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[Shiggy]

I see nothing that would change the course of the Wii U in the next 4 months.

Nintendo buying EA, Activision, Ubisoft, and Take 2 could be a solution.

 

[JordanN]

Throwing money at a problem wouldn't have magically made the PS1 or PS2 disappear. Solely blaming marketing for deeply rooted issues in manufacturing costs, audience and third-party relations is incredibly simple-minded.

No, but throwing money where it hurts certainly would have made the PS1 and PS2 less desirable.

In this case, give the N64 a CD player and it could have had a stronger grip on third party (the same third party that helped make Sony grow).

 

[kinggroin]

Nintendo would probably go back to the drawing board before spending all their money on the Wii U.

When I said turn things around, I wasn't only referring to the Wii U, but rather speaking long term. Just starting with the current issue at hand.

 

[Glass Rebel]

No, but throwing money where it hurts certainly would have made the PS1 and PS2 less desirable.

In this case, give the N64 a CD player and it could have had a stronger grip on third party (the same third party that helped make Sony grow).

We can go even further back and look at what they should have and shouldn't have done but that doesn't change that the Wii wasn't the craziest idea in 2006.

 

[royalan]

Yeah, this is the type of debate I want to have. Thank you.

I honestly think that Nintendo has remained relevant in this industry because they have sold hardware based on their own software since the N64. What success the N64 and Gamecube had was because of their own software, and no amount of 3rd party support really motivated other users (beyond the Nintendo fans) to purchase the system. I think that the Wii was wildly successful almost entirely because of Nintendo's first-party software (Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Mario Kart, NSMB, DK, etc).

Increasing hardware power, in my opinion, will not magically fix Nintendo's problems with third-party publishers. Nintendo still has a different controller than the competition that requires extra development. Nintendo software still shapes the console's audience (those darn Nintendo fans). Third party software will likely still sell worse than the competition. For these reasons, third parties will likely not spend resources developing on Nintendo's platforms no matter its power compared to Microsoft's or Sony's platforms.

Nintendo has a severe image problem because of its strengths, and I don't think Nintendo should abandon their strengths in order to please third-parties. I hope I said something that you can agree with, haha.

While I think that Nintendo does need to increase the power in their consoles, and so does the rest of the industry, I do agree with the bolded. Nintendo does shape the audience of their hardware with their software. In fact, I've used this argument myself...as a reason to fault Iwata for not devoting more resources to new, big-budget, AAA franchises to create an audience for those types of games so that 3rd parties would bring those games to Nintendo consoles. So it's good to see that we agree on yet another reason why Iwata needs to get the boot.

Also, as much as Nintendo's own software makes their hardware successful, we saw with the Wii (and the last years of Gamecube, sadly) that it isn't enough to sustain their hardware, and we're also seeing with the Wii U's early performance that not just ANY Nintendo software will move systems. Nintendo's got to put out big guns just like every other hardware developer. Frankly, I don't think we'll see any significant movement of Wii U hardware until Nintendo starts putting out significant games. But, either way, we already have the proof with the Wii that Nintendo games alone (and at their current output) aren't enough for long-term success. Nintendo has to either devote more resources to courting 3rd parties, drastically expand to meet the demand themselves, or both.

I feel like Iwata did something to you personally just to piss you off. You can't honestly believe that Iwata is done come March... because Nintendo is expecting some pretty decent profit coming up now that the 3DS has stabilized and Wii U software will be released.

I do honestly believe that.

And, honestly, it's not like there isn't precedent within the industry. Just look at how quickly Sony gave Kutaragi the boot in response to PS3's initial failure. It was one of the smartest moves they made all gen, and this was the man that had presided over the PS2.

 

[Shion]

History and sales from N64 to GC don't really support your theory though.

So, let me get this straight.

Nintendo 64 and GameCube were "failures" just because they followed the "arms race" route (which is simply inaccurate), not because Nintendo made tons of mistakes and silly decisions during the 4th and 5th gen.

But now that the Wii U is failing worse than GameCube ever did, it's only because of mistakes that have nothing to do with hardware.

That's a very selective way to look at things.

 

[JordanN]

You think that a more powerful Wii would have had more third party support with the Wii-mote still intact? You think that Nintendo would have been more profitable by making a more expensive console that might not have attracted what ended as Wii's base consumer - the "casuals?" You think a more expensive console would not have cut into Nintendo's profit margin?

I feel like you aren't considering a complex scenario when you write, but are thinking in pure linearity.



that led to horrible sales. Did Wii marketing not suck in comparison? Why did it not suck when compared to the Gamecube?

Is this not everything that you've ever wanted from the Wii? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIgpuGw168k

Isn't this not everything you hated about the Wii? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQC5JyM4KHA

All I'm saying is having more powerful hardware would have removed the one major significant barrier that held back Wii.

As for profits, that's up in the air.

Wii marketing didn't suck. It sold motion controls.

 

[Gummb]

No, but throwing money where it hurts certainly would have made the PS1 and PS2 less desirable.

In this case, give the N64 a CD player and it could have had a stronger grip on third party (the same third party that helped make Sony grow).

How positive are you that this would have worked or made an actual profit? Give me a percent.

All I'm saying is having more powerful hardware would have removed the one major significant barrier that held back Wii.

As for profits, that's up in the air.

Wii marketing didn't suck. It sold motion controls.

This entire argument is hinged on Iwata's ability to turn a profit.

 

[Glass Rebel]

So, let me get this straight.

Nintendo 64 and GameCube were "failures" just because they followed the "arms race" route (which is simply inaccurate), not because Nintendo made tons of mistakes and silly decisions during the 4th and 5th gen.

But now that the Wii U is failing worse than GameCube ever did, it's only because of mistakes that have nothing to do with hardware.

That's a very selective way to look at things.

You should try again because you didn't get it straight.

 

[JordanN]

How positive are you that this would have worked or made an actual profit? Give me a percent.

Make an actual profit? Did Sony not profit?

If it worked? Well, FFVII was originally a N64 game moved to Playstation because of CD's. So 100%.

This entire argument is hinged on Iwata's ability to turn a profit.

I wasn't really interested in the "profit" side of things. Just my dissatisfaction of him so far.

 

[Gummb]

While I think that Nintendo does need to increase the power in their consoles, and so does the rest of the industry, I do agree with the bolded. Nintendo does shape the audience of their hardware with their software. In fact, I've used this argument myself...as a reason to fault Iwata for not devoting more resources to new, big-budget, AAA franchises to create an audience for those types of games so that 3rd parties would bring those games to Nintendo consoles. So it's good to see that we agree on yet another reason why Iwata needs to get the boot.

Also, as much as Nintendo's own software makes their hardware successful, we saw with the Wii (and the last years of Gamecube, sadly) that it isn't enough to sustain their hardware, and we're also seeing with the Wii U's early performance that not just ANY Nintendo software will move systems. Nintendo's got to put out big guns just like every other hardware developer. Frankly, I don't think we'll see any significant movement of Wii U hardware until Nintendo starts putting out significant games. But, either way, we already have the proof with the Wii that Nintendo games alone (and at their current output) aren't enough for long-term success. Nintendo has to either devote more resources to courting 3rd parties, drastically expand to meet the demand themselves, or both.



I do honestly believe that.

And, honestly, it's not like there isn't precedent within the industry. Just look at how quickly Sony gave Kutaragi the boot in response to PS3's initial failure. It was one of the smartest moves they made all gen, and this was the man that had presided over the PS2.

Alright, I think we're in general agreement other than the means in which Nintendo courts 3rd parties and Iwata getting fired, haha.

I still think there is a stigma beyond Nintendo's control the dominates third party perception of "what sells on Nintendo consoles." I don't think increasing power would fix that, but maybe the "no moneyhat" policy at Nintendo needs to change. Also, the different controller is another barrier that third parties will use as well. All of this in the context of making a profit, I'm just not sure.

You are right though, Nintendo needs to broaden its IP usage and increase their European and Western development presence. If they create the "right" audience, maybe they really can please everyone.

 

[Gummb]

I wasn't really interested in the "profit" side of things. Just my dissatisfaction of him so far.

this explains a lot. 0_0

ok, you're fine. My bad.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I wasn't really interested in the "profit" side of things. Just my dissatisfaction of him so far.

Well, you should have told us.

 

[JordanN]

Well, you should have told us.

I thought I made it obvious I was mostly against his leadership of Nintendo.

The times I brought up profit was to back up my point he isn't perfect or Nintendo's savior some make him out to be.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I replied to this post though and we're kinda posting in a business thread. Nevermind then.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If it worked? Well, FFVII was originally a N64 game moved to Playstation because of CD's. So 100%.

This is oversimplifying things by a lot, though.

The "Final Fantasy was moved because CDs!" thing was a really short and simple narrative in 1995 and it has even be said by people involved that it was a major factor, but there were also bigger ones. Square in general was not happy with Nintendo's licensing and manufacturing fees. If Nintendo had lessened them, instead of being aggressive with third parties, Square probably would have stuck around. They were seemingly very frustrated by the continuation of policies from the previous generation that forced them in to being serfs in Nintendo's feudal lands.

Yamauchi treated a lot of third parties like shit, Square-Enix was no exception.

 

[Gummb]

This is oversimplifying things by a lot, though.

The "Final Fantasy was moved because CDs!" thing was a really short and simple narrative in 1995 and it has even be said by people involved that it was a major factor, but there were also bigger ones. Square in general was not happy with Nintendo's licensing and manufacturing fees. If Nintendo had lessened them, instead of being aggressive with third parties, Square probably would have stuck around. They were seemingly very frustrated by the continuation of policies from the previous generation that forced them in to being serfs in Nintendo's feudal lands.

Yamauchi treated a lot of third parties like shit, Square-Enix was no exception.

Quick, delete your post! We finally got to a stopping point! Noooo!!!! You're making this too complex! !

 

[JordanN]

This is oversimplifying things by a lot, though.

The "Final Fantasy was moved because CDs!" thing was a really short and simple narrative in 1995 and it has even be said by people involved that it was a major factor, but there were also bigger ones. Square in general was not happy with Nintendo's licensing and manufacturing fees. If Nintendo had lessened them, instead of being aggressive with third parties, Square probably would have stuck around. They were seemingly very frustrated by the continuation of policies from the previous generation that forced them in to being serfs in Nintendo's feudal lands.

Yamauchi treated a lot of third parties like shit, Square-Enix was no exception.

Well unless you got a source saying Yamuachi's bullying was a bigger factor, I'll hang onto the traditional belief CDs were the real catalyst.

 

[Fried Food]

He had a good run.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Well unless you got a source saying Yamuachi's bullying was a bigger factor, I'll hang onto the traditional belief CDs were the real catalyst.

Carts were part of Yamuchi's bullying, though. It forced every developer to still go through Nintendo for manufacturing and paying their exorbitant fees. All the bullshit about it being for loading ultimately misses the point that carts were in the N64 because Nintendo made more money forcing companies to use carts.

 

[RukusProvider]

If Iwata's plan is to try n go for casual hits each gen, then yes. he should take a hike.

The casual market is anything but predicable for a stable business model in this market.

 

[farnham]

If Iwata's plan is to try n go for casual hits each gen, then yes. he should take a hike.

The casual market is anything but predicable for a stable business model in this market.

at the same time its their only way to survive. the gaming market is shrinking and a third "hardcore" fiddle will do very badly.

 

[ryūkotsusei]

If Iwata's plan is to try n go for casual hits each gen, then yes. he should take a hike.

The casual market is anything but predicable for a stable business model in this market.

at the same time its their only way to survive. the gaming market is shrinking and a third "hardcore" fiddle will do very badly.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

If WiiU sales don't pickup and a price cut is endured how are they going to make such a large profit. Surely they can't take a price cut and make that much money?

 

[AzaK]

If WiiU sales don't pickup and a price cut is endured how are they going to make such a large profit. Surely they can't take a price cut and make that much money?

They won't Until the next Fiscal Year. Things hopefully be looking up by then. More licencees, cheaper to make etc

 

[Trike]

This is oversimplifying things by a lot, though.

The "Final Fantasy was moved because CDs!" thing was a really short and simple narrative in 1995 and it has even be said by people involved that it was a major factor, but there were also bigger ones. Square in general was not happy with Nintendo's licensing and manufacturing fees. If Nintendo had lessened them, instead of being aggressive with third parties, Square probably would have stuck around. They were seemingly very frustrated by the continuation of policies from the previous generation that forced them in to being serfs in Nintendo's feudal lands.

Yamauchi treated a lot of third parties like shit, Square-Enix was no exception.

I don't consider it to be oversimplifying things by much. Considering the success that Square while on Nintendo systems, I think they could have stuck around even with Yamauchi being a dick. You can say that cartridges were a form of bullying, but they were also extremely limiting. I think it was just the last straw. Then again, Nintendo did announce the N64DD before Final Fantasy VII. By then it was probably too late. DQVII also jumped ship from N64DD to PSX, probably for the same reasons.

 

[ambientmystic]

I don't consider it to be oversimplifying things by much. Considering the success that Square while on Nintendo systems, I think they could have stuck around even with Yamauchi being a dick. You can say that cartridges were a form of bullying, but they were also extremely limiting. I think it was just the last straw. Then again, Nintendo did announce the N64DD before Final Fantasy VII. By then it was probably too late. DQVII also jumped ship from N64DD to PSX, probably for the same reasons.

Ahh.. The 1st BETRAYALTON. Too bad Neogaf wasn't around back then, nor was the concept of the Internet.

I do wonder why they never made ports of such FF games back then. I mean even CAPCPOM ported RE2 over to the N64 even though the primary platform was the PSX.

 

[Box of Bunnies]

Ahh.. The 1st BETRAYALTON. Too bad Neogaf wasn't around back then, nor was the concept of the Internet.

Er...

 

[ambientmystic]

Er...

To the mainstream. What was it like, Dialup modems, BBSes, AOL and ARPANET?

What year did the average American home even start having DSL?

 

[Trike]

Ahh.. The 1st BETRAYALTON. Too bad Neogaf wasn't around back then, nor was the concept of the Internet.

I do wonder why they never made ports of such FF games back then. I mean even CAPCPOM ported RE2 over to the N64 even though the primary platform was the PSX.

Because the only conceivable method was the N64DD? Resident Evil 2 was not nearly as big as Final Fantasy VII-IX and the N64DD was a commercial failure. Swapping cartridges was not feasible, as Banjo-Kazooie Stop-n-Swap failure showed. You would have to be impossibly fast. Dragon Quest was probably just as big of a betrayal in Japan. So Nintendo probably saw Square-Enix as two companies rubbed their penises on their forehead together forever.

 

[Nekofrog]

I don't know how or when it happened, but at some point Nintendo went from a company that made games for everyone, to a company that makes games for Nintendo fans

To the mainstream. What was it like, Dialup modems, BBSes, AOL and ARPANET?

What year did the average American home even start having DSL?

how fucking old are you?

 

[Kad5]

To the mainstream. What was it like, Dialup modems, BBSes, AOL and ARPANET?

What year did the average American home even start having DSL?

I believe you mean World Wide Web. Internet has technically been around since the 60s.

 

[Trike]

I don't know how or when it happened, but at some point Nintendo went from a company that made games for everyone, to a company that makes games for Nintendo fans

Based off of what? From what I see they have always made games that appeal to everyone. That is why Mario and Zelda have growing fanbases, and are not just stagnating.

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

Based off of what? From what I see they have always made games that appeal to everyone. That is why Mario and Zelda have growing fanbases, and are not just stagnating.

Zelda games have been selling less and less right.

 

[Chinner]

I'm disgusted by the lack of respect given to iwata. the man virtually saved the gaming industry in 2006, brought in the casual market and essentially inspired iPhone/touch gaming.

it's only been 90 days, and Nintendo has already given us year of luigi (which so far looks more interesting than the ps4). just give the man some time!

 

[marc^o^]

I don't know how or when it happened, but at some point Nintendo went from a company that made games for everyone, to a company that makes games for Nintendo fans

Looking at Wii and DS numbers on both HW and SW sides, Nintendo fans are... close to everyone?

And the Nintendo fans who own a second platform are certainly more numerous than the Nintendo allergic niche you belong to.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I would hope Iwata doesn't resign; he's the best CEO Nintendo has had, at least IMO. On the flip-side however Nintendo really needs to get them games out...:/

 

[Trike]

Zelda games have been selling less and less right.

No? Spirit Tracks has done the worst in recent years with like less than 2.5 million. But that was Legend of Trains. Skyward Sword sold 3.42 million, but as far as I know that was last updated in December 2011, a month after the game came out. Twilight Princess I think was the best selling Zelda game since Ocarina of Time, right? Plus Zelda games have long legs for sales.

So in short, no. I do not believe Zelda games have been selling less and less.

 

[VAPitts]

I'm disgusted by the lack of respect given to iwata. the man virtually saved the gaming industry in 2006, brought in the casual market and essentially inspired iPhone/touch gaming.

it's only been 90 days, and Nintendo has already given us year of luigi (which so far looks more interesting than the ps4). just give the man some time!

while i agree with u, not many around here think that deeply unfortunately lol.

I would hope Iwata doesn't resign; he's the best CEO Nintendo has had, at least IMO. On the flip-side however Nintendo really needs to get them games out...:/

Japanese business is WAAYYYY more serious then US. the honor code has been driven there for centuries. even politicians are different. look at how many PM's they've been through in the past 4 or 5 years. don't worry they can make there quota.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

Japanese business is WAAYYYY more serious then US. the honor code has been driven there for centuries.

Sounds like you're an expert, and Iwata shot himself in the foot.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

while i agree with u, not many around here think that deeply unfortunately lol.



Japanese business is WAAYYYY more serious then US. the honor code has been driven there for centuries. even politicians are different. look at how many PM's they've been through in the past 4 or 5 years. don't worry they can make there quota.

Chinner is perfect for Nintendo trolling :lol

 

[test_account]

I'm disgusted by the lack of respect given to iwata. the man virtually saved the gaming industry in 2006, brought in the casual market and essentially inspired iPhone/touch gaming.

it's only been 90 days, and Nintendo has already given us year of luigi (which so far looks more interesting than the ps4). just give the man some time!

Not to discredit anything Iwata and Nintendo have done, but why did the gaming industry needed to be saved in 2006? That generation was the generation where we saw the biggest selling console of all time (PS2). Gameboy Advance was also doing quite strong around these times. Games on cellphones excisted before the DS came along, and i'm pretty sure that touch screen on phones would be just as common as it is today without the DS.

 

[Drencrom]

while i agree with u, not many around here think that deeply unfortunately lol.

Thanks for the laugh Chinner

 

[Cheerilee]

I don't consider it to be oversimplifying things by much. Considering the success that Square while on Nintendo systems, I think they could have stuck around even with Yamauchi being a dick. You can say that cartridges were a form of bullying, but they were also extremely limiting. I think it was just the last straw. Then again, Nintendo did announce the N64DD before Final Fantasy VII. By then it was probably too late. DQVII also jumped ship from N64DD to PSX, probably for the same reasons.

Square and Enix actually had some input on the 64DD. Nintendo apparently asked them for suggestions of what they wanted on it, and based on their feedback, Nintendo apparently added a default font system to the unit, that way text-heavy games could be made easier.

After Square left, their president supposedly met Enix's president for drinks, and convinced Enix to jump ship too, with the argument that together the two RPG giants create an RPG superconsole, and that the audience for RPGs would be bigger on the PSX if Enix joined the Sony camp than it would be on the N64 if Enix stayed with Nintendo (or heaven forbid, went to Sega).

Ahh.. The 1st BETRAYALTON. Too bad Neogaf wasn't around back then, nor was the concept of the Internet.

I do wonder why they never made ports of such FF games back then. I mean even CAPCPOM ported RE2 over to the N64 even though the primary platform was the PSX.

Angel Studios, one of Nintendo's original "Dream Team" members, developed a compression system that they felt could fit CD games onto carts, and they wanted to prove it, so they went to Square and asked for permission to port FFVII to the N64. Square told them to screw off. Capcom and Resident Evil were their second choice. And the job they did on the RE2-64 port was enough to convince Shinji Mikami to give the N64 a chance with Resident Evil Zero (which got delayed and moved to GameCube, which laid the groundwork for Mikami's betrayalton).

 

[darkistheway]

The funny thing is the softening yen will probably do more to save Iwata then any games they release.

 

[Herb Alpert]

The funny thing is the softening yen will probably do more to save Iwata then any games they release.

Iwata:"Here is the plan : Wait for the yen to drop and launch those games!!!"
(could it be? no it couldn't. or...)

 

[farnham]

The funny thing is the softening yen will probably do more to save Iwata then any games they release.

you cant profit from a weak yen if you dont sell shit oversees

 

[onipex]

I like Iwata but I really don't care if he steps down. I could forgive the 3DS launch but to me they did even worst with the Wii U launch. They didn't even treat it like a launch . They blamed the political season for not buying much ad time , but that is lame since this when they wanted to launch their console. I can't blame them for betting on Mario but they gave people a cheaper 2D Mario to play already that year.

Between the last Wii U direct and the PS4 reveal I think Nintendo has a chance to turn things around. The PS4 only impressed with the amount of ram it has as the games it showed looked like more of the same for the most part. The games looked good just no clear killer app was shown. If Nintendo can get Smash Bros. out this year I think they can get sales up along with much better marketing to let people know the games are there.

 

[MrCunningham]

To the mainstream. What was it like, Dialup modems, BBSes, AOL and ARPANET?

What year did the average American home even start having DSL?

I don't know about DSL, but I remember making the jump from 56k modem to cable Internet around 2000. But in the early days of the Internet for me, I used to frequent the Secrets of the Sega Sages forums way back in the day. Even though it sounded like a Sega fansite, it actually had forums for every console. Later on they changed their name to Game Sages and were eventually bought out by IGN and turned into IGN Codes or whatever. I actually do remember the Final Fantasy VII betrayal talk and bitter Nintendo haterade were still going pretty strong back then.

It was the first online gaming forum I was ever actively a part of. Freaking nostalgia bombs just thinking about it. But I don't think the Gaming-Age Forums came into existence until about 1997-1998? Which was the original Neo-GAF

 

[TheUnknownForce]

I like Iwata but I really don't care if he steps down. I could forgive the 3DS launch but to me they did even worst with the Wii U launch. They didn't even treat it like a launch . They blamed the political season for not buying much ad time , but that is lame since this when they wanted to launch their console. I can't blame them for betting on Mario but they gave people a cheaper 2D Mario to play already that year.

Between the last Wii U direct and the PS4 reveal I think Nintendo has a chance to turn things around. The PS4 only impressed with the amount of ram it has as the games it showed looked like more of the same for the most part. The games looked good just no clear killer app was shown. If Nintendo can get Smash Bros. out this year I think they can get sales up along with much better marketing to let people know the games are there.

Smash Bros will not be out this year. The deal with Namco Bandai started last year. At least we are getting screenshots at E3, maybe a teaser trailer. Either way, it won't be out for another year at least. Instead, Nintendo will use WWHD, 3D Mario, Mario Kart, and probably Retro's game to sell the system with marketing this holiday.