Can MS change their ram to GDDR5 or is it too late at this point?

When bgassassin was talking about the Wii U's GPU before I'm pretty sure that he was speculating.

What Bgassassin has gotten right:

-First person to reveal that the PS4 GPU was 18CU@800MHz
-First person to reveal that Durango was using "ESRAM"
-FIrst person to reveal that Durango's GPU was 12CU@800MHz
-First person to hint that the Wii U was upgraded to 2GB

Edit:

Back in August.

Read what shifty geezer replies with

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1661595&postcount=13968

Durango's GPU

Bgassassin: January 16

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1694187&postcount=18506

VGleaks: January 21

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/

Regarding Bgassassin and PS4 specs:

I couldn't find the original thread where he first said 18CU, but I found this from back in May of 2012.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37629794&postcount=1553

The first time we heard about that 1.843TFLOPS # other than bgassassin (he mentioned the number before this article) was in June of 2012.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=477540
 
Brad Grenz said:
That only supports my position. The leak is vague enough on the CPU that even if it is twice as powerful as a stock Jaguar design, we can't conclude anything actually changed between then and now.
Click to expand...

You think something as obvious as a beefier CPU wouldn't be reported in a leak?
 
Spongebob said:
When bgassassin was talking about the Wii U's GPU before I'm pretty sure that he was speculating.

What Bgassassin has gotten right:

-First person to reveal that the PS4 GPU was 18CU@800MHz
-First person to reveal that Durango was using "ESRAM"
-FIrst person to reveal that Durango's GPU was 12CU@800MHz
-First person to hint that the Wii U was upgraded to 2GB
Click to expand...

He was not the first person to make any of those claims.
 
Brad Grenz said:
He was not the first person to make any of those claims.
Click to expand...
I can ensure you that he was.

He revealed that Durango was using ESRAM months ago on beyond3d.

He revealed the specs about Durango's GPU some days before vgleaks.

He was talking about 2GB RAM for WiiU way before everyone else in the WiiU speculation thread days.
 
scytherage said:
I think it's too late, but you never know; what if those specs that have been coming out are completely wrong?
Click to expand...

It was interesting because Maj Nelson subtly implied that when the specs were first released. It just feels like if there was some panic mode we would somehow see a sign of it. But they seem completely unphased.
 
I MS manages to show games of the same quality in the first year with a 100 dollar cheaper console for example, then they have nothing to fear about.
 
Maybe MS made a couple of fake hardware designs to throw off leakers?

Wishful thinking but not completely out of the realms of possibility...

Right?









Right?
 
Zzoram said:
There will be 3 clearly separate tiers of graphics.
Click to expand...

I don't think so.I believe both 720 and PS4 3rd party multiplatform games will still look the same.Doesn't MS have a rule that says that they have the right to refuse having a game on their platform if it's of alesser quality than on other platforms?

If there will be any difference on graphics then it will only be obvious in exclusive games.
 
Pistolero said:
Now, the real question is to know whether MS has had multiple designs to chose from from te get go. This a a much more interesting possibility...
Click to expand...
This is what I'm thinking. The only thing is if MS switches to GDDR5, all the money spent on DMEs and ESRAM are now wasted. If the PS4 is anywhere close to what Durango costs to make, MS shareholders should be livid if it doesn't take off like the Wii and ends up tied to the hip of the PS4 for a second generation.
 
luffeN said:
I MS manages to show games of the same quality in the first year with a 100 dollar cheaper console for example, then they have nothing to fear about.
Click to expand...

yep just like this gen


"all fear the Cell" but MS engineered a solid performing machine and nobody could tell the difference

edit: oh and there is no way they go to GDDR5...zero... too expensive. now other tricks and surprises to impress? I'm guessing hell yea
 
Spongebob said:
I can ensure you that he was.

He revealed that Durango was using ESRAM months ago on beyond3d.

He revealed the specs about Durango's GPU some days before vgleaks.

He was talking about 2GB RAM for WiiU way before everyone else in the WiiU speculation thread days.
Click to expand...

Link to any of these? Guy is no insider he just repeats what he hears on forums.
 
1: Sony could double the ram amount without having to change a single thing about the console, if they got access to the new ram chips with double the storage density that are due out this year then they could keep the exact same bus and PCB.
2: doubling the ram amount while keeping the bandwidth intact and keeping it all unified means it doesn't break any of the games designed with 4 GB in mind



As for MS:
They'd have to redesign the whole thing:
-they'd have to get rid of the ESRAM (as it is very expensive and takes up an astronomical amount of transistors) since it would no longer serve a purpose
-which would mean changing the apu die which the esram is embedded on (correct me if I'm wrong here)

Games designed around the split ram would have to be reprogrammed for unified memory which could be a lot of work.

I don't know if they want to go through all that, or if they even can.

Or they could leave the esram in, have the thing cost more than it should, have much lower yields than it should, be more complicated to program for than it should with 8GB gddr5.
Which would also be stupid and pointless.
 
I don't think the issue is that Microsoft can't change their ram. They have more than enough resources to upgrade or downgrade their system specs whenever they choose to. The issue is that changing their ram would result in a delay in their console launch schedule.

Going by yesterday's conference, it's clear that Sony aims to launch the PS4 earlier than the Xbox 720. Microsoft cannot afford to give Sony a significant head start, so I would assume their goal is to launch the nextbox no later than 3 months after the PS4 launches. Introducing a completely new memory configuration would push their release date even further back.

Furthermore, all of the rumors indicate that Microsoft has a different philosophy for next-gen. They're pursuing services and innovations in interaction; I doubt the 8GB of DDR3 memory is insufficient for their goals.
 
MS would be crazy if they did. They should make Xbox the cheaper console, focused on being an entertainment center for casuals. Developers HAVE to release their games on both PS and Xbox so games will be developed with the worst console in mind. The lower price would allow for mass market appeal.
 
Coolwhip said:
MS would be crazy if they did. They should make Xbox the cheaper console, focused on being an entertainment center for casuals. Developers HAVE to release their games on both PS and Xbox so games will be developed with the worst console in mind. The lower price would allow for mass market appeal.
Click to expand...

Why can't they have both?
 
Meisadragon said:
Anything is possible if Microsoft is willing to invest. But DDR3 + ESRAM combination is pretty good. They might have to increase the ESRAM capacity.
Click to expand...

It's easier to switch RAM type than add ESRAM count. ESRAM is on die and will delay things for 12+ months. Switching RAM type is revising the mobo so dekay may be short as few weeks.

Either way, chances are small that any changes will happen to Durango unless it has already happened.
 
Shogmaster said:
It's easier to switch RAM type than add ESRAM count. ESRAM is on die and will delay things for 12+ months. Switching RAM type is revising the mobo so dekay may be short as few weeks.

Either way, chances are small that any changes will happen to Durango unless it has already happened.
Click to expand...

For all intents and purposes, 4GB GDDR5 was more than enough to combat Durango's February specs of last year.

This last minute spec change of Sony could be a reaction to updated specs from MS.

Coolwhip said:
What do you mean?
Click to expand...

To be a powerhouse console while providing cutting edge services.
 
Wait so let me get this straight.

People are claiming the Xbox rumored specs are final, but even Jack Tretton is still claiming the PS4 specs arent final as of today.

Sony America head 'hopes' PlayStation 4 won't cost $599 at launch, says specs aren't finalized yet

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/sony-playstation-4-pricing-specs-not-final/

Despite showing a variety of games running on the newly announced PlayStation 4, Sony PlayStation's US head Jack Tretton says the console's "still in development in terms of final specs and design
 
Reiko said:
For all intents and purposes, 4GB GDDR5 was more than enough to combat Durango's February specs of last year.

This last minute spec change of Sony could be a reaction to updated specs from MS.



To be a powerhouse console while providing cutting edge services.
Click to expand...

It can, but I think MS will go for a lower price.
 
I'd like to see MS step up but I doubt they will. It's too late in the game and Sony just made their power move. Plus MS would probably be happy to put themselves in the middle position again power wise and things like cost, additional features, and the planned length of this console generation all factor in too.
 
Well, they doubled the 360 RAM right before launch.


PS4 developers were surprised at the 8GB DDR5 announcement, so that means it was a recent change.

Things change.
 
They could get an extra amount of their main memory, but the advantages wouldn't be much. A more plausible scenario would be that they left pure graphics tasks to the GPU, and added, let us say, 100 or 200 flops to the CPU (Doubling or tripling its capacity) as to allow it to take care of physics, etc...
That would mitigate a lot of Orbis advantage and bring Durango -almost, but not totally- to its level.
 
Seems MS' only possible hope at this point is their GPU being substantially more powerful than PS4's GPU.
 
when do consoles usually go into production stage before launch ?

PS3's final design has to be finalized by mid April and in May for production my estimation.

2 months for testing + 4 months manufacturing ~ late November release
 
Reiko said:
For all intents and purposes, 4GB GDDR5 was more than enough to combat Durango's February specs of last year.

This last minute spec change of Sony could be a reaction to updated specs from MS.



To be a powerhouse console while providing cutting edge services.
Click to expand...

They certainly didn't do it to combat some updated specs. I think they realized that they needed more flexibility for the OS-Services, especially that Microsoft will go nuts on this front. And as important as bandwidth is, 6 GB from Microsoft vs 3 from Sony -despite the latter being GDDR- would have posed some problems down the road; possibly for large open world games.
 
8GB ram is probably why we have the suspend state and the share button on ps4

I'd have been happy without those features and 4GB (though I LOVE suspend) but as long as they didn't have to gimp anything else to get the 8GB gddr5 I'm more than excited to have it.

I'd probably take a 2.5TF gpu and higher memory bandwidth @4GB + a less shitty cpu over 8GB though:p
Maybe game devs think differently.
 
SneakyStephan said:
1: Sony could double the ram amount without having to change a single thing about the console, if they got access to the new ram chips with double the storage density that are due out this year then they could keep the exact same bus and PCB.
2: doubling the ram amount while keeping the bandwidth intact and keeping it all unified means it doesn't break any of the games designed with 4 GB in mind



As for MS:
They'd have to redesign the whole thing:
-they'd have to get rid of the ESRAM (as it is very expensive and takes up an astronomical amount of transistors) since it would no longer serve a purpose
-which would mean changing the apu die which the esram is embedded on (correct me if I'm wrong here)

Games designed around the split ram would have to be reprogrammed for unified memory which could be a lot of work.

I don't know if they want to go through all that, or if they even can.

Or they could leave the esram in, have the thing cost more than it should, have much lower yields than it should, be more complicated to program for than it should with 8GB gddr5.
Which would also be stupid and pointless.
Click to expand...

Don't forget their data move engines. They would have no use for those anymore either. They would have to go back to the drawing boarding for 50% of their architecture and set up. Just not going to happen.

The only thing I could see them doing is:

1. Upping clocks on the memory(now you have heating problems tho)
2. Doubling the ESRAM(still only 64mb and really doesn't change much)

3. Stacking their DDR3 memory to match the bandwidth of PS4(edit: nvm thats stupid. that to would make their esram and data move engines pointless.)

Anotherwards their train is moving full fledged ahead and their is no stopping it. Their would be huge costly ramifications if they did and the whole train would derail.
 
There were stories from November claiming Sony sent out dev kits with 16GB RAM alongside one with 8GB, and EDGE said last month they would bump PS4's RAM up to 8GB if they could. 2 sources on 2 occasions and 95% of tech-GAF chose not to believe them. The point I'm making though is the information had been out there.

Maybe Microsoft is a fortress and we're not getting all of the info. I hope so, because the thought of this gen being held back slightly (publishers will cater to the lowest common denominator) to cater to cable companies etc is a little frustrating.
 
DEADEVIL said:
Wait so let me get this straight.

People are claiming the Xbox rumored specs are final, but even Jack Tretton is still claiming the PS4 specs arent final as of today.

Sony America head 'hopes' PlayStation 4 won't cost $599 at launch, says specs aren't finalized yet

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/21/sony-playstation-4-pricing-specs-not-final/

Despite showing a variety of games running on the newly announced PlayStation 4, Sony PlayStation's US head Jack Tretton says the console's "still in development in terms of final specs and design
Click to expand...

Hence why,I've suggested Sony is trying to smoke Microsoft out.
 
i dont think they can change to DRR5 as it need to change the hardware design to accept it.

but they sure can upgrade to 16Gig if they want to. thats at least... easier than switching to DRR5
 
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