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[davepoobond]

i dont see it that way at all.

struggling with identity has both sides of the coin involved -- pro and anti gay, and that is an understandable process that someone may go through when they are realizing they are gay. not that it ALWAYS happens, but i found it more-or-less believable that Kanji was gay and struggling with that identity.

 

[jello44]

This is probably an issue with the translation, and not nearly as jarring in the original Japanese. I'm guessing the translators had to compromise given they can't just insert new dialogue parts in there to justify or explain why they're suddenly using the other set of gender pronouns.

That's possible and they still do call her Naoto-kun, which is generally a male honorific.

 

[Sophia]

The context of knowing where those scenes stand in Japanese culture and how they comment on it specifically are important. It's good you brought that up.

Actually, now that I thought about it, if anything they don't suddenly start treating Naoto differently in the Japanese verison. She's still "Naoto-kun" in the dialogue and stuff, after all.

English has no gender personal pronouns that can be used in the context that aren't degrading. :\

That's possible and they still do call her Naoto-kun, which is generally a male honorific.

Yup. It's really just a unfortunate side effect of the translation. Although the more I learn about Japanese, the more fascinating localizations become.

 

[Callibretto]

lol, at kanji/naoto being gay or trans. P4's writers aren't nearly interesting or thoughtful enough to handle something like in a respectful manner. P4 is a silly harem-simulator, and kanji's main role in it is the same as every other male party member: to compliment you, the player, and tell you how awesome you are and how much he looks up to you.



I heard they still have those shitty gay jokes in P4's fighting game sequel. True/false?

Shadow Kanji appear a little bit, but most of the jokes for the real Kanji is mostly about how dumb he is and his crush for Naoto. Kanji is pretty much the only P4 character who is not bothered with his shadow reappearance and just beat the shit out of it instead unlike other P4 character who started to doubt and question themselves when their Shadow shows up.

if anything, P4 Arena just made Kanji even more awesome and badass

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Hell, when you ask him about your costumes in Golden, he will sometimes hit on your character and then quickly realize what he's doing.

It's his insecurity rearing its head again, the core essence of his "other self". He was worried about how his compliments might be perceived. Guys worry about how to compliment (or even just approach) other guys without being awkward all the time. Where do you think the "No homo" thing comes from? Doesn't say anything about his sexuality.

 

[Daimaou]

It's understandable she would be disappointed, but there's nothing quite like losing sight of the forest for the trees.

 

[Venfayth]

Stupid, sensationalistic article, probably only written to draw in views.

 

[CSX]

That's possible and they still do call her Naoto-kun, which is generally a male honorific.

I assumed they do this since they were used to it plus Naoto would be more comfortable with it.

Though Teddie calls her Nao-chan all the time if i remember right

 

[Sylvrfonic]

To me Persona 4 used sexuality to make a statement about gender roles in the context of their own society.I also think they did an amazing job and handled the characters realistically and delicately.

That said the writer of the article can't be asked to ignore her own biases. But acknowledging those biases should be part of writing about how P4 was interpreted by her to be anti gay.

Sadly,instead of getting an interesting article about P4 all we get is a bunch of paragraphs that basically become a cautionary tale about letting your biases blind you to social subtext in a culture you may not understand as well as you could.

 

[Esura]

And they just found out. They're completely convinced she's a boy and are accustomed to referring to her as such and then... they just switch.

It's a little jarring. If we're gonna praise the believability of the characters we can't be selective. Even when accounting for suspension of disbelief (which I do). I'm not saying you have to agree, but it's not really an outlandish point to make on the authors part.

It would be kind of rude to keep calling her a boy after you find out she's not a boy.

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

I'm playing through P4G and I agree with the author on some points. The campout scene bugged me specifically, where Yosuke insinuated that Kanji would rape them (and I couldn't do or say anything to the contrary).

Whats even weirder is that so far (i'm about 30 hours in) they never, ever said the words gay or homosexual. They ALWAYS trail off and that pissed me off. Gay, gay, gay, homosexual, I like men. But Atlus never went there.

Also I'm kinda ticked that there are so many girls to romance and not one single dude. I hope they fix that shit in Persona 5, I want to bone some men.

I applaud the author and Kotaku for trying to tackle the very real issues of poor representation of minorities in video games, and I feel people should be having these conversations much more often.

 

[Sophia]

I assumed they do this since they were used to it plus Naoto would be more comfortable with it.

Though Teddie calls her Nao-chan all the time if i remember right

Teddie gives almost everyone a nickname tho, so it's a moot point.

 

[Spinluck]

It isn't.

 

[bonercop]

Shadow Kanji appear a little bit, but most of the jokes for the real Kanji is mostly about how dumb he is and his crush for Naoto. Kanji is pretty much the only P4 character who is not bothered with his shadow reappearance and just beat the shit out of it instead unlike other P4 character who started to doubt and question themselves when their Shadow shows up.

Nah, I mean specifically between Kanji and his friends. I remember seeing the line transcribed on a forum and it was a really dumb gay butt-sex joke. I'll try googling it.

 

[Cartman86]

See the author just wants it to have a pro-homosexual agenda. It's not enough to be neutral or agnostic. From gathering other knowledge on the author from this thread it seems she would have a reason to push these kinds of stances.

There is no such thing as neutral or agnostic on such topics.

Anyways the moral relativism gamers show to dismiss the problems Japan has with sexism, and homophobia is staggering. Yeah America fucking sucks, but it's not the only place with some issues.

 

[jello44]

Teddie gives almost everyone a nickname tho, so it's a moot point.

Heh, yeah, Teddie's the only one who calls her that. But he's just goofy.

 

[Squire]

It would be kind of rude to keep calling her a boy after you find out she's not a boy.

Anymore clueless commentary for us? Because wow.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Since this is a Persona 4 thread, I'm obligated to link to the incredible, masterful, legendary comic dubs on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mUTQKMRLYQ

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Well, that article was interesting. Not sure she played through all of the social links to the max but hey one womans opinion can be different to mine.

The comments on that Gamespot piece though are fucking awful, going from a discussion on gay themes to a justification of pedophilia.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/de...age=2&hubRefSrc=permalink#lf_comment=60744364

You clearly don't know. Being a child molester does not make you a pedophile, a lot of people rape children because they're easy targets, they're not necessarily attracted to them more than to adults. And being a pedophile does not make you a child molester.

Can we send round a barrel of napalm?

What the fuck is wrong with you? Nothing he said was wrong. Not all child molesters are pedophiles, and not all pedophiles are child molesters.

 

[Meia]

One of the reasons why I liked persona 4 is it dealt with issues not brought up much in games, at all. It's easy to see Kanji just as someone coming to grips with homosexuality on the scarcest surface, but come on, nothing else about his link was like that. Shadows are always supposed to be take the most embarrassing aspects of their real selves solely to get them to deny them so they can be free. Like someone else said, that idea gave birth to that form of Kanji's shadow, nothing else.

Same with Naoto really. Though hers wasn't really about being male/female, just being misused because of her age. Because of that, of course she'd want to keep her gender hidden, she's already been somewhat shunned because of her age.


These are real issues, but not what some people want them to be. It's like anything else, interest groups trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. /shrug



And yeah, Yosuke was hatable a few times during the game, and the camping scene is definitely one of those times. Hell, the swimming scene after didn't exactly endear his character either. If anything, his sole purpose on the game(besides being the mouthpiece of the investigation since we have a silent protagonist) is comedy relief, so he has to say idiotic things so you can laugh at him when someone happens to him. Way I've always looked at it anyway. He's a bro, that starts off as a major idiot, then gets better over time.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Since this is a Persona 4 thread, I'm obligated to link to the incredible, masterful, legendary comic dubs on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mUTQKMRLYQ

The essence of Yosuke:

and:

 

[Laughing Banana]

People need to understand that just because Yosuke says stuff A doesn't mean the game itself condones stuff A.

 

[Midou]

I feel both issues, but especially the Naoto one, are a huge projection of the writer WANTING those to be the issues the game was tackling. I didn't get that concept from Naoto at all, it always seemed like she was pretending to be a guy in order to fit in as a detective and be taken seriously.

 

[Mesoian]

People need to understand that just because Yosuke says stuff A doesn't mean the game itself condones stuff A.

Yosuke spends the first 3 hours of that game doing nothing but falling off his bike and getting kicked in the nuts. He's supposed to be seen as kind of dumb.

 

[Kusagari]

The Naoto trans stuff is and always has been ridiculous.

Anyone who has any idea about Japanese culture could have seen where her storyline was going and why she identified as a man coming a million miles away. There was never any real hints that she was trans.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

There is no such thing as neutral or agnostic on such topics.

Anyways the moral relativism gamers show to dismiss the problems Japan has with sexism, and homophobia is staggering. Yeah America fucking sucks, but it's not the only place with some issues.

The issue exist but the characters in this particular game were handled pretty well .

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

The Naoto trans stuff is and always has been ridiculous.

Anyone who has any idea about Japanese culture could have seen where her storyline was going and why she identified as a man coming a million miles away. There was never any real hints that she was trans.

Yup. I said earlier that it's a staple of harem anime/manga to toss in the "trap" character who's stupidly obvious to the audience but confusing to the main character. There is no social commentary of any kind being made.

 

[Trigger]

I feel both issues, but especially the Naoto one, are a huge projection of the writer WANTING those to be the issues the game was tackling. I didn't get that concept from Naoto at all, it always seemed like she was pretending to be a guy in order to fit in as a detective and be taken seriously.

lol, it's spelled out directly as such during the game. Even if I don't agree with the Kanji is gay interpretation, there's at least room for interpretation and discussion. There's nothing ambiguous about Naoto's feelings.

 

[Esura]

Anymore clueless commentary for us? Because wow.

Not getting where you trying to come from bro.

 

[Nuklear]

They're high school kids, of course they'll act that way.

That's what I think too. A lot of high school kids have immature views. It's a part of growing up and the characters did do some growing up by the end of the game.

 

[Coxy]

it takes an amazing level of self centeredness to take a story not follwing your personal experiences and turn it into an attack on your community, sexuality and identity

Naoto being trans would have just as equally sacrificed the positive message of Naoto not needing to be like a man to be respected, strong and cool and I'm sure shitty games journalists would have had a field day with that too

 

[Sophia]

The Naoto trans stuff is and always has been ridiculous.

Anyone who has any idea about Japanese culture could have seen where her storyline was going and why she identified as a man coming a million miles away. There was never any real hints that she was trans.

Yup. I said earlier that it's a staple of harem anime/manga to toss in the "trap" character who's stupidly obvious to the audience but confusing to the main character. There is no social commentary of any kind being made.

No social commentary being made? Perhaps you missed the entire scene after her shadow was beaten?

It is as Kusagari said; A statement about sexism an gender issues in the Japanese workforce and their culture.

I feel that people are far too quick to dismiss something with the excuse of it being anime around here. That's a logical fallacy of the worst kind, on top of being fucking annoying.

 

[TimeEffect]

I imagine Caroline is getting chewed up on Gamespot's forum.

 

[bonercop]

Nah, I mean specifically between Kanji and his friends. I remember seeing the line transcribed on a forum and it was a really dumb gay butt-sex joke. I'll try googling it.

Got it! Magic keywords were "kanji persona 4 arena ass joke"

Yosuke: "Kanji is...... Beefcake Emperor!? Noooooooo! I dont wanna be alone with him! I guess this what they meant by covering your ass for the worst..."

Yu: "Dont worry you'll be fine.."

Yosuke: "Do you mean me or my ass?"

oh man, this writing

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

No social commentary being made? Perhaps you missed the entire scene after her shadow was beaten?

It is as Kusagari said; A statement about sexism an gender issues in the Japanese workforce and their culture.

Not only Japan, mind you. A family member close to me is really, and mean REALLY, Naoto esque in her way of thinking and act at times because this issues.

 

[jello44]

Yup. I said earlier that it's a staple of harem anime/manga to toss in the "trap" character who's stupidly obvious to the audience but confusing to the main character..

 

[Midou]

lol, it's spelled out directly as such during the game. Even if I don't agree with the Kanji is gay interpretation, there's at least room for interpretation and discussion. There's nothing ambiguous about Naoto's feelings.

But that's the cop-out! She wasn't written the way carolyn wanted, so it was Atlus doing a terrible job at making a transgender character come out. As if the person writing it going through that isn't a horrible bias towards the article.

Kanji being confused about his gender and then not being gay isn't a cop-out either. It's the way they decided to go with the story, and I find it no worse or better than if he was gay. Forcing gay or transgender issues into a game that is not based around them isn't really any better.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

The last one? You mean the bit about Naoto or the developers being Anti-gay?

Naoto's dilemma stems from the gap between child and adult, not that she hated being a woman, right? Or did she claim to hate being female? I thought that she just admired cool detective novel men, so started dressing like them. Furthermore, IIRC it's mentioned that Naoto adopted the name Naoto, a typically masculine name... so adopted it from what? Nao is a girl's name. Is that her actual name?

 

[CSX]

Got it! Magic keywords were "kanji persona 4 arena ass joke"



oh man, this writing

Another example of Yosuke being a jerk. Didnt know they continued that in Arena.

 

[Femmeworth]

She isn't completely off base, though I haven't played the game in years and my perspective has changed greatly, so I can't say to what extent.

I think the article she links to does a better job of talking about Naoto. http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=6088

What's offensive about Persona 4 Golden was not how they depict Kanji.

What's offensive about that game was how they thought giving out a goddamn cliched' bath-house scene is somehow a great reward for finishing the bonus dungeon. And this is after the OG game already has one to boot.

Trying too hard and miss it by a mile there, Atlus.

Ugh. Oh Atlus.

 

[RawkHawk2010]

Even if the game was anti-gay, I don't really see the problem with that.

Writers should have the freedom to write what they want even if it upsets some people.

This.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

In my opinion this is a totally ridiculous and misplaced analysis. I thought the game did a brilliant job of writing teenagers.

Teenagers.

 

[Nuklear]

Different strikes for different folks. It's a little weird the group immediately takes to referring to Naoto as female. Yosuke can't stand her one minute and then he's calling her cute the next? In all fairness, I could see how she felt that big shift was off-putting from where she stands.

Well said, Levito.

Yosuke is a guy that immediately thinks with his penis. It was no surprise to me. The dude just wants to get laid.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

HEY I'm Kanji Tatsumi and I enjoy naked men

 

[buddha0991]

It is interesting to see such a wide variety of opinions about this. In my opinion, that is what makes social commentary worth it, to see how everyone thinks and reacts to it.

 

[Squire]

Not getting where you trying to come from bro.

That post read like you have a complete and total lack of knowledge with regards to the LGBT community. Zero perspective entirely.

"It'd be rude to keep calling her a boy." Do you know anyone transgendered?

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

No social commentary being made? Perhaps you missed the entire scene after her shadow was beaten?

It is as Kusagari said; A statement about sexism an gender issues in the Japanese workforce and their culture.

I feel that people are far too quick to dismiss something with the excuse of it being anime around here. That's a logical fallacy of the worst kind, on top of being fucking annoying.

I should have qualified the last sentence. I meant to say there was no social commentary on transgender issues being addressed in Naoto's story. At all. Sexism and gender roles? Of course there are. She's a tomboy, not transgender.

Also, I'm not at all suggesting that anime in general is incapable of saying something important every once in a while, I'm just not going to extend that courtesy to harem character tropes.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Naoto is supposed to be a victim of sexism, why can't people understand this? Where is this transsexual stuff coming from?

 

[vocab]

Oh look, more kotaku garbage that is extremely late to the party. What's next? An article on Ultima 7 talking about the sacrifice of babies to summon demons is completely against the beliefs of the religious community. VIDEO GAMES YOU GUYS

 

[Beelzeboss]

Did the writer of this forget that bisexuality exists?