Isn't the link to FFVII in FFX-2? Not FFX.
We can go back in time to 2003 and have the "X-2 is non canon! No FF sequels ever! Square is dead!" arguments again but that just sort of proves my point further.
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We can go back in time to 2003 and have the "X-2 is non canon! No FF sequels ever! Square is dead!" arguments again but that just sort of proves my point further.
I should be doing hw
Member
hope they use this quality model in-game and battle for X-2
It's probably going to look better than that if they work they're doing on the models for X is any indication.
I really don't see where you're going with this. It isn't about whether X-2 is canon or non-canon. This sort of argument is what fanboys like to have to protect their continuity and "official" reality. None of that really matters. The Star Wars prequels being total shit does not hurt my enjoyment of the original Trilogy. I don't have to pretend they don't exist, I just don't feel their existence has any impact on the original material. The prequels also contradict a lot of expanded universe stuff made after the original trilogy, but so what? it doesn't mean they don't exist.
The point is that someone enjoying a piece of work is allowed to enjoy it in isolation. There is nothing in FFX which connects it to FFVII. FFX-2 does connect the FFVII and FFX universes, but that's a matter of the larger continuity. It's not really important to a lot of people.
There is enough evidence in both Empire and Star Wars that they are linked.
Same goes for LOTR and the Hobbit.
Pray point out the evidence in X, X-2, and VII that support a link. Try not to say 'Mako' or 'Shinra' as they aren't evidence enough by themselves, just names.
Then please explain how you reconcile what I pointed out just prior - that there is far too much evidence in the three games opposed to the notion they exist together for it to work.
The only evidence for the link is authorial statement after the fact. But it's not strong evidence, and it overwhelmed by evidence to the opposite, so it is to be disregarded.
...The entire debate started with Suairyu saying they don't exist ("aren't true").
And I also said exactly what you said above: The linking of the two worlds doesn't change a thing or change the enjoyment of FF7 or FFX. You're actually agreeing with me.
What are you talking about? Hobbit, Star Wars, both were standalones until the author decided to make additions and changes.
That's exactly what Nojima did. He wrote a story and then decided to make additions and changes. The "evidence" is literally from the creator.
You're literally doing what you said you weren't doing: Denying the author's own words because you don't like it, yet are willing to accept the author's changes if you like them, i.e. SW, Hobbit.
This is the last time (probably not!) I'm getting in the middle of a fanboy discussion then! Lol. The connections exist, but I just don't think it's relevant to the quality of the original game.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Wait, how does X-2 link 7 and 10?
FF X world and FF VII worlds aren't the same:
-from the Ultimania
They share the same universe, not the same world.
It isn't; that's my entire point. As said above, you're actually agreeing with me.
In X-2, there are a few characters (Rin, Shinra) that say they plan to develop technology to extract the energy of the Farplane to be used for cities. Then we see the FF7 Shin-Ra logo on some of Shinra's creations.
Nojima then said later on that he thought it'd be funny that a nice kid like Shinra had awful decedents like President Shin-Ra and Rufus.
It's not a game-changing thing. It's almost a joke he threw in for the fanboys. The only debate is with extreme fanboys who want to deny it because they don't like the idea, despite it having zero impact on anything.
That's what I get for jumping blindly into the middle of arguments about FFVII and FFX!
I never argued X was standalone. That was duckroll. I argued that the proposed link between X/-2 and VII is incorrect and unworkable, despite what the author intends.
Should Nomura then go back to X and X-2, completely gut out how magic works, completely alter the geography of the planet, completely replace the established historical timeline and mythology, then do much the same to VII, then yes, I will happily accept the connection.
Tolkien did much the same with the Hobbit - we now accept it as linked with LOTR because we read the updated version.
Lucas wrote the sequels to Star Wars as sequels. There was no "after the fact" shenanigans there. When I say "after the fact", I mean an author making a statement outside of the work, after the fact. So Nomura saying X/-2 is connected to VII after the fact.
Again: what evidence is there that the two stories are linked outside of the author's comments made outside of the work itself?
So explain its blatantness, rather than saying that dismissively.
Fair enough. That I didn't know. That helps. Magic is still a problem.
Mario007 already showed how you're wrong about the planets being linked, so your argument there is irrelevant.
It wasn't Nomura, it was Nojima, who is the actual writer. And there is nothing unworkable about the connection, they literally say they go to a different planet. Different planet, different rules. So that negates everything about the "established mythology."
There's no "after the fact" here. FFx-2 had deliberate storyline and dialogue indicating this plot point...hey, look at that, Shinra is already making a familiar logo:
And direct from the writer:
"Kazushige Nojima: '...After quitting the Gullwings, Shinra received enormous financial support from Rin, and began trying to use Vegnagun to siphon Mako Energy from the Farplane. But, he is unable to complete the system for utilizing this energy in his generation, and in the future, when traveling to distant planets becomes possible, the Shinra Company is founded on another world, or something like that....... That would happen about 1000 years after this story, I think.'"
When FFX-2 was first released, long before Nojima made any comment confirming the link, there was already a lot of debate about the similarities between the Farplane as a potential energy source, and the lifestream powering Mako reactors in FFVII. The fact that the character exploring this phenomena is named Shinra could be seen as either an actual hint to there being a connection, or a fun nod to FFVII.
This isn't some new theory which only existed after the Ultimania was released. His comments only confirmed that as the writer, he was on the side of one specific interpretation. The game certainly doesn't specifically spell it out, but there is definitely intentionally enough evidence to suggest such a theory has weight behind it.
And for more proof, actual in-game dialogue:
**Dialogue with Shinra from Final Fantasy X-2***
Shinra
"Aha..."
Yuna
"What are you looking at?"
Shinra
"Farplane data."
Shinra
"The more I study it, the more fascinating it gets. There's limitless energy
swirling around in there."
Yuna
"Limitless energy?"
Shinra
"The life force that flows through our planet...I think."
Shinra
"With a little work, we could probably extract the energy in a useable form."
Brother
"Sweet!"
Shinra
"Of course, that'd take generations."
Brother
"That's no fun!"
Buddy
"Well, still, it is something worth shooting for."
Yuna
"Think how much Spira would change if we ever got it to work!"
Yuna
"Maybe one day we could build a city full of light, one that never sleeps!"
Shinra
"No doubt about it."
----
***Dialogue with Rikku from Final Fantasy X-2: International+Last Mission***
Paine
"These days, people are always looking for sunken machina."
Rikku
"Yup-yup!"
Yuna
"Oh? Has Shinra been helping you with that?"
Rikku
"Ahh, now that you bring it up..."
Rikku
"Well, he left the ship and got together with Rin, and what do you think all
that research they've been doing is about?"
---
***Dialogue with Rin from Final Fantasy X-2***
Rin
"You are suggesting that my decision to upgrade the machina resulted in a
number of casualties... ... and that I tried to cover it up?"
Yuna
"You put the investigation in our hands because we were amateurs. You hoped we
would botch the case."
Yuna
"And then, I kept calling you even though I didn't have any leads."
Yuna
"You would have objected to the meaningless interruptions, if you really
wanted to solve the case."
Rin
"I see. It appears that I have underestimated you, Yuna."
Rikku
"Why, Rin?"
Rin
"If word got out that machina pose a danger, people would fear them and stop
using them."
Paine
"So Yevon's not alone in sweeping things under the rug."
Rin
"I firmly believe that machina are an indispensable part of Spira's
development."
Rin
"Even if there is another incident, I intend to conceal the evidence."
Yuna
"You really think people will follow you that way?"
Rin
"I am not alone in my thinking."
Rin
"We are researching ways to extract the vast energy that sleeps in Spira, and
use it to power machina."
Paine
"You're a jackass."
Rin
"I will take that as a compliment."
----
And the interview that puts the nail in the coffin in the "But they have different magic!":
***Interview with Yoshinori Kitase and Kazushige Nojima in the Final Fantasy X
Ultimania Omega*** (Page 191)
**FFVII and FFX are connected?!**
--"Previously, with a conversation in the FFX Scenario Ultimania, you made
certain inferences, and since it's been about half a year since then, is there
anything new you'd like to clarify about FFX?"
Kitase
"That's true...... Now that FFX International is out and we're in the future,
I'm in a predicament; it really isn't that hard to think of another story
[set] in that world; room for expansion was left possible there without too
much difficulty, don't you think? Speaking conversely, FFX received a splendid
reception and made us think of adding to it."
Nojima
"After FFVII was finished, we were easily able to add Zack's open[-ended role]
into the International version. But, with X, there was an older story with a
partly-finished world and an opening that this new one could be added to and
[, in doing] so[,] complete it."
Kitase
"So, you could say [in terms of] time, Nojima-san decided to designate it to
act as a sequel to VII, if you follow me."
--"It's a sequel to VII!!"
Kitase
"Well, there was a joke right there. Simply put, in VII's ending, Holy came,
and the next thing you knew, it was over without closing things up, and then
it was the "500 years later" [scene] in the future. There's a large margin
buried there. A margin for the imagination. Nojima-san and Toriyama are going
to be filling something of that with VII, though, while they're at their best
and can do it."
--"So, will it become a sequel to VII's story?"
Nojima
"I have a strong feeling that they're going to be connected."
--"Huh, so VII and X ARE connected?"
Nojima
"Well, there's not many specifics to it. I know that what becomes of people
when they die is among them; you could say that it's basically the same. Both
[concepts came to] function along the same line of thought as I wrote the
stories. Sometimes my thoughts just flow out like that, even though pyreflies
distinctly aren't green."
--"When you speak of the dead becoming [something] green, do you perhaps
[mean]......?"
Nojima
"Yes. In my mind, pyreflies and VII's Lifestream are the same substance."
Kitase
"Nojima-san's even considering making use of an idea like this -- [with] an
addition to the idea of life origin -- in a sequel to FFX International.
That's just a little bit of the thought that's been going into what to do with
VII."
Nojima
"That's right. There's something like the Lifestream [in X's world
also]......."
--"'An addition to the idea of life origin'......does that mean you're going
to revise life origin concepts or something?"
Nojima
"I can't say......it's a secret (laughs)."
Kitase
"It's a surprise with how someone from the story conducts theirself with
regards to the Farplane."
---
In fact, if anything, this suggests that Nojima and Kitase wanted to take this FFx-FF7 idea FURTHER with future games, especially with their veiled winks and hints.
The fact that Square got bogged down with FF12/13/14 probably wrecked those plans, though.
**Dialogue with Shinra from Final Fantasy X-2***
Shinra
"Aha..."
Yuna
"What are you looking at?"
Shinra
"Farplane data."
Shinra
"The more I study it, the more fascinating it gets. There's limitless energy
swirling around in there."
Yuna
"Limitless energy?"
Shinra
"The life force that flows through our planet...I think."
Shinra
"With a little work, we could probably extract the energy in a useable form."
Brother
"Sweet!"
Shinra
"Of course, that'd take generations."
Brother
"That's no fun!"
Buddy
"Well, still, it is something worth shooting for."
Yuna
"Think how much Spira would change if we ever got it to work!"
Yuna
"Maybe one day we could build a city full of light, one that never sleeps!"
Shinra
"No doubt about it."
----
***Dialogue with Rikku from Final Fantasy X-2: International+Last Mission***
Paine
"These days, people are always looking for sunken machina."
Rikku
"Yup-yup!"
Yuna
"Oh? Has Shinra been helping you with that?"
Rikku
"Ahh, now that you bring it up..."
Rikku
"Well, he left the ship and got together with Rin, and what do you think all
that research they've been doing is about?"
---
***Dialogue with Rin from Final Fantasy X-2***
Rin
"You are suggesting that my decision to upgrade the machina resulted in a
number of casualties... ... and that I tried to cover it up?"
Yuna
"You put the investigation in our hands because we were amateurs. You hoped we
would botch the case."
Yuna
"And then, I kept calling you even though I didn't have any leads."
Yuna
"You would have objected to the meaningless interruptions, if you really
wanted to solve the case."
Rin
"I see. It appears that I have underestimated you, Yuna."
Rikku
"Why, Rin?"
Rin
"If word got out that machina pose a danger, people would fear them and stop
using them."
Paine
"So Yevon's not alone in sweeping things under the rug."
Rin
"I firmly believe that machina are an indispensable part of Spira's
development."
Rin
"Even if there is another incident, I intend to conceal the evidence."
Yuna
"You really think people will follow you that way?"
Rin
"I am not alone in my thinking."
Rin
"We are researching ways to extract the vast energy that sleeps in Spira, and
use it to power machina."
Paine
"You're a jackass."
Rin
"I will take that as a compliment."
----
And the interview that puts the nail in the coffin in the "But they have different magic!":
***Interview with Yoshinori Kitase and Kazushige Nojima in the Final Fantasy X
Ultimania Omega*** (Page 191)
**FFVII and FFX are connected?!**
--"Previously, with a conversation in the FFX Scenario Ultimania, you made
certain inferences, and since it's been about half a year since then, is there
anything new you'd like to clarify about FFX?"
Kitase
"That's true...... Now that FFX International is out and we're in the future,
I'm in a predicament; it really isn't that hard to think of another story
[set] in that world; room for expansion was left possible there without too
much difficulty, don't you think? Speaking conversely, FFX received a splendid
reception and made us think of adding to it."
Nojima
"After FFVII was finished, we were easily able to add Zack's open[-ended role]
into the International version. But, with X, there was an older story with a
partly-finished world and an opening that this new one could be added to and
[, in doing] so[,] complete it."
Kitase
"So, you could say [in terms of] time, Nojima-san decided to designate it to
act as a sequel to VII, if you follow me."
--"It's a sequel to VII!!"
Kitase
"Well, there was a joke right there. Simply put, in VII's ending, Holy came,
and the next thing you knew, it was over without closing things up, and then
it was the "500 years later" [scene] in the future. There's a large margin
buried there. A margin for the imagination. Nojima-san and Toriyama are going
to be filling something of that with VII, though, while they're at their best
and can do it."
--"So, will it become a sequel to VII's story?"
Nojima
"I have a strong feeling that they're going to be connected."
--"Huh, so VII and X ARE connected?"
Nojima
"Well, there's not many specifics to it. I know that what becomes of people
when they die is among them; you could say that it's basically the same. Both
[concepts came to] function along the same line of thought as I wrote the
stories. Sometimes my thoughts just flow out like that, even though pyreflies
distinctly aren't green."
--"When you speak of the dead becoming [something] green, do you perhaps
[mean]......?"
Nojima
"Yes. In my mind, pyreflies and VII's Lifestream are the same substance."
Kitase
"Nojima-san's even considering making use of an idea like this -- [with] an
addition to the idea of life origin -- in a sequel to FFX International.
That's just a little bit of the thought that's been going into what to do with
VII."
Nojima
"That's right. There's something like the Lifestream [in X's world
also]......."
--"'An addition to the idea of life origin'......does that mean you're going
to revise life origin concepts or something?"
Nojima
"I can't say......it's a secret (laughs)."
Kitase
"It's a surprise with how someone from the story conducts theirself with
regards to the Farplane."
---
In fact, if anything, this suggests that Nojima and Kitase wanted to take this FFx-FF7 idea FURTHER with future games, especially with their veiled winks and hints.
The fact that Square got bogged down with FF12/13/14 probably wrecked those plans, though.
PedroPanache
Member
Mario007 already showed how you're wrong about the planets being linked, so your argument there is irrelevant.
It wasn't Nomura, it was Nojima, who is the actual writer. And there is nothing unworkable about the connection, they literally say they go to a different planet. Different planet, different rules. So that negates everything about the "established mythology."
There's no "after the fact" here. FFx-2 had deliberate storyline and dialogue indicating this plot point...hey, look at that:
And direct from the writer:
"Kazushige Nojima: '...After quitting the Gullwings, Shinra received enormous financial support from Rin, and began trying to use Vegnagun to siphon Mako Energy from the Farplane. But, he is unable to complete the system for utilizing this energy in his generation, and in the future, when traveling to distant planets becomes possible, the Shinra Company is founded on another world, or something like that....... That would happen about 1000 years after this story, I think.'"
Sorry, but it's quite clear you're simply denying the link because you don't like it.
The quote is an aside, a musing about a potential link between two games. I doubt it was given that much thought beyond the writer establishing that he thought it was an interesting idea. I've never got why so many people got worked up over it, as there's very little weight behind it, it's not informed by any mythology contained within the games, so other than it being an interesting idea, it's much ado about nothing. The writer is taking the idea of the two Shinra's and coming up with a connection to them on the fly, and I think that's all there is to it. There's no grand plan to unite the X games with Final Fantasy VII.
"Different planet different rules" really? But okay, suppose it all takes place in a universe where the laws of physics differ from planet to planet...Mario007 already showed how you're wrong about the planets being linked, so your argument there is irrelevant.
It wasn't Nomura, it was Nojima, who is the actual writer. And there is nothing unworkable about the connection, they literally say they go to a different planet. Different planet, different rules. So that negates everything about the "established mythology."
There's no "after the fact" here. FFx-2 had deliberate storyline and dialogue indicating this plot point...hey, look at that:
And direct from the writer:
"Kazushige Nojima: '...After quitting the Gullwings, Shinra received enormous financial support from Rin, and began trying to use Vegnagun to siphon Mako Energy from the Farplane. But, he is unable to complete the system for utilizing this energy in his generation, and in the future, when traveling to distant planets becomes possible, the Shinra Company is founded on another world, or something like that....... That would happen about 1000 years after this story, I think.'"
Sorry, but it's quite clear you're simply denying the link because you don't like it.
If the Shinra company is a space-fairing corporation, why is its own space efforts so primitive? The lack of advanced space technology is a huge plotpoint in VII, and a major driving force for one of the arcs of the characters.
I'd also like to repeat that you've yet to provide in-game evidence for the link, by the way. Names and logos still don't actually support the theory in any solid manner. And again, you keep referring to out-of-work statements from the author.
Me liking any link is irrelevant. There are plenty of stories that do things I don't like - it doesn't mean I deny what happened. I'm denying the link because I'm yet to see any solid evidence it actually functions.
I'm aware of the timeline of events. Back then, seeing the theories was amusing, but I treated the 'links' with the amount of thought I treat them now - cool meta-links. Easter eggs, almost, as their use of tying the two game timelines together are tenuous and (thus far, unless someone can present evidence to the contrary) unworkable.
I've already acknowledged these discussions. I don't see them as strong enough evidence for a link. Odin and Jupiter occupying the same role as father-leader among gods does not make the two mythologies linked.
Again, intent is meaningless.
I'm going to skip out of this conversation now - it's going nowhere and a massive derailment. Further, you keep revisiting statements from the author when I have already expressed that I don't regard authorial intent to actually hold weight. Further still, you've presented 'evidence' which functions as nothing of the sort, merely meta-links. Maybe you can present solid in-work evidence of a link, but you've yet to do so to my satisfaction. You've also continually accused me of "denying because I don't like it", which is to no end frustrating and inaccurate.
Back to discussing the port's merits and our levels of hype.
You're just moving the goalposts now. A character named Shinra creating the company logo that gets used by Shin-Ra isn't an in-game link?
Next you'll say the in-game dialogue is too vague, despite the authors spelling it out later for anyone who didn't get it.
Femmeworth
Banned
Yeah, let's talk about how they are fucking up the cinematics. :\
PedroPanache
Member
Really? I've missed this. What exactly are they doing?
BibiMaghoo
Member
Femmeworth
Banned
PedroPanache
Member
Oh dear. Heaven forbid that we should have nasty black borders on either side of the screen, but, no, let's crop the shit out of it so we can fill the screen, rather than do the right thing and display them in 4:3.
Play it safe.
Play it on Vita
I would but I wanna play them in HD first. Gonna have to connect a headset to the TV for that part lol.
That's not too bad to me. I rather have that then black bars like GOW and DMC. Plus in all those examples they aren't cutting anything important.
Why would your gf remotely care about a few-minute-song in a video game?
RPGCrazied
Member
Yeah, signs are pointing its going to be a brief trailer on Monday. The blackout at PAX is about the same length as the trailer showing up on youtube. Afraid to say it, but that is the one we are going to probably get.
DR2K
Banned
That's a pretty big exaggeration for zooming in and removing (jarring) black borders. It would be a nice if they left an option in for purists that just have to see the sides being cropped, but that's what the internet if for.
Idk but she's gonna be bitching lol trust me.
Was wondering why the thread grew all of a sudden. Thought it was new info, but turns out it was just arguments over game legacy
I don't know. Sure I'd want it re-rendered ideally. But given a choice I think I'd prefer it cropped as long as nothing of importance was lost, over black bars on the side.
I don't know. Sure I'd want it re-rendered ideally. But given a choice I think I'd prefer it cropped as long as nothing of importance was lost, over black bars on the side.
I don't see any reason not to include it. I consider last mission as part of international.
I don't see why not when the PS Blogs mentioned the international version of both games and they won't release one version for the Japanese (the latest) and one for the Western audience (non-international). Would take too much time and money to release two different versions in the same year.
Only snag is that Last Mission is not totally dubbed. I do wonder if they'd invest the resources for that...
They probably do have the original CG files, otherwise this is going to look way worse since they'll have to upscale the scenes. They're clearly being rendered at a much higher resolution here. The reason they are probably cropping is because all the scenes were rigged and designed for a 4:3 aspect ratio to begin with. For the KH scenes someone mentioned that they could have been 16:9 to begin with, and were actually cropped for the original release. I dunno if it's true though.
I asked since in japan its called international+last mission when it was released and not just international.
And i read that the main game in international had english and japanese voices and subtitles but not in last mission, maybe they could remove it to not have to translate it.
But i really hope to have both games in international complete versions, in 60hz in Europe for the first time.
I hope they will put eternal calm too, so its a full Spira universe
And i read that the main game in international had english and japanese voices and subtitles but not in last mission, maybe they could remove it to not have to translate it.
But i really hope to have both games in international complete versions, in 60hz in Europe for the first time.
I hope they will put eternal calm too, so its a full Spira universe
The CG looks like it's being upscaled, but there's no artifacting beyond the image compression which matches the other screens, so they've gone back to uncompressed master videos to source the cropped ones for this. It's not going to look perfect, obviously, the FFXIII CG was incredible, for example, but it'll look much better than on PS2.
AuthenticM
Member
Well, Konami brought back the actors for the 360 version of Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3. Square needs to step its game up !
AuthenticM
Member
no.
345triangle
Member
i like the way this looks. it's technically unimpressive, sure, but they've just made the games look like how i remember them, rather than the far uglier truth. simple but effective.
i'm totally in for X-2 on vita.
i'm totally in for X-2 on vita.
AuthenticM
Member
This is the minimum companies have got to achieve I think. That is, making the HD game at least look like what we remember the original game looking like. And then there are companies which go the extra mile, such as 343 with Halo Anniversary.
- Status