Support NeoGAF

[Donnie]

But how many consumers will realize that GDDR5 and DDR3 is any different? PS3's got 8GB, Xbox has 8GB, that's what it's going to come down to to consumers.

Not many, a similar amount of people who'll realise that XBox3 has internal low latency memory to take a large bandwidth load off its main memory while PS4 doesn't.

PS4 certainly looks the more capable machine looking at specs, there's a bigger difference than last gen between PS3/360 definitely. However people need to stop comparing 8GB GDDR5 to 8GB DDR3 directly and declaring it'll make a huge difference to games performance. Other aspects of the hardware make it much closer than the 178GB vs 68GB bandwidth numbers would suggest.

 

[Ovid]

In the 90's it was about bits. Now it's about RAM.

Can someone tell me why 8GB of RAM in a home console is so mind blowing?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

If Microsoft doesn't screw things up anyway and lose favor with everyone. Those rumors of no used games and always online ARE concerning, and it'd fit the trend of falling with the third console.

Sorry, but wouldn't developers love this?

 

[Chuck Norris]

In the 90's it was about bits. Now it's about RAM.

Can someone tell me why 8GB of RAM in a home console is so mind blowing?

Because the console makers have always skimped on RAM and ended up paying for it later. This is one of the first times they have really delivered with the RAM, for mine.

 

[Donnie]

In the 90's it was about bits. Now it's about RAM.

Can someone tell me why 8GB of RAM in a home console is so mind blowing?

Because console development is usually far more efficient than PC development, in the case of RAM usuage and pretty much everything else in the system. As an example GameCube had 27MB of RAM and developers were able to produce games like Resident Evil 4. Can you imagine what kind of games would be possible on a PC with only 27MB of RAM?

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I think they will find a way to improve the specs.

Maybe. The only thing I know is that if Sony could surprise then MS could. Not saying they will, just that it's possible. People seem to forget that 4 days ago we thought the PS4 had 4 gigs of RAM; they've convinced themselves that Durango's rumored specs are set in stone or were entirely accurate in the first place.

 

[charsace]

Unlike this gen, the Durango and PS4 has the same GPU, CPU, and the same ram set up (one unified poo). The ddifference is that while the CPU is equally powerful, the PS4 has objectively better RAM(2-3 times faster) and GPU (1.8 Tflops +18 CUs vs 1.2 Tflops +12 CUs). Because they have the same architecture, making use of the extra power found in the PS4 won't be a challenge - it's just a matter of flipping a flip.

I don't think they have the same GPU. The durango GPU pushes more raw polygons even though it has less everything. People always ignore this. If they were the same family of GPU I don't understand how the durango chip can push more raw polys.

 

[The Bookerman]

In the 90's it was about bits. Now it's about RAM.

Can someone tell me why 8GB of RAM in a home console is so mind blowing?

Think of it as as a terminal where everything transits(information). The bigger it is, the more data the CPU AND GPU can work with.

At this point, most developpers will tell you that the bottleneck they have with current consoles is RAM. So more RAM and Faster RAM will effectively reduce that bottleneck.

The PS3 had VRAM and Main RAM which was also a problem. Instead of having One Big Terminal of 512mb ram, the Ps3 had two types of ram which was also a big bottleneck(Managing two types of ram was a problem the 360 didn't have, so ports would suffer as they were built usually with the 360 in mind).

 

[Eusis]

Sorry, but wouldn't developers love this?

The issue is a lot more grey then some are positing due to the fact most used game sales are apparently of older titles while trade ins are fuel for buying new games, plus it doesn't matter a damn what developers want if it means no one will buy their games. I'm sure developers wish it were possible to sell their games for $1000 and become millionaires as they get a huge share from their publishers, but neither of those happen generally.

 

[Auto_aim1]

People seem to forget that 4 days ago we thought the PS4 had 4 gigs of RAM; they've convinced themselves that Durango's rumored specs are set in stone or were entirely accurate in the first place.

Cerny said in the press conference that it was the most requested feature of developers. It has nothing to do with Durango rumours.

 

[Harlock]

The ground is going to shake when we get the first developer posting how the PS4 has more memory avaliable for games than the Xbox.

 

[Donnie]

Unlike this gen, the Durango and PS4 has the same GPU, CPU, and the same ram set up (one unified poo). The ddifference is that while the CPU is equally powerful, the PS4 has objectively better RAM(2-3 times faster) and GPU (1.8 Tflops +18 CUs vs 1.2 Tflops +12 CUs). Because they have the same architecture, making use of the extra power found in the PS4 won't be a challenge - it's just a matter of flipping a flip.

Why do people so consistently ignore the embedded memory in XBox3's GPU. Its a pretty significant architectural difference and makes a huge difference to memory bandwidth.

 

[Donnie]

The ground is going to shake when we get the first developer posting how the PS4 has more memory avaliable for games than the Xbox.

I do expect this to happen, as I think Sony will go much lighter on media functions than MS. But remember that during the GC/PS2/XBox generation we had memory differences of 27MB/35MB and 64MB and it didn't make things too difficult at all for multi-platform development.

 

[Megasoum]

Huh...I don't see why it would be too late to change any specs in the console. Non final devkits (which is what the devs are using right now) often have different specs than the final console. If they can justify it whitin their price range then there's no reason they could not improve the ram.

And no, the devs won't bitch about it. No devs will ever bitch about having a more powerfull machine. Why do you think that launch games always look like crap? The developpers have to make a game with fluctuating target specs in mind.

 

[shinnn]

Why do people so consistently ignore the embedded memory in XBox3's GPU. Its a pretty significant architectural difference and makes a huge difference to memory bandwidth.

same people who praised the PS3 rambus and ignored X360 edram

 

[Brad Grenz]

I don't think they have the same GPU. The durango GPU pushes more raw polygons even though it has less everything. People always ignore this. If they were the same family of GPU I don't understand how the durango chip can push more raw polys.

No it doesn't. The leaked poly rates are identical.

 

[R0nn]

I don't see why MS couldn't change their RAM. It's pretty cheap at Newegg.

As has been explained in this thread numerous times now, It's not that simple. When changing RAM type, the entire system needs to be redesigned due to a different architecture being used.

Anyway, I believe it would be in Microsoft's best interest to not change anything and just leave it at 8GB DDR3. The system might be less powerful as a result, but as the past has shown us time and again, this wont really matter all that much in terms of sales potential.

Other aspects have a much bigger impact on success. Pricepoint for example. Something Microsoft might have the upper hand in with their current, rumoured, hardware setup. Unlike Sony, who are seemingly solely targeting the serious gamer public (at least at first), Microsoft is probably looking at a wider audience right from the get go. They need a lower pricepoint for that.

 

[spwolf]

I do expect this to happen, as I think Sony will go much lighter on media functions than MS. But remember that during the GC/PS2/XBox generation we had memory differences of 27MB/35MB and 64MB and it didn't make things too difficult at all for multi-platform development.

please explain how and why? Why would Sony have less media functions? What are these functions that will be missing? PS3 was media server from start. What exactly will MS expand on why will PS4 cut on it?

As to the 32 MB ESRAM... what will be difference exactly, how will it be utilized? What about 32 vs 16, 18 vs 12, 8 vs 6?

Right now, i see Kinect and I see Windows based development/apps/games. Most likely you will be able to target 720 easily if you do games for Windows already. This might take a lot of RAM. Kinect will also be pushed as differentiation as well.

I think by far the best differentiator for MS could be the price... question is how much cheaper will it be to produce 720? How much does the Kinect cost to produce?

 

[spwolf]

EDGE said that Sony was shooting for 8GB and everything else that they said about the PS4 was correct too. They had the controller and game recording correct. They also said that the PS4 will be significantly more powerful than the next Xbox. So far they have been correct on everything else

http://www.edge-online.com/news/playstation-4-revealed/

yep... thats real journalistm vs Shitaku.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

They don't need to match the PS4 spec for spec, they just need to be close enough visually, and when you consider the masses can't tell the difference between 720p/1080p 30/60fps, they are obviously going to be close enough. If they were going to upgrade anything, they could look into SSD harddrives or a faster blu-ray drive, as the they are both going to be limiting factors that will be easier from an R&D perspective to fix.

 

[soundahfekz]

MS will be just fine with their configuration. I have a feeling some of the data "leaked" just as with PS4, is incorrect. I don't think it will be exactly on par with Sony's spec wise, but I think at this point the differences in graphical capability will be negligible and it will come down to first party performance (sony's advantage) vs microsoft's online infrastructure and entertainment (their advantage).

 

[Donnie]

please explain how and why? Why would Sony have less media functions? What are these functions that will be missing? PS3 was media server from start. What exactly will MS expand on why will PS4 cut on it?

As to the 32 MB ESRAM... what will be difference exactly, how will it be utilized? What about 32 vs 16, 18 vs 12, 8 vs 6?

Right now, i see Kinect and I see Windows based development/apps/games. Most likely you will be able to target 720 easily if you do games for Windows already. This might take a lot of RAM. Kinect will also be pushed as differentiation as well.

I think by far the best differentiator for MS could be the price... question is how much cheaper will it be to produce 720? How much does the Kinect cost to produce?

Lighter on media functions is probably the wrong way to say it. I don't expect PS4 to miss out on media functions, rather not have the kind of seamless media/gaming integration of XBox3. MS seem to be reserving around 3GB for their OS/Apps at the moment while Sony are reported as reserving about 512MB. Now that may change a bit later. However that still points very firmly at MS focusing on making their machine a more capable media box than PS4 (more apps running at once, seamlessly used while gaming ect). Just as Sony's more powerful GPU and faster main memory suggest they're focusing more on being the top games machine.

Embedded memory is usually used to keep most or all rendering away from main memory (rendering frames can use a massive amount of bandwidth). Having 32MB of extremely low latency high bandwidth embedded memory is very significant. To go into detail would take quite some time and thought. But suffice to say that it'll go along way to significantly narrowing the gap between the 68GB/s DDR3 in XBox3 and the 172GB/s GDDR5 in PS4.

I'm not sure what you mean by "What about 32 vs 16, 18 vs 12, 8 vs 6?", could you clarify that for me please?

 

[scently]

yep... thats real journalistm vs Shitaku.

Eh, maybe you should actually read what EDGE said. They are reporting that the ps4 is only slightly more powerful than durango, not significantly so.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Sorry, but wouldn't developers love this?

Not when the number of people buying games on the system takes a nose-dive. Whether the publishers like it or not, the major demographics who buy and play a lot of console games do not have a large amount of disposable income. Trading in games provides them with currency to buy new games.

Think of it like a housing chain, only no-one can sell the house they are currently in. Bugger all people will take the risk of buying a new house.

 

[Vinci]

GDDR5 is something it seems I will be intimately familiar with over the next few years. It's like the equivalent of a KZ2 gif.

I think people just have to come to terms with the fact that there is going to be a big power disparity this generation. There will be 3 clearly separate tiers of graphics.

Microsoft's entire Durango design was built to accommodate 8GB of slow DDR3 RAM. To switch to GDDR5 would basically obsolete all the R&D they've done so far. It would also negate any price advantage they would have over the PS4.

Microsoft is just going to go for a lower price, $150 to $200 cheaper most likely, and focus a lot on Kinect novelty to try to capture the Wii audience that didn't buy a Wii U. They'll probably sell more Xbox than PS4 with this strategy too.

Agreed.

 

[spwolf]

They don't need to match the PS4 spec for spec, they just need to be close enough visually, and when you consider the masses can't tell the difference between 720p/1080p 30/60fps, they are obviously going to be close enough. If they were going to upgrade anything, they could look into SSD harddrives or a faster blu-ray drive, as the they are both going to be limiting factors that will be easier from an R&D perspective to fix.

that also might be true... a lot of people might not care about differences and will pay less.

As to SSD or BD thats irrelevant and wont be happening.

 

[Donnie]

Eh, maybe you should actually read what EDGE said. They are reporting that the ps4 is only slightly more powerful than durango, not significantly so.

That depends on your definition of significant I suppose. I get the feeling a lot of people aren't judging the specs very well and think the difference is bigger than it probably will be. Though I suppose pure specs don't even tell the whole story yet until we know exactly what each system will reserve for the OS/Apps. I mean personally I'd say the difference is significant, as in it should translate to a noticeable visual improvement over XBox3 even in multi platform games (and more so in exclusives). But I get the idea some people think the difference is significant enough to see PS4 run a game at 1080p 60fps while XBox3 can only do the same game at 720p 30fps, which of course its not going to happen.

 

[pestul]

MS can improve the specs buy they probably will only tweak a few things. Be careful what you wish for because we certainly don't want another ROD fiasco.

Is there any truth to the rumored specs being only from Feb 2012?

 

[Domcorleone]

Can the improve the gpu with out changing the mobo?

 

[Drek]

Eh, maybe you should actually read what EDGE said. They are reporting that the ps4 is only slightly more powerful than durango, not significantly so.

They said that developers expected it to be "slightly" more powerful, but those developers were comparing based on development kits.

And if you make the next logical step from what Edge said it's easy to understand that those development kits that were likely built around a 4GB DDR5 PS4, since Sony couldn't guarantee anything more than that. Now they can and the gap has likely only widened.

MS isn't shooting for the same level of hardware as Sony, plain and simple. It likely won't be a massive gap, but it'll be a tangible gap for anyone working with the two. If all the rumors are to be believed (and they likely are, since they're leaks from developers) the next Xbox will have Kinect 2.0 in the box, and Kinect 2.0 isn't going to be cheap since it has it's own hardware. This is likely why the BoM for the two will wind up being quite close to one another, despite the PS4 having a power advantage. The real question is about how the two companies want to price their devices. Will one or both of them price at a loss, the break even point, or even a MSRP that includes some profit margin for them? That is the big question here.

 

[Ovid]

Because the console makers have always skimped on RAM and ended up paying for it later. This is one of the first times they have really delivered with the RAM, for mine.

Because console development is usually far more efficient than PC development, in the case of RAM usuage and pretty much everything else in the system. As an example GameCube had 27MB of RAM and developers were able to produce games like Resident Evil 4. Can you imagine what kind of games would be possible on a PC with only 27MB of RAM?

Think of it as as a terminal where everything transits(information). The bigger it is, the more data the CPU AND GPU can work with.

At this point, most developpers will tell you that the bottleneck they have with current consoles is RAM. So more RAM and Faster RAM will effectively reduce that bottleneck.

The PS3 had VRAM and Main RAM which was also a problem. Instead of having One Big Terminal of 512mb ram, the Ps3 had two types of ram which was also a big bottleneck(Managing two types of ram was a problem the 360 didn't have, so ports would suffer as they were built usually with the 360 in mind).

Interesting.

So was the RAM issue about cost? I'm sure they knew it would eventually end up being a problem as the console aged.

 

[AranhaHunter]

Based on what we know, this is what I think happened.

VGLeaks and other sites leaked the WiiU, Vita, and PS4 specs and were pretty right on target. There's no reason to think Durango's specs are not mostly correct as well. I have no reason to doubt vgleak's claim when they say their PS4 documents were just 1.5 month old and that Sony must have changed the RAM from mid January to early February. Sony and MS probably knew each other's tentative final specs at least a month or two before we did as well.

Now, rumor has it that Durango will launch in September, come hell or high water, or heads will roll. I hear these things go past the point of no return ~6 months prior to release, with manufacturing and production starting shortly thereafter. Sony has enough experience to know this and I also expect Sony to ship in October/November/December for Japan/US/EU respectively.

I think Sony knew that MS was entering its final phases and was going to start building Durango soon. They probably decided to change the RAM in January after talking to just close developers (SSM, ND, GG) and no one else and held that card close to their chest so it wouldn't leak any time before they wanted it to. Even some developers didn't know it and, based on Major Nelson's and others attitudes, I'm sure MS didn't know it. Sony basically just threw a curveball at MS. MS can change the RAM amount, but that would mean money invested, higher BOM than they finalized, and missing the September deadline (therefore missing the 2/3 month US/EU advantage according to my estimates). It is possible that, if all that is rumored is true, if MS were to change anything now, they could miss the holidays altogether.

Will be interesting to see what MS does, they can severely undercut Sony's price or they can work overtime to change the specs and try to still meet the september deadline with a rushed launch. Will be interesting to see.

 

[scently]

They said that developers expected it to be "slightly" more powerful, but those developers were comparing based on development kits.

And if you make the next logical step from what Edge said it's easy to understand that those development kits that were likely built around a 4GB DDR5 PS4, since Sony couldn't guarantee anything more than that. Now they can and the gap has likely only widened.

MS isn't shooting for the same level of hardware as Sony, plain and simple. It likely won't be a massive gap, but it'll be a tangible gap for anyone working with the two. If all the rumors are to be believed (and they likely are, since they're leaks from developers) the next Xbox will have Kinect 2.0 in the box, and Kinect 2.0 isn't going to be cheap since it has it's own hardware. This is likely why the BoM for the two will wind up being quite close to one another, despite the PS4 having a power advantage. The real question is about how the two companies want to price their devices. Will one or both of them price at a loss, the break even point, or even a MSRP that includes some profit margin for them? That is the big question here.

Having 8gb gddr5 does not suddenly make the durango worse than it was before.

This is a quote from Andrew on B3D on Sony's gddr5 choice

Neat, I'm actually mostly happy with the choices they made for a console here, which I haven't been able to say for a few generations now Slightly faster than I expected as well.

x86 is a good choice, and jaguar is a very good choice for a console. The tool chain is well-developed and optimization should be easier and more portable (using ISPC on the new consoles sounds like fun!). Integrated CPU/GPU and unified memory is a no-brainer as well... everything is clearly going that direction.

8GB is a good size, but all GDDR5 seems like overkill. DDR3 plus a good cache hierarchy could achieve the same result for significantly cheaper. Still, it's obviously "fine", it'll just drive up costs unnecessarily IMO. DDR3 without a good cache would have been a mistake in any case. GDDR latency might make CPU coding slightly more interesting too, but with 8 cores running at fairly low frequencies, it might not be a huge deal anyways. That said, games are going to have to do a better job of parallelism than they have to date, but that's okay too.

He is into graphics dev, and has published quite a number of articles on rendering etc.

The move to 8gb from Sony just means that they are now on equal footing in RAM size. Whatever difference in FLOPS will not be significant enough that it will be readily identifiable.

 

[DeviantBoi]

Now, rumor has it that Durango will launch in September, come hell or high water, or heads will roll.

When Microsoft rushes things, it's never good news for the consumers.

 

[abacab driver]

Double standards aplenty.

"3.5-4 gigs of DDR5 is good enough. 720 RAM is slower!"
Sony doubles their RAM suddenly out of nowhere.
"720 specs are final! Its too late to make any changes!"

"720 is going for for the casuals! Kinect 2.0 box!"
Sony shows what looked like a blatantly Kinect-inspired dual camera (to detect a light bar tacked onto every Dualshock pad) and a ridiculous demo of 2 grown men making puppets waltz with Move controllers.
"Killzone 4 OMG I'm on a rope! Cole has a brother!" Knack!!


Fun times ahead on GAF!

 

[Doug Heffernan]

They raised the RAM last minute with the 360 and they will do it again.

Crytek will make sure of that.

 

[jaxpunk]

=

Now, rumor has it that Durango will launch in September, come hell or high water, or heads will roll.

Ya my uncles cousins mailman knows a guy who is related to a guy who says he knows the janitor at the oprah show and she's giving them away tomorrow.

I dunno where you get your rumors, but I totally believe mine.

 

[S1kkZ]

They raised the RAM last minute with the 360 and they will do it again.

Crytek will make sure of that.

not sure about that. i think it will come down to the price and not what developers want. they cant beef up the ram/eram or gpu, pack in kinect 2.0 with every console without raising the price.

 

[RPGCrazied]

Even if its less powerful, even by a small amount, it might end up being a cheaper console than the PS4. If it plays the same games, just less graphic fidelity, I'd be more inclined to buy the cheaper console. Though if it blocks used games it can screw off.

 

[Shai-Tan]

How much practical performance differences are you going to see? While throughput may be better you're going to bottleneck something when all the other specs are the same. Like if the shader clock and units is identical you have similar limits on what you can do with it. I don't see anyone quantifying relevant performance differences.

 

[S1kkZ]

Even if its less powerful, even by a small amount, it might end up being a cheaper console than the PS4. If it plays the same games, just less graphic fidelity, I'd be more inclined to buy the cheaper console. Though if it blocks used games it can screw off.

do you really think it can be cheaper with kinect thrown in? i just cant see that.

 

[The Omega Man]

Will having 8GB or 16GB or 32GB(lol) of slow ass DDR3 even compare to 8GB of GDDR5?

If MS wants to make a significant boost the console's hardware via RAM they need to switch to GDDR5, more DDR3 won't do squat.

 

[kmag]

The ram isn't really that much of an issue. They can't put GDDR5 in at the last minute, nor can they increase the pool of ESRAM. They might be able to clock the GPU and/or CPU a bit higher and maybe increase the amount of ram.

Sony's move to 8gb GDDR5 isn't so much a vast benefit for the capabilities of the Sony machine (at 1080 3.5gb of GDDR5 was probably more than enough for what the GPU is capable of) it's more Sony removing the one positive differentiator spec wise that MS had.

 

[Doug Heffernan]

not sure about that. i think it will come down to the price and not what developers want.

It was Epic that convinced Microsoft to beef up the RAM on the 360 at the very last minute.

Of course it's possible if they've done it before.

Also the price of Kinect doesn't matter, keep in mind that Sony is also shipping a camera with every console (which will also use up a lot of that RAM).

 

[Raide]

They raised the RAM last minute with the 360 and they will do it again.

Crytek will make sure of that.

i think they might jump to 12 and just engineer the system well enough that the ddr3 and ddr5 gap just ain't that noticeable to the majority of consumers.

 

[Globox_82]

fanboy logic 4gb gddr5 vs 8gb gddr3 = it's same, sony has less ram but it is faster.
now 8gb gddr5 vs 8gb gddr3 = sony overkill, there is no difference really.
MS event happens, MS goes for overkill and has 12gb or more = see MS is not going for overkill, no no that was in sony case. MS won RAM memory, sorry.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

It's clear from a specs perspective that the PS4 should have the edge in power, but I keep reading people stating that it will be "significantly" more powerful which I think is an overstatement. We'll have to wait for the games to be shown to know the truth of the matter as specs alone do not always tell the whole tale. The framerate comparisons for 3rd party games will be especially interesting.

IMO, in the end, most "normal" people will not be able to tell the difference.

 

[Chiaroscuro]

MS won't mach Sony in raw power, but their are aiming at a reduced price. They know most people will not have a clue about DDR3 vs DDR5 (only knowing that both consoles have 8GB RAM) but react to a price difference. Adding DDR5 to the mix will only add cost, not perception.

 

[Animal]

Because both camps are buying designs from the same people Sony clearly used a lot of misdirection to hide their true final design.


Nothing says that Microsoft didn't do the same thing.

 

[ACH1LL3US]

EDGE said that Sony was shooting for 8GB and everything else that they said about the PS4 was correct too. They had the controller and game recording correct. They also said that the PS4 will be significantly more powerful than the next Xbox. So far they have been correct on everything else

http://www.edge-online.com/news/playstation-4-revealed/

Yet alot of people didn't believe them...

and they should have believe them, one of the only sources I would trust in.


This also means that what they said about used games on the Xbox is very likely.