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[Freezie KO]

You could rename it the "Men's Issues" movement if you wanted to, but it wouldn't make much of a difference if people already have a vendetta against it.

You could call it "menimism" because people want to menimize the issues.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I don't think it would work. If the mother decides not to have the abortion, and sues for child support the justice system's goal should still be to maintain the child's interests rather than the parents. Unfortunately, that would mean the father (in this case) would have to pay child support. Better this than to have the child suffer.

I'm not sure why so many men cannot see this (not necessarily including you in here as my impression is that you would support the child if it is born?).

I am not sure why this logic doesn't apply to abortion too. The justice system's goal should still be to maintain the child's interests rather than the parents. Unfortunately that would mean that the mother have to carry the child to term but better this than the child suffer abortion, yeah?


For the record, I approve of abortion and only expect an equivalent for men.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

I am not sure why this logic doesn't apply to abortion too. The justice system's goal should still be to maintain the child's interests rather than the parents. Unfortunately that would mean that the mother have to carry the child to term but better this than the child suffer abortion, yeah?


For the record, I approve of abortion and only expect an equivalent for men.

Unless men start becoming pregnant, I don't see your point.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Unless men start becoming pregnant, I don't see your point.

It's really quite simple and has been brought up multiple times in many threads, including this one.

Men need to be able to opt out of parenthood, either before there is a pregnancy or in the abortion window. As it stands men have no options after conception and women have many. Read my previous posts for details.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

The baby is "property of the woman" because it is reliant on the woman's body. Once it is born, then yes, it is up to the legal system.
It is much easier preventing pregnancy as a man than a woman.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I don't think that they are as mirrored as your construction implies.

In the former case, it is because there are posters who refuse to allow any discussion about women's issues and try to turn any topic about it into a discussion about men instead. In the latter case, it is because the men's rights framing of issues tends to be anti-feminist and misogynistic, so feminists are posting in response to implicit or explicit claims that feminism is to blame for whatever the men's rights advocates are suggesting, and arguing against explicit misogynistic claims. I don't think that the latter case can be much categorized as a devolution of the discussion when MRA is little more than a critique of feminism. So I think any discussion about the issues that men's rights advocates bring up - right or wrong - are going to have feminists replying because MRAs seem to start from a premise that feminism is hostile to men and all of men's issues and feminists disagree with this.

So...when men invade feminist topics it's because we're being mean but when women invade MRM topics, it's because they are defending themselves from those woman hating MRA's.

Holy shit, how biased can you be?

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

The baby is "property of the woman" because it is reliant on the woman's body. Once it is born, then yes, it is up to the legal system.
It is much easier preventing pregnancy as a man than a woman.

The law is what allows women to legally abort. The law CAN allow men to opt out too and sooner or later it will happen because choosing to be a parent instead of being forced into parenthood is a humans rights issue, just ask a feminist.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Once and if it is born, yes. Before no, it's property of the mother.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Well, this is a silly thread, men's rights and issues are inconse-

... Oh, I made this thread.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Some have suggested a name change. The MHRM, The Mens Human Rights Movement.

I would be in favor of a human rights movement that doesn't focus on the issues of one gender in particular. Like right now ther's some awful shit going on in Syria where men get caught up in the middle of the conflict and tortured and murdered by members of both conflict sides, at the same time the women and children get bombed out and can look forward to a future life under sharia law.
Meanwhile males and females in the west sit behind their PC's and get their panties in a twist over tropes in video games or the emasculation of the modern man (not excluding myself from these silly discussions).

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Once and if it is born, yes. Before no, it's property of the mother.

If it became illegal to abort, your property argument wouldn't work. I am telling you that it's the law that allows legal abortion in the first place and it's the same law that can give men an equivalent opt out. Waiting until after the baby is born would be unfair to the mother. She needs to know the status of the father while she is deciding if she wants to opt out.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Well, this is a silly thread, men's rights and issues are inconse-

... Oh, I made this thread.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

If it became illegal to abort, your property argument wouldn't work. I am telling you that it's the law that allows legal abortion in the first place and it's the same law that can give men an equivalent opt out. Waiting until after the baby is born would be unfair to the mother. She needs to know the status of the father while she is deciding if she wants to opt out.

That is actually a good point for the "male opt-out"-policy.

Without such a policy, mothers can expect that any child they birth will have the legally enforced financial support from the father, only to end up getting nothing as the deadbeat father avoids the payments. With this policy though, a mother could identify deadbeat fathers before she is in a position where she has a child - and chose to not have the child on the basis of her not being willing to bring a fatherless child into the world.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I would be in favor of a human rights movement that doesn't focus on the issues of one gender in particular. Like right now ther's some awful shit going on in Syria where men get caught up in the middle of the conflict and tortured and murdered by members of both conflict sides, at the same time the women and children get bombed out and can look forward to a future life under sharia law.
Meanwhile males and females in the west sit behind their PC's and get their panties in a twist over tropes in video games or the emasculation of the modern man (not excluding myself from these silly discussions).

I don't know how to respond to this....

I guess I can just say that there will always be something more important somewhere in the world and if we are going to wait until the world is almost perfect to deal with mens issues in the US, then we may as well quit now.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

The only way to enforce that would be to limit abortion rights and that's not exactly useful as abortions should be done as early as possible. Better yet is to stop all the abortion arguments and focus on sex ed and contraception and birth control which actually lowers abortion rates.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

I would be in favor of a human rights movement that doesn't focus on the issues of one gender in particular. Like right now ther's some awful shit going on in Syria where men get caught up in the middle of the conflict and tortured and murdered by members of both conflict sides, at the same time the women and children get bombed out and can look forward to a future life under sharia law.
Meanwhile males and females in the west sit behind their PC's and get their panties in a twist over tropes in video games or the emasculation of the modern man (not excluding myself from these silly discussions).

I want to agree with your post but you framed it in a rather dumb argument.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

That is actually a good point for the "male opt-out"-policy.

Without such a policy, mothers can expect that any child they birth will have the legally enforced financial support from the father, only to end up getting nothing as the deadbeat father avoids the payments. With this policy though, a mother could identify deadbeat fathers before she is in a position where she has a child - and chose to not have the child on the basis of her not being willing to bring a fatherless child into the world.

Why use the term deadbeat? Did you know that mothers default on child support more than men, percentage wise? I'll have to go find the stats that I know you will ask for, I haven't looked them up in a few years.

ETA: Ok, didn't find the old source I had but I did find this. It's old, from 2002 but as more moms get child support orders, so will more become "deadbeat moms". I only use that term to avoid confusion, I won't use it again.

The percentage of "deadbeat" moms is actually higher than that of dads who won't pay, even though mothers are more consistently awarded custody of children by the courts.

Census figures show only 57 percent of moms required to pay child support -- 385,000 women out of a total of 674,000 -- give up some or all of the money they owe. That leaves some 289,000 "deadbeat" mothers out there, a fact that has barely been reported in the media.

That compares with 68 percent of dads who pay up, according to the figures.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,59963,00.html#ixzz2O2FHlju0

 

[SquiddyCracker]

The only way to enforce that would be to limit abortion rights and that's not exactly useful as abortions should be done as early as possible.

I'm not entirely sure if that's what Vane is suggesting (I think he's suggesting the ol' "male abortion"-soluton).

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

The only way to enforce that would be to limit abortion rights and that's not exactly useful as abortions should be done as early as possible. Better yet is to stop all the abortion arguments and focus on sex ed and contraception and birth control which actually lowers abortion rates.

No, an opt out for men would have no affect on abortion rights.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

I'm not entirely sure if that's what Vane is suggesting (I think he's suggesting the ol' "male abortion"-soluton).

I only see this as a legal issue after if it born. And the case examples are of statutory rape cases which is another thing all together (most of them dropped their case in order not to be charged as statutory rape).

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I only see this as a legal issue after if it born. And the case examples are of statutory rape cases which is another thing all together (most of them dropped their case in order not to be charged as statutory rape).

Do you see abortion as a legal issue?

Also, on the subject of statutory rape, there have been cases where teenage males who were raped were ordered to pay child support. Here's one:

He was a 15-year-old kid with all the usual teenage sexual passions.

She was his neighbor--a 34-year-old mom, later convicted of statutory rape for engaging him in a romantic tryst that resulted in her getting pregnant.

But in a case that sets the term "deadbeat dad" on its ear, a California appeals court has ruled that the young man from San Luis Obispo, identified only as "Nathaniel J." in court records, is responsible for paying child support for the baby born of the illegal union.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...0045_1_pay-child-support-child-support-behalf

Here is a link that talks about more cases like this: http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/legally-obscene/

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Family laws in general are really sexist and outdated.
They're sexist to both men AND women, and need to be changed in many areas.

 

[RDreamer]

There are a good few issues listed on the front page that I feel like Feminism already tackles. In other words, once we get past the gender stereotypes and oppression of women as a whole then some of those problems will be unraveled right along with it. It's not oppression of men that lead to those things. It was the very gendered and patriarchal society we've come up with that did that, and that's something feminism already fights.

Things like divorce custody and child custody favoring women isn't because men are oppressed or something, it's because of the stereotype of the breadwinning man and the stay and home loving mother. The mother is supposedly more nurturing and caring while the masculine man goes out and works and stuff. Obviously in such a society it would be logical to put the child with the caring and nurturing mother that has taken care of it. Once you get to a society where women can have normal careers and do what they really want rather than being corralled into being housewives, this issue would/could go away. Adoption issues fit into that same sort of worldview.

Underreporting and reluctance to report violence and stuff on the male end is again, due to the patriarchal society. You can't report because you're supposed to be the one with all the power. It's that whole sort of worldview that men are at the top that would produce such a fear in admitting you've been wronged in such a way.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

There are a good few issues listed on the front page that I feel like Feminism already tackles. In other words, once we get past the gender stereotypes and oppression of women as a whole then some of those problems will be unraveled right along with it. It's not oppression of men that lead to those things. It was the very gendered and patriarchal society we've come up with that did that, and that's something feminism already fights.

Things like divorce custody and child custody favoring women isn't because men are oppressed or something, it's because of the stereotype of the breadwinning man and the stay and home loving mother. The mother is supposedly more nurturing and caring while the masculine man goes out and works and stuff. Obviously in such a society it would be logical to put the child with the caring and nurturing mother that has taken care of it. Once you get to a society where women can have normal careers and do what they really want rather than being corralled into being housewives, this issue would/could go away. Adoption issues fit into that same sort of worldview.

Underreporting and reluctance to report violence and stuff on the male end is again, due to the patriarchal society. You can't report because you're supposed to be the one with all the power. It's that whole sort of worldview that men are at the top that would produce such a fear in admitting you've been wronged in such a way.

Yes, yes we've heard it all before, it's the patriarchy oppressing men and feminism is already fighting it.

Well, feminism has been fighting it for 40 years so why hasn't this been addressed yet? I'll tell you why, because women are quite happy to continue getting the benefits of the broken family court system.

Men waiting on feminism to indirectly help them will be waiting alot longer than the 40 years they already waited.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Perhaps some enjoy a broken system, but I suspect quite a lot disagree with it.

Calling Devolution, your average feminist female specimin, to the stand:

Feminism doesn't really have a shitty name, just people who don't get the context.

 

[RDreamer]

Yes, yes we've heard it all before, it's the patriarchy oppressing men and feminism is already fighting it.

Well, feminism has been fighting it for 40 years so why hasn't this been addressed yet? I'll tell you why, because women are quite happy to continue getting the benefits of the broken family court system.

Men waiting on feminism to indirectly help them will be waiting alot longer than they 40 years they already waited.

You're acting as though feminism accomplished everything on the female side and there's nothing more to gain, so you're owed something right now. Your post reeks of entitlement and/or jealousy. Complete change in societal views and values take a lot of time, and 40 years is nothing.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

I don't think you know a lot about the feminist movement and what their aims are.

 

[coldvein]

Do you see abortion as a legal issue?

Also, on the subject of statutory rape, there have been cases where teenage males who were raped were ordered to pay child support.

wooooohohohowww that is fucked up.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

You're acting as though feminism accomplished everything on the female side and there's nothing more to gain, so you're owed something right now. Your post reeks of entitlement and/or jealousy. Complete change in societal views and values take a lot of time, and 40 years is nothing.

Ok, so say we all jump on board the femiship. When can we expect these issues to be addressed?

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Perhaps some enjoy a broken system, but I suspect quite a lot disagree with it.

Calling Devolution, your average feminist female specimin, to the stand:

Feminism is the perfect name for what it is. It is a movement that focuses on womens rights which is why we shouldn't expect that they will ever get around to helping men.

 

[RDreamer]

Ok, so say we all jump on board the femiship. When can we expect these issues to be addressed?

What, you want a fucking date here or something? Do you not understand that the fight for gender equality takes a while? Do you not understand that changing the typical family dynamic takes a while?

I'm not saying it's particularly wrong to bring up these issues. That's fine. Talk about them. But it comes across as really strange to me that it's a lot of times phrased in such a way that "oh these evil women are doing this to us! If we didn't yell about these things now they'd continue to hold these issues above our heads!" I mean, sure, fight for equality. Have fun, I'll be there with you on some of these issues, but some people here seem to act like feminism is literally a conspiracy to make women have power over men or something. Sure there might be a few nutcases in there, but that's most definitely not what the movement's about...

Feminism is the perfect name for what it is. It is a movement that focuses on womens rights which is why we shouldn't expect that they will ever get around to helping men.

They help men by helping gender equality. Holy fuck...

 

[Overdoziz]

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Family laws in general are really sexist and outdated.
They're sexist to both men AND women, and need to be changed in many areas.

Bingo and the change goes through the legal system by challenging cases not by mischaracterizing feminism which seeks gender equality not entitlement.

 

[Yasae]

If it became illegal to abort, your property argument wouldn't work. I am telling you that it's the law that allows legal abortion in the first place and it's the same law that can give men an equivalent opt out. Waiting until after the baby is born would be unfair to the mother. She needs to know the status of the father while she is deciding if she wants to opt out.

This assumes that it's as easy to abort as it is to not use a condom. Lie.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

What, you want a fucking date here or something? Do you not understand that the fight for gender equality takes a while? Do you not understand that changing the typical family dynamic takes a while?

I'm not saying it's particularly wrong to bring up these issues. That's fine. Talk about them. But it comes across as really strange to me that it's a lot of times phrased in such a way that "oh these evil women are doing this to us! If we didn't yell about these things now they'd continue to hold these issues above our heads!" I mean, sure, fight for equality. Have fun, I'll be there with you on some of these issues, but some people here seem to act like feminism is literally a conspiracy to make women have power over men or something. Sure there might be a few nutcases in there, but that's most definitely not what the movement's about...




They help men by helping gender equality. Holy fuck...

This thread is full of people who believe that the MHRM shouldn't exist because feminism exists and is the only movement we need.

What is your view on that?

 

[les papillons sexuels]

They help men by helping gender equality. Holy fuck...

I respectfully disagree with your assertion.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Bingo and the change goes through the legal system by challenging cases not by mischaracterizing feminism which seeks gender equality not entitlement.

Rather than argue with you about feminism. This thread is about the mens rights movement. Do you believe that the MHRM is not needed too?

This assumes that it's as easy to abort as it is to not use a condom. Lie.

Are you one of those "keep it in your pants" people?

 

[RDreamer]

This thread is full of people who believe that the MHRM shouldn't exist because feminism exists and is the only movement we need.

What is your view on that?

I feel like throwing your energy together into the movement that's already started with the goal of gender equality (feminism) would probably be a better use of your time than creating a separate movement that attempts to try and play victim and blames things backwards at women again.

I mean, I have a feminist wife, and she's brought up all of the issues I mentioned well before the men's rights movement did.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I feel like throwing your energy together into the movement that's already started with the goal of gender equality (feminism) would probably be a better use of your time than creating a separate movement that attempts to try and play victim and blames things backwards at women again.

I mean, I have a feminist wife, and she's brought up all of the issues I mentioned well before the men's rights movement did.

So you want us to go into the feminist movement and start changing the course and in the process creating more in-fighting? I don't think anyone would appreciate that.

Also, playing victim? Look, if that's how you view mens issues just say so right now.

 

[RDreamer]

So you want us to go into the feminist movement and start changing the course and in the process creating more in-fighting? I don't think anyone would appreciate that.

That already is the course. In the things I mentioned, by tearing down the partriarchal society we've built up they will be torn down with it.

Also, playing victim? Look, if that's how you view mens issues just say so right now.

Well you sure sound like you're playing victim:

Ok, so say we all jump on board the femiship. When can we expect these issues to be addressed?

Yes, yes we've heard it all before, it's the patriarchy oppressing men and feminism is already fighting it.

Well, feminism has been fighting it for 40 years so why hasn't this been addressed yet? I'll tell you why, because women are quite happy to continue getting the benefits of the broken family court system.

Men waiting on feminism to indirectly help them will be waiting alot longer than the 40 years they already waited.

You sure sound like you're playing a crybaby victim to me. Even if there were merits in a secondary movement with these aims, you're sure not doing a good job in displaying it here.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

That already is the course. In the things I mentioned, by tearing down the partriarchal society we've built up they will be torn down with it.




Well you sure sound like you're playing victim:





You sure sound like you're playing a crybaby victim to me. Even if there were merits in a secondary movement with these aims, you're sure not doing a good job in displaying it here.

Here's the problem. Men talking about mens issues are often accused of whining, even in a thread about Mens Rights issues. Since you are one of those types, I don't want to talk to you anymore.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Are you one of those "keep it in your pants" people?

I don't see why you shouldn't be expected to do so if you're not ready for the possibility of a child and don't want to use a condom. What the hell are you even arguing here?

 

[Mesoian]

Oh my god this thread.

 

[RDreamer]

Here's the problem. Men talking about mens issues are often accused of whining, even in a thread about Mens Rights issues. Since you are one of those types, I don't want to talk to you anymore.

Well I'm accusing you of whining that equality hasn't been fully achieved yet for some reason. I'm also about to accuse you of being a paranoid misogynist for saying women "are quite happy to continue getting the benefits of the broken family court system." You're also, you know, playing the victim in this very post.

The thing is that feminism isn't just about "women's issues." It's about gender equality and taking down the patriarchal society we have built. By taking that down you do tackle men's issues. The society we've built with the gender stereotypes we have do have some ill gotten effects on men, too. Feminism has already stated this.

 

[wsoxfan1214]

Here's the problem. Men talking about mens issues are often accused of whining, even in a thread about Mens Rights issues. Since you are one of those types, I don't want to talk to you anymore.

Ah, he makes a legitimate point and you bail on the debate while playing victim again and proving his point. How surprising.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

I don't see why you shouldn't be expected to do so if you're not ready for the possibility of a child and don't want to use a condom. What the hell are you even arguing here?

I am arguing in favor of men having a legal opt out of parenthood.

 

[Douche McBaggins The 3rd]

Vane, stop replying to RDreamer. He doesn't get it. He lacks empathy for mankind. Though to be fair, so do most people. Hell most people won't even consider men's rights unless someone they know gets raked over the coals. It never even occurs to most people how bad men can get taken in certain areas of life.

Oh well. Via Con Dios. Mea Culpa and all those other sayings that people seem to think come from my country.

 

[Vane_MagicCity]

Ah, he makes a legitimate point and you bail on the debate while playing victim again and proving his point. How surprising.

Oh, you are going to do it too?

 

[wsoxfan1214]

I am arguing in favor of men having a legal opt out of parenthood.

How about you use a condom instead of getting to the point of having to opt out of parenthood? If you're not ready for a child, why would you do anything that would lead to you having to opt out?

This isn't discrimination against men. This is common sense.

 

[RDreamer]

Vane, stop replying to RDreamer. He doesn't get it. He lacks empathy for mankind. Though to be fair, so do most people. Hell most people won't even consider men's rights unless someone they know gets raked over the coals. It never even occurs to most people how bad men can get taken in certain areas of life.

Oh well. Via Con Dios. Mea Culpa and all those other sayings that people seem to think come from my country.

I really struggle here. Is this like... mega sarcasm?