what is modern feminism about, then?
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Feminists hijack #INeedMasculismBecause hashtag. Misandry is real.
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what is modern feminism about, then?
I agree with you there, but I think calling it a patriarchal society is often misunderstood as the victim somehow contributing to the cultural norm because they share the same gender as the patriarchy. I think calling it a patriarchy negatively affects the message that feministic principles are founded in. Saying this gendered portion of society is responsible for most of the world's ills puts off a lot of people that probably share the same principles that feminists do.
I am justifiably proud of my pirouette.
And while I do think that feminism concerns itself with civil rights, as a social movement it is somewhat broader than that.
Can you expound upon this? How is the message strong and worthwhile, but also stupid? Why is basing it around "feminism" bad and why does a name change - you say it is more than the name, but that seems to be the only change proposed - to "gender equalism" make it acceptable?
You reminded me of this:
On the one hand, the incident triggered a public discussion about the daily harassment of women in New York. When a man wrote in to the New York Times to say he had never seen any improper treatment of women in public places in New York, numerous women quickly responded with assertions to the contrary. Typical were letters claiming that inappropriate behavior by well-dressed men was far from unusual and praising the police prosecution of the case. According to one letter about harassment on elevated trains, these detestable practices do not seem to be confined to any particular line of cars nor any one class of men.
This is untrue. We do have evidence that a significant proportion of the wage gap - between 65 to 76 percent - is essentially structural in nature and has more to do with the intersections of how we (as a culture) organize our workplaces, our family lives, and how women make personal choices (such as taking time off, not pursuing higher positions that would make their time less flexible) to navigate these things that usually result in lower wages compared to men. This also results in women being more likely to be granted custody of children - because this is how most intact families are arranged - which also negatively impacts the ability to earn wages. This in turn is one of the biggest reasons why we have child support and why single mothers are significantly more likely to be poor.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's annoying when a man isn't one considering we should all love, respect, and want the best for our mothers, sisters, and friends.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I would imagine it's less true at the entry level, because at the entry level, EVERYONE'S getting fucked.
It's perfectly fine to disagree, Riggs, but I think you missed the point of my analogy.
I wasn't saying that women have had it as bad as black people, or vice versa; I was saying that we shouldn't rely on personal experience in situations like this.
Personal anecdote is a very powerful tool that politicians and speakers use all the time to persuade people. Even more powerfully, we use our own personal experiences and anecdotes to shape our world view. A lot of times, however, our own personal lives are not a good indicator of the larger body of human experience. That's the nature of being one human out of 7 billion.
So when someone thinks "Well I haven't seen sexism!" Or "I haven't seen homophobia!" Or any other example you can think of, it's probably best to hold off on conclusions until you can get a wider body of experiences to inform you.
If the larger body of evidence suggests that your personal anecdotes aren't representative, I suggest you stick with the larger body of evidence. Again, I know that's really hard to do, because it isn't really how human beings are natively programmed. We're powerfully influenced by the things that happen around us, and much less influenced by things that we assume exist but haven't seen for ourselves.
But overriding those natural instincts is the right thing to do here. That was the point of my analogy.
I understand feminism has its own real issues to fight, but by showing their support more in issues like false rape cases and disgusting crap like this, it would show feminism stands for equality more than anything. And probably less bitching every time we see games like Bayonetta or Lolipop Chainsaw, or Zombie busts. Sex sell in media, both ways, there's no wars to be fought here.
This is a real issue that really should be investigated then. What's the root cause? Why aren't the employers being interviewed on the discrepancy between the male and female teacher pay?
Devolution
Member
What else would you call the structures that were created based on male supremacy?
Earthstrike
Member
That's incorrect. The patriarchy affects both men and women negatively, just one more than the other. Please think before you make erroneous assertions.
Hence the press release and the lecture
Here's an article that rounds up most of the bigger numbers, with links back to the census data that supports the pay gap.
If your workplace is a place that practices equal pay, then good on you, and I hope you stay there for awhile, because the numbers out that this is NOT the norm.
The thing to keep in mind is a LOT of employers don't even realize they're devaluing their female employees like that. It doesn't even occur to them that they're practicing subtle sexism on that level. I mean, some of course ABSOLUTELY know they're being sexist, but most people don't like to imagine they're helping keep the pay gap widened. There are any number of reasons they use to ensure that gap never closes.
Good well hope your press release does some good. All my boss's except one have been female, and most of their boss's female. I guess it's just hard for me to see this happening still these days.
Other then pay though I am just tired of all this feminist shit on gaf, really is getting old as hell. I want equal rights (what the fuck do I care, does not make my life any better knowing women are being treated beneath me), but honestly shit just gets old after a while w/ certain posters. I am not eloquent with my arguments, just being honest.
I find myself agreeing with most feminism today and I wouldn't want to be taking a seat away from a male on the bus (just because I was a female?). But that doesn't mean I will throw a bitch fit if a male opened the door for me at a store. A nice gesture is a nice gesture you shouldn't think all women practice the same "era of" feminism.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Can we stop treating this holistically and break it down please? I hate the term patriarchy because it feels too abstract, but lets get real here for a moment. It is possible to recognize that men are disadvantaged in some ways, while recognizing that they are advantaged in others. The majority of people seem to agree that women have it worse all things considered, an opinion you evidently do not share. But ultimately, it doesn't matter, because surely we can both agree that the status quo is inadequate for both parties, and that the root causes of these inequalities is the historical context of our society and the cultural zeitgeist in which we live.
EDIT:
That awkward moment when you're talking to a corpse.
Vermillion
Banned
Again, it's supposedly because of a lack of women asking/arguing for raises, as opposed to their male counterparts.
...I'll ask for a source.
José Mourinho
cocknose
I'm sure plenty of men want all those things but don't call themselves male feminists.
Mgoblue201
Won't stop picking the right nation
I assume, though, that you would object to the attitude that you have to be protected from harm and are unfit to perform certain tasks. You would not "love" to be the victim of whatever illiberal principles are forced upon you, I assure you, because part of recognizing the autonomy of individuals is allowing them to be the guardian of their own actions, even if it portends risking their lives. By the way, women are hardly shielded from the terrible consequences of war, yet historically they have not been allowed to formally fight to protect themselves from that carnage.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
This is a deeply weird statement to make as it sounds like you are unintentionally implying you would be against equal rights if it made your life better.
Opiate I know you are right, just tired of certain posters honestly. I treat women equal in real life, just some shit on these forums is tiresome. Hell some find me tiresome. Love gaf but I think some folks just look for fights on here.
Got me.
Got me.
It's because MRA's position themselves in an antagonizing position against feminism.
Instead of "I'm tired of men's trouble in family court" it's "I'm tired of men's trouble in family court and it's the fault of feminism, women actually have it better than men, their patriarchy claims are made up bullshit, etc, etc"
It as a movement exists to try to undermine feminism. People that want to bring up men's issues without the goal trying to undermine feminism are A-Okay.
For instance, every single time I've seen lopaz post on men's issues, he attacks feminism. Weird how that works.
I get what you're saying, but I think that using that term makes the scenario appear to be a combative situation. I guess it is because women were fighting for equal rights against what was institutions made up of almost exclusively men. I just think when you look at modern day feminism, associating power structures and norm creation with men alone hurts the causes ability to be accepted by a large portion of the population that would agree with almost all of what the cause says.
That's actually pretty interesting and something that I've always seemingly believed in, though I'm not sure what its quantitative effect actually is.
Rather, it's something I'd like to believe given my distaste for terms such as "_____ privilege" and the general singling out of "in groups".
depths20XX
Member
Riggs you are drunk. So am I. Sometimes it feels like this board goes in circles. I do feel like I've learned a lot from it though.
That sounds spot on.
What comes around, is all around bro.
Vermillion
Banned
Well that's because it does. People argue until they get bored, then the next topic comes up and it repeats. No one ever really changes their opinion, though.
I think it's all an association problem. One side once to be heard because they are marginalized by their most extreme members. The thing about MRA is that their extreme members make up a large portion of their members in general. It's hard to get past that point.
Devolution
Member
I guess I just don't get the insistence that the problem are the labels of "patriarchy" and "feminism." It just strikes to undermine what is our general history. Men subjugated women and as a result also subjugated themselves in some respects. In order for any change to occur feminists have to work to undo those structures and biases, some of which adversely affect men too. People want to talk about others being too politically correct, how are real labels about how society was set up, suddenly inadequate? Because people don't want to take the time to realize the basic inequities they're founded on?
Patriarchy =/= men.
There are more women obtaining higher educations than men year after year and yet every year we have less engineers graduating from college. We have made great strides in changing the way we teach in K-12, so much so that males are having difficulty learning in this environment. Who is discouraging females to avoid STEM fields?
Enosh
Member
define "teachers" are we talking that teacher A for math and teacher B for math work at school X and teacher A gets more because he is male, or are we talking about national average numbers?
because in general most elementary and high school teachers are female, while iirc university teachers have a higher % of males in them and university jobs are payed better
Angry Fork
Member
Basically the amount of hardships MRA people say they have to face is completely dwarfed by the issues women have to face, it is still very much a man's world in almost every area so MRA is like white people complaining that there isn't a white entertainment channel.
And the hardships MRA people say they have to face likely don't have to face them at all. The main issues of contention are often about divorces and child custody but so many people claiming to be angry about this end up going on sexist tirades saying shit like 'women should know their place' or lacing every one of their posts/comments with bitch/whore. It shows they have issues with women that go beyond whatever the child custody story was. The amount of this shit on youtube is so annoying.
I don't think they want the same thing. Most feminists care about defending women's rights which are under threat 80% of the time (well depending on the state I guess) while MRA's defend whatever male prejudice which may happen 20% of the time.
I honestly don't know what MRA people are so upset about, yes some fucked up divorce/child custody/payment shit happens and that should be fought but they act like women are on a mission to take over, steal all of our semen to continue to populate the planet and then exterminate us. I mean even the horror stories I've seen of women who lie about rape are rare and not on the same level as mass rape within the military or the constant legal battles with abortion/equal pay, I don't know what they're so afraid of.
Me too, I don't know why, I support fighting against all prejudices against women but I still feel iffy about calling myself a feminist. I just get the impression the majority of guys who do it are just doing it to get in their favor or get laid, maybe I'm wrong though.
The 'feminine' in the term just makes me feel like it's for them, it's something they made and I don't belong, I can support their cause but will still feel like the odd ball if I went to one of their meetings or marches.
Conciliator
Banned
Certain interests have spent the last several decades vilifying the words 'feminism' and 'patriarchy' and some others and redefining them as pejoratives for the general public. So people end up saying stuff like "I believe in working toward gender equality, but I'm not a feminist." There's nothing wrong with these words, just the irrational associations that have been tied to them.
Brian Griffin
Member
Yep.
I don't follow men's rights stuff but the morning radio host of one of Seattle's stations, BJ Shea, has advocated for men's right stuff in the past and I think some of it is valid. There are some instances like family court where men get the short end of the stick but MRAs take it too far and go on the attack against feminists even though a lot of feminists would probably agree with them.
An uninformed man goes to listen to someone speak about feminism and hears about how the patriarchy is responsible for most of the bigoted ways in society. Patriarchy isn't taught in schools as anything other than men. I guess it's better to be accurate than to be gentle about the past in order to spread the message. Ridding people of their ignorance about feminism may not be important, but I think most people who hear someone talk about the patriarchy thinks about anything but men as a whole.
Their own subjugation is the fault of their own gender. It is the fault of what they identify themselves as. The subjugation of men is the fault of men and the subjugation of women is the fault of men. I agree that it is accurate, but I think if making people understand the tenets of feminism is the goal of these discussions, which it may not be, I think the use of patriarchy as a representative of the creator of all bigoted power structures is counterproductive.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Something something sperm-jacking.
Also I remember seeing one guy once say that many FEMINAZIS like to deliberately and repeatedly get pregnant with male babies just so they can abort them.
Yeah.
While it's true that these topics usually consist of users vehemently trying to prove each other wrong, there is always utility in gaining new perspectives. There are always new arguments that I may even strongly disagree with but I am still forced to confront.
That said, these threads have definitely affected my thoughts on feminism and perception of gender relations in the past several years (and not just through posts, Mumei in particular sources a lot of great reading material).
depths20XX
Member
It's because a lot of men feel like they're being attacked by the way things have been setup. You don't really see the MRA guys shouting "But I want to keep my higher pay!". They feel as if feminism is attacking something outside of their control. Even if it may be helping them in a lot of ways.
Devolution
Member
And to remedy that people think the label needs to change when whatever label comes next will be met with the same vitriol from people on the right. It's not a label problem. It's a problem of how we teach history. We have to accept that various groups were fucked over by other groups and society was set up to benefit some over others. Instead it's "let's change these labels" "let's pretend certain privileges don't exist" "we're post sexist/post racial now." It's all just avoiding whatever reality exists so the majority can feel better.
I don't know; I think you're one of the best examples of how these discussions can be worthwhile.
Vermillion
Banned
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If these Men's Rights group exists purely in opposition to feminism, then sure, mock them. Clearly they should be working with feminism (much like other minorities stood with blacks in Civil Rights).
But the inherent idea that such a perspective isn't needed because feminism is enough, working for both genders....? First, that's not your decision to speak for other groups. Second, I don't see it. Feminism might have as its ideology the idea that fighting the patriarchy will magically equalize the situation for all genders, but that's quite an assumption. I don't see the feminist community aggressively trying to change the vast economic imbalance in dating, for example. Its a hidden game males must play: economic expenditure is considered "gentlemanly". its how you "woo" the woman. You should be crowing about 50/50 payment in relationships as much as you crow about body imagery in the media, etc.
But I get it.. You're just not interested in putting effort into that issue when there's other important work to be done. That's why I say that the feminist community can't address men's issues to an adequate degree. It's not their focus!
I really do think that men have unexpressed issues... But the whole concept of men's rights is seen as ridiculous. It is taboo to complain. It is claimed not necessarily. Those who do are mocked. "Aren't you privileged enough?" its similar to what is said about those who don't respect issues of racism or female sexism: just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. It's pretty much up to the group in question to assert these issues for themselves.
What a surprise that it is first being expressed by the most bitter and inarticulate and anti-feminist... It's a hiss of bitter steam from a perspective that is generally taboo to express.
But the inherent idea that such a perspective isn't needed because feminism is enough, working for both genders....? First, that's not your decision to speak for other groups. Second, I don't see it. Feminism might have as its ideology the idea that fighting the patriarchy will magically equalize the situation for all genders, but that's quite an assumption. I don't see the feminist community aggressively trying to change the vast economic imbalance in dating, for example. Its a hidden game males must play: economic expenditure is considered "gentlemanly". its how you "woo" the woman. You should be crowing about 50/50 payment in relationships as much as you crow about body imagery in the media, etc.
But I get it.. You're just not interested in putting effort into that issue when there's other important work to be done. That's why I say that the feminist community can't address men's issues to an adequate degree. It's not their focus!
I really do think that men have unexpressed issues... But the whole concept of men's rights is seen as ridiculous. It is taboo to complain. It is claimed not necessarily. Those who do are mocked. "Aren't you privileged enough?" its similar to what is said about those who don't respect issues of racism or female sexism: just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. It's pretty much up to the group in question to assert these issues for themselves.
What a surprise that it is first being expressed by the most bitter and inarticulate and anti-feminist... It's a hiss of bitter steam from a perspective that is generally taboo to express.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
If it wasn't for GAF I'd probably be an MRA or something. I've had so many of my viewpoints and opinions changed due debates and discussions on the Internet, so I never like the "Why are we even arguing this, no one ever changes their opinions!" nonsense people like to project.
Tweets made me laugh
Thread made be sad =|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
Should be noted that "unfar maternity leave policies" ARE stuffs like equal maternity leave for both genders
Thread made be sad =|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
Should be noted that "unfar maternity leave policies" ARE stuffs like equal maternity leave for both genders
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
The response to all this is in the first line of your own post. Other minority groups didn't throw a fit about the Black community fighting for equality, they joined in.
I agree, your point reminded me think of this thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=500378
Though they were trying to make everyone equal, they forgot that there's still inequality outside of the school.
CHEEZMO™;47493153 said:
That may not always be true for some people but I agree. Lots of my opinions have been changed online for the better so it does help some people.
User 100115
Banned
Most everyone I know holds to this. Either 50/50, or she pays for the first, he pays for the second. Most, however, will not cause a stink if he insists on paying, because it might be rude. They do make sure it's clear that the next date is on her though.
Also, I can see how smaller issues like that would not be focused on when rape and such are big, important issues. If there were groups out there that focused on those smaller issues, I would be all for them. As long as they didn't come off as 'feminists are evil!' or 'women just want to rule everything', that is. Just as I don't support the feminism groups that claim that all men are evil.
Uh... The situation you describe comes about pretty much precisely because we live in a very patriarchal society. That specifically is a remnant of the fact that for a long time the men were the only workers, and in any relationship that would come after, they would be the breadwinners. Feminism is breaking this down by breaking down men as the only breadwinners, and putting women equally in the workforce. It is breaking it down by breaking down traditional roles like this.
And personally this practice is going out of style through everyone I know. Most of my dates we end up paying pretty close to 50/50, especially if I date someone that is into feminism.
Zoe
Member
It would be interesting to see more information on this. Around here teaching pay is completely based on education, experience, and duties. It's not negotiable.
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