Shoot the Core! - Gaf Shoot ‘em Up (aka Shooter/SHMUP) Reference Thread

Sine Mora is the sum of it's parts.

- A pretty damn good story considering the genre
- An actual fleshed out, interesting world
- Glorious artwork and designs
- Extremely satisfying to just shoot shit thanks to great audio mix, screen shake, etc.
- Enough under the hood to keep me coming back

I understand it's not particuarly well regarded amongst the elite, but well, i don't gives a damn. I love it!

Yeah, definitely buying PS2 Gradius V after watching a run of the 1st stage.
You are certainly allowed to like it and I am anything but an elite shmupper, but the things it does well aren't something I care about (especially within the context of this genre). I would like it more if it didn't punish you for using its mechanics - I think that's my biggest problem with it, or at least the most easily explainable. It's just kind of a chore to me, maybe if the weapons were better I'd like it more.

Also holy fucking shit Gradius V is delightful
 
You are certainly allowed to like it and I am anything but an elite shmupper, but the things it does well aren't something I care about (especially within the context of this genre). I would like it more if it didn't punish you for using its mechanics - I think that's my biggest problem with it, or at least the most easily explainable. It's just kind of a chore to me, maybe if the weapons were better I'd like it more.

Also holy fucking shit Gradius V is delightful

I agree that it takes too long to get your weapons up to a point of being satisfying (like Lv.4 and onward). And if you fuck up, you're back to being mostly usless if you can't recoup the weapons in time. At that point, you may as well start over, especially if it's in the midst of a boss fight.
I think they hit a good balance with the Time Capsules though. They give you just enough that you can't rely on it.
 
Sine Mora is the sum of it's parts.

- A pretty damn good story considering the genre
- An actual fleshed out, interesting world
- Glorious artwork and designs
- Extremely satisfying to just shoot shit thanks to great audio mix, screen shake, etc.
- Enough under the hood to keep me coming back

I understand it's not particuarly well regarded amongst the elite, but well, i don't give a damn. I love it!

Yeah, definitely buying PS2 Gradius V after watching a run of the 1st stage.

I got Sine Mora and played it awhile and it has everything you said. It was great for what it was, but it had some really REALLY bizarre drops and spikes in difficulty. That said I can't say the game stayed with me over all and I am most definitely not elite in the least. Though I have beaten plenty of shmups and such I've never 1cc-ed anything. I haven't come close to the Akai Katana competition goal yet, and honestly I just consider myself an enthusiast over anyone I'd label as particularly "skilled" at the genre.

I liked it for what it was and at times it was great, but it just was hit or miss on gameplay most of the time. The potential is MOST DEFINITELY there for the dudes who made it to start creating really impressive stuff, but consistency just wasn't there. I hope t heir next outing though goes for a more steady and consistent flow to the levels. Those random spikes and drops were just off putting for me.
 
I got Sine Mora and played it awhile and it has everything you said. It was great for what it was, but it had some really REALLY bizarre drops and spikes in difficulty. That said I can't say the game stayed with me over all and I am most definitely not elite in the least. Though I have beaten plenty of shmups and such I've never 1cc-ed anything. I haven't come close to the Akai Katana competition goal yet, and honestly I just consider myself an enthusiast over anyone I'd label as particularly "skilled" at the genre.

I liked it for what it was and at times it was great, but it just was hit or miss on gameplay most of the time. The potential is MOST DEFINITELY there for the dudes who made it to start creating really impressive stuff, but consistency just wasn't there. I hope t heir next outing though goes for a more steady and consistent flow to the levels. Those random spikes and drops were just off putting for me.

True true

Basically spots I always dread/difficutly spikes are: Spider boss, navigating trash, and service tunnel with the worms
 
True true

Basically spots I always dread/difficutly spikes are: Spider boss, navigating trash, and service tunnel with the worms

Yup. My exact hitlist. Also the fire. Any fly through involving the fire with sudden screen accelerations requiring time slow would catch me off guard. Suddenly its Otomedius Excellent again and you got to dodge all the way up and down to the limits of the screen without hitting enemy fire or terrain lest you instantly die. Just plain weird.

On a sidenote involving another indie shmup maker I'm checking out the Chronoblast dude and seeing if he could use an artist. Things are looking promising. I really liked that game and would really like to work with him. Hope everything comes together.
 
Advice to people new to the genre:

1. Don't continue
Most of the shooters worth playing weren't made to be console games. Gradius is not an NES game, Ikaruga is not a Dreamcast game. They were made to be arcade games. And yes, believe it or not, every single Japanese arcade game I've seen is both completely clearable with a single credit and at its most enjoyable when played with a single credit. In fact, they often turn into noninteractive explosion clip shows if you use as many credits as you "need." Not to mention the countless games that wreck your score when continuing, the games that prevent you from playing them to their entirety when continuing, the games that introduced continues only later in the International releases and home ports, or the games that prevent you from continuing at all. Before you scoff at the thought of a game like Raiden being more than some vacuum that tries to unfairly kill you every two seconds to earn more cash while you continue into infinity, realize that...

2. These games aren't as hard as you think they are
Seriously. You can get halfway through Espgaluda, at least. I promise. If you follow rule 1 closely for a while, you'll realize that the fastest way to get anywhere at all when it comes to these games (or any other arcade games, for that matter) is to play without continuing. Getting wrecked in stage 2 means that you aren't good enough to beat stage 2 yet. It does not mean that you'll never be good enough to beat stage 2.

3. Playing for score isn't the only way to play these games
I have way more fun with a game when I play for survival. At least, when I'm new to it. And honestly, I can't see any other way making sense. What's the point in jumping into DoDonPachi and quitting whenever you break your chain in stage 2 when you can't even get halfway through the game? Start simply by surviving, first, then only get cocky and mess with scoring in areas that you eventually get comfortable in.

4. Don't assume that "bullet hell" means "hard"
I've seen friends new to arcade games have more trouble with the original Gradius than with Mushihimesama Futari 1.5. Hell, some of these people get bored of Touhou games at their normal difficulty now and have never even seen R-Type stage 4. This doesn't mean that all old games are hard and all new bullet-pumped games are easy. Just don't be stupid and take it on a case by case basis.

5. fuck treasure
Ikaruga is a great game, but insanely unorthodox. Everybody should play it, but nobody should let it mess with their opinion on the entire genre a whole lot. Radiant Silvergun really fucks with rule 3 by making you play for scoring. And Gradius V is cool, but man is it long, with just a little too many slow sections. They're clearly a talented bunch, but don't believe anybody who claims them to be the unquestionable best in the genre. I've seen people try to get into shooters by doing nothing but playing Radiant Silvergun for score, getting turned off, and walking away from the genre entirely. I just Do Not Get It.

Making my way through the thread now.

Love this post! (^____^)
 
True true

Basically spots I always dread/difficutly spikes are: Spider boss, navigating trash, and service tunnel with the worms

Oh, exactly the points I hated the most as well. Don't forget the train part where you have to dodge them and one mistake means Game Over.

I think Sine Mora was ok, an average shmup plagued with some horrid design choices (the killer piano put me off the game instantly the two times I got caught by it, ugh), sporting pretty nice graphics and a stylish world.

It has achieved something though: it introduced a lot of people to the genre this gen and for that I can deal with it. We needed that kind of "hi-fi" releases with great graphics and fluff to catch the attention of the crowd. But I would take an Einhander with its german taunting or an R-Type Delta with the deformed alien babies in crystals over Sine Mora any day.

So, back to indie shmups, we are preparing the ALLTYNEX games localizations: Kamui, RefleX and ALLTYNEX Second. SITER SKAIN for the win.

shaowebb > I replied to your comment about the ∀kashicverse. Wallet ready! :P
 
So I was looking around and saw that MuchiMuchi/Pink Sweets is about to be restocked over at playasia under the "Cave the Best" label for $40. I think I might be picking it up. Just thought I would give a heads up. Whats the consensus here on it anyways?
http://www.play-asia.com/Muchi_Muchi_Pork_Pink_Sweets_Cave_Best_Version/paOS-13-71-em-49-en-70-5u8b.htm

I think it's one of Cave's best game.

Coincidently, STG Weekly just did a feature run on the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOEQKFTxf5A
 
Thanks to Sine Mora, I am now subscribing to this thread!

I think I'm gonna buy/play Under Defeat HD next

I think Sine Mora would be my second fave shmup after Under Defeat. I've gotten back into it these last couple as i've been meaning to try out the Arcade mode and do the alternative ending run on story mode.

The music and graphics are legendary for a shmup, imo the best i've seen/heard. What I like most is how dark it is, even though you are using a bunch of furries, they are all disfunctional in their own way and the game takes itself very seriously which is what I prefer in games/movies as opposed to the comedic/lighthearted approach. Also love the depth they have put into the story, voices etc and the unlockables - ship/pilot/power up combinations. I can't remember the last time I saw so much replayability in a shmup, actually R-Type Final had lots of replayability but I didn't enjoy the stages in that game as much. There are some real cheap parts like going through the caves with the worms and the bit where you have to hide in the garbage (this is as far as I can get on arcade, this bit is so cheap it almost ruins the game).

It's a shame there won't be a sequel. Horizontal scrollers are my fave, much prefer them to the vertical ones because you can squeeze in so much more detail/character on the graphics (under defeat is obviously the exception). I would love to see a sequel to Gynoug or Lords of Thunder. I like the ones where the enemies are deformed creatures/mutants etc.

Can anyone recommend any recent horizontal shmups/run n gun with these types of enemies and good graphics? As awesome as the CAVE games are I really wish they would do a couple of games with hi-res polys instead of sprites all the time. I haven't played the latest Thunderforce? Would this fit into what i'm looking for?
 
You are certainly allowed to like it and I am anything but an elite shmupper, but the things it does well aren't something I care about (especially within the context of this genre). I would like it more if it didn't punish you for using its mechanics - I think that's my biggest problem with it, or at least the most easily explainable. It's just kind of a chore to me, maybe if the weapons were better I'd like it more.

Also holy fucking shit Gradius V is delightful

Sine Mora is the kind of game I want to support, but it has a couple of significant system problems holding it back: enemy health (too high for the popcorn enemies), power ups flying off (ties in to enemies having too much health), and hard to see bullets in several places. Plus the garbage & maze levels are awful.

As an illustration of the design problem, the game gets much, much easier if you plug in a turbo adapter. That shouldn't happen in a 2013 shooter.

But it's a lovely, stylish game telling an interesting story. I love seeing new approaches to shmups and new games bringing in more players. I just wish it wasn't saddled with the above problems. Strengthen the base power level for the gun (or reduce "popcorn" enemy health), make power ups persist on screen longer by bouncing off walls, and tweak the designs a bit and you have a great game.
 
So I played Sine Mora for the first time yesterday and loved it. Then I played some Progear and realized the developers must have loved it cause it seems to be a very similar game to me.
 
Can anyone recommend any recent horizontal shmups/run n gun with these types of enemies and good graphics? As awesome as the CAVE games are I really wish they would do a couple of games with hi-res polys instead of sprites all the time. I haven't played the latest Thunderforce? Would this fit into what i'm looking for?

Most people didn't like Thunder Force VI, but I enjoyed it.

I say try it out.
 
Sine Mora is the kind of game I want to support, but it has a couple of significant system problems holding it back: enemy health (too high for the popcorn enemies), power ups flying off (ties in to enemies having too much health), and hard to see bullets in several places. Plus the garbage & maze levels are awful.

As an illustration of the design problem, the game gets much, much easier if you plug in a turbo adapter. That shouldn't happen in a 2013 shooter.

But it's a lovely, stylish game telling an interesting story. I love seeing new approaches to shmups and new games bringing in more players. I just wish it wasn't saddled with the above problems. Strengthen the base power level for the gun (or reduce "popcorn" enemy health), make power ups persist on screen longer by bouncing off walls, and tweak the designs a bit and you have a great game.
I agree with your suggested changes, and would like to add that the game shouldnt punish you for using its only mechanics. Holding down fire to get the highest possible score is terribly dull. Yes, the time shit makes the game easier, but so does the spirit form in Akai Katana. Difference is AK REWARDS you for using spirit and the result is a more enjoyable game. Make the player earn the ability to manipulate time then get a multiplier when it is activated.
 
Can anyone recommend any recent horizontal shmups/run n gun with these types of enemies and good graphics? As awesome as the CAVE games are I really wish they would do a couple of games with hi-res polys instead of sprites all the time. I haven't played the latest Thunderforce? Would this fit into what i'm looking for?

They tried with Death Smiles 2. Never again. Not until they hire some decent 3D artist, at least.

Also, Akai Katana looks really good, despite using sprites (it's entirely hd, backgrounds included).

Akai-Katana-001.jpg
 
And if you want to start naming shmups outside of arcade series and ports, there are plenty of console exclusives that are "vertizontal".
Xoxak I love you.

...Like the Aleste series, Zanac (oh wait, that is arcade)...
 
Under Defeat HD is on it's way via Amazon Prime, so yipee!

So GAF, how would you rate Super Stardust Delta in the pantheon? ...I mean, I already have it. I was just wondering general opinions in this thread

Also, here's hoping I can find Gradius V for a decent price on eBay (I tend to go for Mint copies only)

And i'm assuming no one cares for 1942 Joint Strike?
 
Under Defeat HD is on it's way via Amazon Prime, so yipee!

So GAF, how would you rate Super Stardust Delta in the pantheon? ...I mean, I already have it. I was just wondering general opinions in this thread

Also, here's hoping I can find Gradius V for a decent price on eBay (I tend to go for Mint copies only)

And i'm assuming no one cares for 1942 Joint Strike?
Are you just looking at PSN stuff? If you're looking to get into this genre do yourself a favor and get an Xbox. Unmatched in quality and quantity in shmups (unless we're talkin' PC Engine or Mega Drive era, and even then you could still make an argument for quality)
 
Preordered that Pink Bullets mag as well. Not sure why, except that it was cheap. I don't really play modern shmups - Dreamcast is my most modern shmup system.
 
So, the discussion of Akai Katana made me want to play it again. I had barely touched the game when Rising Star brought it out over here, and when I got my JP Xbox with Mushi HD and Under Defeat, I got distracted by those and never went back.

You can probably see where this is going - US version of Akai Katana is region locked. :/ And the UK version of DDP Resurrection works on NA consoles but is locked out of JP consoles. I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised, given that the Cave releases of both were region locked. I have a US box to play them on, but this is my main shmupping box, so it kind of sucks. At least the Platinum Hits/Cave the best versions on Play-Asia are cheap now, so picking up AK, Resurrection, and Resurrection BL.

I also found a copy of DaiOuJou on ebay for $60 new - worth it?
 
Yeah,

Both the 5pb titles are worth it. Buy. They are fairly cheap now...Ketsui being the cheaper.

As for playing what and on which system I tend to use the J-360 for a tate setup and verticals and the US system for everything else and most of the region-frees. Things like Ginga get played on the NA system.

Life has gotten easier now that your gamertag is stored in the cloud...used to be a hassle having tp swap memory cards the first couple of years.
 
Yeah,

Both the 5pb titles are worth it. Buy. They are fairly cheap now...Ketsui being the cheaper.

As for playing what and on which system I tend to use the J-360 for a tate setup and verticals and the US system for everything else and most of the region-frees. Things like Ginga get played on the NA system.

Life has gotten easier now that your gamertag is stored in the cloud...used to be a hassle having tp swap memory cards the first couple of years.

Thanks, and yeah, the cloud saves & gamertag have been a godsend for playing on multiple consoles. But at this point I've all but decided to move my JP box into this Vewlix clone for fightsticks (yeah, it's a bit ugly, but with some paint and decals (I'm thinking a Cave logo on white for the marquee and side) it will look decent and is way cheaper than any other option). I want to have all my shmups on the same box for that.

Going to grab this copy of DOJ while it's available, P-A, A-A, and NCSX are all out of stock.

Edit: Play Asia's "related items" algorithm is very sad. Related items to DaiOuJou include The Darkness 2 and Warhammer 40K. :P

Caladrius "how to play" section is open.

http://caladrius.mossjp.co.jp/howtoplay_base.html

Shit looks complicated. I just hope it all those gauges and buttons work together seamlessly during combat.

Christ, looks like at least 5 buttons? :(

Aw, hell. I can barely handle Espgaluda II
I can't handle Espgaluda II :(
 
Aw, hell. I can barely handle Espgaluda II
I can't handle Espgaluda II :(

This worries me because Espgaluda II was the next 360 shmup on my list (since I've already got DDP:Res, Mushi Futari 1.5, MMP/PS, Akai Katana, Deathsmiles and Guwange) and I have been planning on converting my silly 8 button TE into a more conservative 3 button stick. But it seems like the only thing that makes Espgaluda II a 4 button game is the dedicated rapid fire button. ... Right?
 
This worries me because Espgaluda II was the next 360 shmup on my list (since I've already got DDP:Res, Mushi Futari 1.5, MMP/PS, Akai Katana, Deathsmiles and Guwange) and I have been planning on converting my silly 8 button TE into a more conservative 3 button stick. But it seems like the only thing that makes Espgaluda II a 4 button game is the dedicated rapid fire button. ... Right?

With the exception of PS I have no idea how you played any of those games on your list with three buttons. That's hardcore masochism. 4 buttons (3 on top and 4 on thumb position below 1) is the defacto Cave standard for a reason; heck, Espgaluda II in the arcades placed configuration of the 3rd and 4th button as an option with equal billing to character select.
 
To be fair most of my issues with Esp II are that I'm too dense to figure out Kakusei, Zekushitai, and Kakusei Over.

------

Sine Mora Vita is 30% off, 50% off for PS+ members.
 
With the exception of PS I have no idea how you played any of those games on your list with three buttons. That's hardcore masochism. 4 buttons (3 on top and 4 on thumb position below 1) is the defacto Cave standard for a reason; heck, Espgaluda II in the arcades placed configuration of the 3rd and 4th button as an option with equal billing to character select.

How would a 4th button improve Deathsmiles and Mushihimesama Futari? I'll definitely try 3 button playthroughs of DDP and AK before I commit to anything, but it seems like autofire is a convenience and not a necessity.

/edit/ anyway a 4 button stick is still on the table as it opens the door for SNK/anime/soul calibur stuff too. The important thing is that a 5 button shmup is very daunting and I hope there's a way around it.
 
How would a 4th button improve Deathsmiles and Mushihimesama Futari? I'll definitely try 3 button playthroughs of DDP and AK before I commit to anything, but it seems like autofire is a convenience and not a necessity.

/edit/ anyway a 4 button stick is still on the table as it opens the door for SNK/anime/soul calibur stuff too. The important thing is that a 5 button shmup is very daunting and I hope there's a way around it.

I actually play Deathsmiles with 5 buttons. Don't want to be lasering all the time and having two fire buttons means two rapid fire buttons.

In most Cave games the scoring system places heavy emphasis on being able to switch between hold-shot and rapid-shot very quickly, and the switch actually happens faster than possible with a single button when both are used. Also, there are cases like the original Mushihimesama where you actually want to rapid fire the rapid fire button to get special fire states (if you do this, you stop your options from firing as well, so extended score milking becomes possible).

It's also definitely a requirement in DFK BL, where holding both shot and rapid shot produces the strongest shot type (the one that increases the red meter).

Also, we're trying to stop you from developing carpal tunnel at 30.
 
Speaking of shooters and aspect ratio...what is Sine Mora's? I was playing a bit yesterday and was struck just how wide it was. Seemed like 2.35 almost. Maybe I had it set wrong, but I could not find any settings to change and everything looked correct. Is it window-boxed on the Vita?
 
Are you just looking at PSN stuff? If you're looking to get into this genre do yourself a favor and get an Xbox. Unmatched in quality and quantity in shmups (unless we're talkin' PC Engine or Mega Drive era, and even then you could still make an argument for quality)

Nah, sold off my Xbox years back

I only regret not being to still play Panzer Dragoon Orta, Dead Rising, and Halo ...so yeah, not that big of a loss
 
Does anyone know if there is anyplace that sells Trouble Witches for PC? Apparently it was originally made for PC and when it went elsewhere they added 2 characters and play modes. I'd like to try the original and see what changed if anything in the levels.

I dig the whole place area effect on screen to slow bullets, then kill the enemy that made them to turn them into gold mechanic a lot. Are there more games like this? I dont know anything about their other project Hurricane of the Varstray Collateral Damage yet.
 
I just have to post this...

Someone sent us a 1 Life Clear of Satazius in the hardest mode, using a custom OST. No death, no miss, pure brutality. This, this is madness of the bloody good kind.

You have to see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53QBNlZX_jo

Insane was the way Satazius was meant to be played according to the devs. I can see why, heh.

For those wondering, this is available on Steam.

Might be right up the alley of those looking for old school horis and something other than bullet hell.
 
Speaking of shooters and aspect ratio...what is Sine Mora's? I was playing a bit yesterday and was struck just how wide it was. Seemed like 2.35 almost. Maybe I had it set wrong, but I could not find any settings to change and everything looked correct. Is it window-boxed on the Vita?

I don't know about the Vita, but it's letterboxed on PC and on 360. It's meant to be so wide, you can't change the aspect ratio. It makes sense, because you need a lot of room to take down every enemy with the terrible weapons you have most of the time.
 
... unless you were looking to get into shmups.
Honestly, it's probably better that way. Now if Agent really gets into STGs there are fewer reasons to hesitate when it comes to importing a JP 360—no time/monetary investment in an NA/EU console or NA/EU-locked games to deal with.
 
I just have to post this...

Someone sent us a 1 Life Clear of Satazius in the hardest mode, using a custom OST. No death, no miss, pure brutality. This, this is madness of the bloody good kind.

You have to see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53QBNlZX_jo

Insane was the way Satazius was meant to be played according to the devs. I can see why, heh.

For those wondering, this is available on Steam.

Might be right up the alley of those looking for old school horis and something other than bullet hell.

Wow that was...that was wow.
I absolutely suck at Gradius style shooters so that was amazing to me. Strangely I do better with Bullethell's and especially well with games that have any sort of convert bullet to medals mechanic. I guess I do better with pattern recognition than enemy memorization.

BTW any word on the Siter Skain trilogy release dates?
 
I bought Under Defeat HD from a gaffer, and I wanna know if it is normal the slight hiccup when you are shot. It is incredible annoying.

Otherwise, a great game.
 
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