/lsat score in order to be able to.get in. We only have about a dozen accredited law schools here, in comparison to over 300 "law schools" in the states.
Ameri-what?
Come again?
Stay classy
Onion_Relish
Member
Can do. God bless auto correct on phones. I'll edit it out, but yeah, I guess the damage has been done.
Yeah, but there's no way I could sped 5 years working on a PhD in biology (and a post-doc) and keep up with law. Besides if I go back to science I think I'm going to stay there. My experience in science has been great, but not so much in law.
That's childish.
Onion_Relis said:
Um, what? How does your phone "auto-correct" to Americunts?
it looked like an autocorrect to me
now to redeem yourself you have to provide us with the original context in which you used that word that then put it into your dictionary
Onion_Relish
Member
it looked like an autocorrect to me
now to redeem yourself you have to provide us with the original context in which you used that word that then put it into your dictionary
4chan
That's unfair. There's good reasons to choose a career based on pay. What if you have debt? What if you have a family you have to support? What if choosing a carrer based on wage now allows you to do something more efficiently in the future?
I lol'd.
j_k_redtail
Member
Amen.
For those not in the know, the number of medical school spots is tightly regulated. Medical schools are expensive to run, generally need more equipment, often have to be attached to hospitals, and must place students into residency spots. The federal government basically subsidizes every student. It keeps the 'market' in check.
Anyone can open a law school and charge $40k every year to attend so they can use the law school as a cash cow for other programs. I'm looking at you, Indiana Tech.
This will happen to medical schools. Pretty soon almost all primary care will be performed by mid-level/physician extenders like nurse practitioners, midwives, and physician assistants with a MD "supervising". Docs will become specialists because there is no money in primary care. Teleradiology and (hopefully) telepathology will make those services cheaper (and eventually outsourced to India). Heck, wouldn't surprise me if remote clinics pop up everywhere, where the practicioner is using a camera to examine the patient with the physical assistance of a nurse. That way more rural areas don't have to pay through the nose to bring talent out to the sticks.
Agreed- who you should be mad at are people who choose a career for the "prestige"
It's a bit safer, but even many who do are having a hard time.
My cousin got laid off from his mechanical engineering job because he was one of the youngest employees. He saved his money though so he's fine (for now at least).
There's just so many 35+ year old people looking for jobs that companies would rather take them over people fresh out of college just on the basis of the former group having far more experience (as much as the number of years that recent college grads have been alive on this earth).
It's just a bad situation for 20-somethings across the board. If you are a recent college grad and you have (or found) a job within a one year period then you are already doing better than almost half of other recent college grads... in some cases an even greater number depending on where you live.
It's just a bad time overall for many 20-somethings right now.
All true & good points.
However, if you are getting into something ONLY for pay and nothing more, then that will eventually show up in the work you do and thus, you more than likely won't get paid as much as you were hoping in the first place. That or you won't be happy as much as you had originally thought.
I know from many examples (many relatives and a few friends).
People who like what they do in most cases make more money than those in the same field who don't like what they do. It usually shows up in the quality of work.
So yeah, overall you just have to find the right balance.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Broad strokes. It doesn't apply to everyone. I love my job.
Then, the careers get clogged with half-hearted performers, bringing everyone salary down, until a new career becomes "hot". Rinse and repeat.
Specially dramatic is the effect in college and university education in general. College and University became "the path to success" (more money) and now it has become a necessity. Obvious outcome, since an university degree had value (in most fields) mostly because it was supposedly hard to obtain. Now that everyone and his dog has a degree, the title has been devalued. Universities weren't designed to be society's careers agency in the first place...
How far are MD students, in relatively densely metropolitan areas, from being realistically unable to open their own practices due to competition from larger corporate entities. This has been a reality in pharmacy for many years in populated states(and now even the job market is getting very competitive). Last i heard, cause i go to a multi-disciplinarian healthcare school, this sort of stranglehold on individual private practices in dental and med is on the rise.
They already are. Most Physicians now work in Physician run groups that have contracts with specific hospitals. These are just doctors that link up their practices and then hire other doctors, with the idea that these doctors will one day wind up as partners in the group. Other doctors are just straight employees of hospitals. In 10 years, there will be very few actual individual practices left. Truthfully, though, it's been like this for a while.
Yeah I totally agree. I was trying to point out why the other poster's response wasn't quite thought out.
No no, obviously. I agree. I'm being very general. But I'd put it like this: if you had to give someone advice on whether or not to go to law school, and you knew absolutely nothing about them and were unable to find out anything about them, and could not expand on the advice (you could only say, "go" or "don't go") what would you say? I know this is a somewhat arbitrary set of conditions, but at it's very basics, I think you should err on the side of caution which is to say "don't go".
Lonely1 said:
You make it sound like that's a forgone conclusion. Also, I'm not sure I see the connection between "half-hearted performers" and bring other people's salaries down. Anyway, while I think it's noble to do something you are passionate regardless of whether it pays a lot life far more complicated than that, and to have such a strong dislike of individuals who are more financially minded, because of at least the reasons I gave above, actually is irrational.
As to your second part the connections are tenuous at best. The decline in the "worth" of college degrees is complex and multifaceted. You are too fixated on an abstract concept that is both neither universal not mutually exclusive.
Don't you feel at least a bit upset that your career has become associated so heavily with glory hunters?
Yea it's really unfortunate. I've been so lucky in my career.
Law school/the legal profession is an intensely stratified field. Its almost impossible to blanket the profession w a statement like that, so why should he care?
At least is true for entry salaries are, I believe.
Well, to be fair, I don't put most of the blame on the individual.
What other causes do you suggest? I conjecture that the most important causes are direct consequence of increased demand, because of years of the "you gotta go to college if you want to make a bank!" mindset.
Luckily Medical Schools have seen what is happening to Law Schools and have time to react to the changing market.
NYT: N.Y.U. and Other Medical Schools Offer Shorter Course in Training, for Less Tuition
A discussion of these things is a sociological dissertation. They are far too complex to tease out in a topic as basic as this one.
Damn, man, and I thought I was jaded about the whole thing. Relax and have a cigarette. Greg?
Appealing to complexity has never stopped a discussion before, nor should it, specially in the internet. And I don't smoke.
Appealing to complexity has never stopped a discussion before, nor should it, specially in the internet. And I don't smoke.
But I got shit to do and can't get into it. Good, smoking is bad for you.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Don't bother with the top schools, just focus on getting into the best school you can that will give you a full scholarship. Graduating with little or no debt is the best strategy, in my opinion.
You're not interpreting the news correctly.
WonkyPanda
Member
Even though I am fortunate to be at a top ten law school, this news has taken far too long to truly materialize. There is so much misinformation out there about law school and the legal profession that it makes me sick. Non-ABA accredited law schools charging nearly the same prices as T14 schools is downright disgusting. The worst part is that students with nothing else in life eat it right up. They see the LSAT as a minor hurdle on the path to great wealth and respect.
To anyone considering law school: your LSAT is your end-all and be-all (mostly) for law schools. VERY SERIOUSLY consider your job prospects from the schools you are looking into. If you're outside of the T25, seriously consider if you're not at least getting half of your tuition paid. A JD can be a great degree with a very rewarding career. However, the legal field is also very pretentious and one of the first questions you'll usually be asked as a young JD is, "where did you graduate from?".
To anyone considering law school: your LSAT is your end-all and be-all (mostly) for law schools. VERY SERIOUSLY consider your job prospects from the schools you are looking into. If you're outside of the T25, seriously consider if you're not at least getting half of your tuition paid. A JD can be a great degree with a very rewarding career. However, the legal field is also very pretentious and one of the first questions you'll usually be asked as a young JD is, "where did you graduate from?".
I whole heartedly agree. However, I'd add one caveat. Law is very regional, and not every state has a T25 in it. So if you live, and want to work in a state that has a T50 I think you are probably ok (in the long run - you still might be unemployed for a while). But regardless, I'd look at the region you want to work in and try to find out where most people got their degrees from.
I've said this before, but I would extend that "top school at sticker or get a big scholarship" mindset to anything outside of the "T14", at best.
I'd advise it for within parts of the "T14", as well.
WonkyPanda
Member
Very true. I may have generalized a bit. It's true that there are regional powerhouse schools, like USD, but it's always best to shoot high.
EDIT:
Very true, as well. I think as the legal market still slowly heals, and the baby boomers slowly exit, we'll see more solidification in the T14 for job prospects. But, you know, even a school like USC (I think #17, currently) would still be a school worth paying sticker for, imo.
Jobs moving outside a company to anywhere else is always considered outsourcing. (Since this is NeoGAF...) SEGA outsources Virtual Console development to another Japanese company called M2, for example.
So, law firms are outsourcing jobs. That statement by itself tells us nothing about whether they're outsourcing them to other American companies or if they're outsourcing them outside the US. But as it turns out, it's a mix of both.
Mayyyyybe. You'll prob be fine, but I actually just witnessed this happening this hiring season- more and more ppl at T-14's are getting frozen out of biglaw in the major markets, and they are migrating back to their home states looking for work. So, its not like you'll only be competing w/ grads in your states
Perhaps. Admittedly, any opinion I have on law school and post-graduation legal employment is jaded from my personal experience and the experience of many I know.
TangoAlphaLima
Member
People, don't get so caught up in T10/T14/T25/T50. If you graduate dead last in your 21st ranked school, you probably aren't going to get many job opportunities. Graduate in the top 10% at practically any accredited law school and you should be fine.
FYI, the term "outsourcing jobs" is generally used these days to discuss jobs that would normally have been performed domestically (i.e. telephone call centers) being moved overseas (i.e. India). I fully understand that jobs can be outsourced but yet remain domestic. The funny part of that article was the NY Times specifically lumping West Virginia alone with "overseas," as if Charleston was the new Mumbai or something.
LOL are you trolling w/ this 10%?
TangoAlphaLima
Member
Nope. Not sure what aspect of it is trolling, either.
Ace Harding
Member
There are still jobs for the best and brightest, so if you are one of those and really want to be a lawyer and can get into a top-tier school I wouldn't let this discourage you.
The problem is that there are so many NOT top-tier schools and too many mediocre law-school graduates.
Same thing with B-School. If you don't get into a top-tier school (and even in some cases when you can can into one) the return on that investment may not be positive (relative to what you'd get without it).
Edit: beaten so hard
The problem is that there are so many NOT top-tier schools and too many mediocre law-school graduates.
Same thing with B-School. If you don't get into a top-tier school (and even in some cases when you can can into one) the return on that investment may not be positive (relative to what you'd get without it).
Edit: beaten so hard
Outside of T1 schools (or really anywhere, but generally), Top 10% is not a lock for anything, first of all. But more importantly... getting top 10% is a total crapshoot. You have such limited control over that, its just like placing a bet on something you have a 9/10 shot of losing.
We need more people in STEM fields than lawyers anyways.
Then when everyone's a lawyer, no one will be.
Then when everyone's a lawyer, no one will be.
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