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[Celine]

I don't mean to sell it short, but 4 years is not a particularly long time. It was recording breaking though, and an immense resurgence for Nintendo after about of decade of the N64-Gamecube slump, which highlights just how much they shit the bed on entering the next generation on both fronts.

I edited the previous post with this part to highlight the massive achievement Nintendo got in those 5 years:

What I mean is that , despite Nintendo got an operating income of 529 billion yen between 2001-2005 (very very good profits for a VG company, more than SCE in the comparable timespan), in the period between 2006-2010 the operating income boasted to more than three time that, at 1796 billion yen.
A gain simply unheard of in the videogame business and one I doubt a videogame company will replicate again.

EDIT:
The "resurgence" lasted an entire generation (a meaningful timespan in the VG business), sure Wii was abandoned after 2010 and DS was hit heavily by piracy in the latter years but the whole generation was a big win for Nintendo (and of course it was noteworthy only a fool would say otherwise).

Should we acclaim Iwata (or Nintendo more aptly) only based on that period?
Of course no but fuck ups are to be expected as fortunes are volatile in the business (and fuck ups happened even during the DS/Wii days...).
Nintendo will go through hard or lucky periods (as it did in the past) with or without Iwata.

 

[royalan]

You're living in a bizarro world where short-lived successes are noteworthy or deserving of praise.

If anything, the DS and Wii serve to show what a clown Iwata is -- he had more momentum to work with than Nintendo's ever had to usher in the next generation, and dropped the ball. Twice. He completely failed at building Nintendo's value as a brand, which is what matters.

Bingo.

It's not just that that 3DS and Wii U have under-performed (extremely so, in the Wii U's case); it's that Iwata had the perfect setup to NOT fail, and yet he did. Twice. This is almost MORE damning.

When Ken Kutaragi destroyed Sony's PS2 momentum with the PS3 he was kicked to the curb not even 6 months into the system's life, and Sony has been better off for it in almost every conceivable way. Yet Nintendo fans seem to want Nintendo to pull a RIM, and wait until it's too late to make necessary changes because they're still profitable now despite being locked out of the industry more and more by the day.

Sometimes I think the smartest thing Iwata ever did was make himself the visible face of Nintendo with Nintendo Direct and Iwata Asks. He's tied himself so intrinsically to the company that fans lash out at anybody criticizing him because it comes off as an attack of Nintendo itself.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I don't mean to sell it short, but 4 years is not a particularly long time. It was recording breaking though, and an immense resurgence for Nintendo after about of decade of the N64-Gamecube slump, which highlights just how much they shit the bed on entering the next generation on both fronts.

It's pretty incredible how badly they handled that transition - the Wii was pretty unceremoniously abandoned then they launch their new one with zero momentum and a sense that they got totally caught by surprise even having to release it. Bizarre.

 

[radioheadrule83]

To be fair to Iwata:

• He has had to contend with the same thing Sony have in the handheld space: a diminished market due to other competitive smart products. He has successfully found a pace and a niche for the 3DS, and overhauled the threat of Vita (for now).
• Wii U may not currently have interest, or particular strength in terms of traditional third party support, but it also presently doesn't have any future competition that has a userbase. Provided he can get the system moving by the end of the year, his system will still be millions ahead in that regard. Wii U will need time and games to find its place.
• You could probably make a pretty similarly robust case for things he has delivered that have and haven't been promised. In fact, if I have time, I might try and do just that myself. There are quite a few successful things Nintendo have given us under his reign that either weren't expected, or were things nobody was asking for. Improvements he's made to Nintendo that otherwise wouldn't have taken place. I think people forget how insular and aggressively stubborn Yamauchi could be. Iwata has had a lot to change, and I don't think it was ever going to change overnight.

Ultimately, I view the current situation as I would if I were following a football team manager with a good track record of success, but currently experiencing a blip during intense competition -- I think he needs to be given time. I actually think he was a bit too hasty in nailing his colours to the mast for this financial year, but I also believe he's probably set an achievable target if they make the right efficiencies and promotions for both systems.

 

[AzaK]

You're living in a bizarro world where short-lived successes are noteworthy or deserving of praise.

If anything, the DS and Wii serve to show what a clown Iwata is -- he had more momentum to work with than Nintendo's ever had to usher in the next generation, and dropped the ball. Twice. He completely failed at building Nintendo's value as a brand, which is what matters.

I wonder if both failures to capitalise were actually the same thing. That is the inability to counter the rise of phones, tablets and the casual gaming tidal wave that was perfect for those devices.

Nintendo took the same approach to DS with 3DS by making it a similar device and also tried to emulate the Blue Ocean appeal with Wii U - a console for all. However a lot of those DS and Wii customers seem to be happy with their phones, and those that might dabble in gaming outside that are generally not the regular purchasers.

I really do wonder if Wii Fit U will flop terribly and whether games like brain training and picross can have the appeal like they used to.

Iwata himself said DS and Wii were just at the right time and they were a bit lucky with them. Why he couldn't transition even modestly from one to the other is beyond me. They had years to prepare and billions of dollars to work with.

 

[nopenopenope]

.

 

[nopenopenope]

.

 

[The_Lump]

Well you called me a dick so...

You misread. I sarcastically called Iwata a dick for overseeing Nintendo's most successful home console and handheld.

 

[mclem]

Bingo.

It's not just that that 3DS and Wii U have under-performed (extremely so, in the Wii U's case); it's that Iwata had the perfect setup to NOT fail, and yet he did. Twice. This is almost MORE damning.

Amusingly, I'd argue that the opposite is also true.

Coming off the Gamecube, Nintendo wasn't in a good way. Firmly in third place on home consoles, and while they were comfortable in handhelds the PSP was looking highly likely to be a really major threat to their domination of that field. At *that* point, he had the perfect setup TO fail. And yet he succeeded. Twice.

It's an amusing dichotomy. The success doesn't overshadow the scale of the failure, but in turn, the failure shouldn't overshadow the scale of the success.

In short: Clearly Iwata's setting things up so he has the perfect setup to fail again, so he can in turn succeed beyond everyone's wildest dreams.

 

[Pociask]

Nintendo botched the transition between Wii and WiiU (inability to attract 3rd parties is a major culprit) but labelling the period between 2006-2010 as "short-lived success" is selling short how record breaking it really was.

What I mean is that , despite Nintendo got an operating income of 529 billion yen between 2001-2005 (more than SCE in the comparable timespan), in the period between 2006-2010 the operating income boasted to more than three time that, at 1796 billion yen.
A gain simply unheard of in the videogame business and one I doubt a videogame company will replicate again.

Note I don't think Iwata is the only responsible for Wii or DS (it's the whole company), not only that but I believe Nintendo benefited greatly in having the right product at the right time.

That's the whole point. If you're an investor, you don't invest in past successes - you buy a company based upon its future earning potential. Nintendo had some great years! No one disputes that. But they don't even seem to understand why they were successful - and they have proven incapable of following up with that success and continuing to grow their brand. Now with the Wii U, they've completely abandoned motion gaming - what brung 'em to the dance. Why? They made a console that's "HD ready" - but why, if it's not even in the same ballpark as its competitors? Wii Sports catapulted them to success on the Wii - they haven't even announced a proper follow up for the Wii U. Why? For several hardware releases in a row, they've apologized for and promised to fix software droughts - but once again, have failed to do so. Why?

Those are all black marks on where Nintendo is going in the future. So, again, congrats to them on their past successes. I hope some Nintendo employees were able to sell some shares when Nintendo peaked. But that doesn't mean squat for their ability to continue to compete globally in the handheld and console sphere at the same time (based upon recent events, though, they certainly have shown themselves capable of being a great handheld only company).

 

[mentalfloss]

Guys.. the site is called not enough shaders.. you should know where the emphasis is placed (what their stripes are) by that alone.

 

[freddy]

Guys.. the site is called not enough shaders.. you should know where the emphasis is placed (what their stripes are) by that alone.

Don't most of them post here anyway? Unless they've all been banned of course.

 

[OldAsUrSock]

Wait, people think the problem is with Nintendo's first party software? I mean, I can get problems with the third party issues, but on the Wii, DS, and 3DS so far Nintendo has had lots of first party content and its been some of their best. Seriously, I'm pretty sure they're making more games then Microsoft, and I think they might be making more then Sony

Except they are the same games all of the time.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Except they are the same games all of the time.

See: The Rest of the Industry

 

[The_Lump]

Guys.. the site is called not enough shaders.. you should know where the emphasis is placed (what their stripes are) by that alone.

Not read the article?

 

[The_Lump]

Except they are the same games all of the time.

I thought it was that they changed too much (eg, Metroid, Zelda)?? I can't keep up.

 

[Maxrunner]

Guys.. the site is called not enough shaders.. you should know where the emphasis is placed (what their stripes are) by that alone.

What does this mean???

 

[The Technomancer]

Except they are the same games all of the time.

Please show me the studios that are engaging in radical innovation between entries in their franchises.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I wonder if both failures to capitalise were actually the same thing. That is the inability to counter the rise of phones, tablets and the casual gaming tidal wave that was perfect for those devices.

And here I was told that I was alone in attributing the poor reception of the Wii U to things such as tablets. What a world.

 

[Somnid]

See: The Rest of the Industry

Please show me the studios that are engaging in radical innovation between entries in their franchises.

This doesn't matter, Nintendo shouldn't be held to the same mediocre standards as the rest of the industry.

But OldAsUrSock is still way off the mark. You can tell by the rest of this thread there is clear contradiction, if Nintendo was too focused on gimmicky non-traditional stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, and Brain Training then it can't possibly stand to reason that they are just making the same old. I would say neither perspective is accurate and is more likely just people trying to find ways to argue to something using heavy subjectivity passed off as fact rather than forming a conclusion from what exists.

 

[The_Lump]

This doesn't matter, Nintendo shouldn't be held to the same mediocre standards as the rest of the industry.

But OldAsUrSock is still way off the mark. You can tell by the rest of this thread there is clear contradiction, if Nintendo was too focused on gimmicky non-traditional stuff like Wii Sports, Nintendogs, Wii Fit, and Brain Training then it can't possibly stand to reason that they are just making the same old. I would say neither perspective is accurate and is more likely just people trying to find ways to argue to something using heavy subjectivity passed off as fact rather than forming a conclusion from what exists.

.

 

[Pociask]

Please show me the studios that are engaging in radical innovation between entries in their franchises.

Video game studios are in a no-win situation when it comes to sequels. There was a good article/thread about it a while ago - it's either "Not enough innovation!" or "How could you change the formula I love so much!"

Heck, I was about to post a different criticism of Nintendo, but realized it's much the same. I was going to say, Nintendo just fails to iterate on sequels quickly enough. My point was that Pikmin originally came out in 2001, the sequel in 2004, and the third now sometime in 2013. Failure to strike while the iron's hot, I'd say, and compare it say, something like Prince of Persia. That was a new (rebooted, anyway) franchise that got its first release in 2003, had a sequel in 2004, another sequel in 2005, a reboot in 2008, and a sequel to the first series in 2010. So comparing the two franchises, Nintendo gets out 3 games in 12 years, and Ubisoft gets out 5 games in 7 years (not counting the DS spin-off, or double-counting different console versions of the same title, as you easily could).

So, the criticism would be, the problem with Nintendo is they just don't know how to capitalize and quickly turn around on their franchises. But when they DO that, they also get criticized - see the NSMB series. So, I don't know. Does anyone want Nintendo to handle their big franchises the way, say, Activision does? Imagine Nintendo dedicated two studios to solely doing 3D Marios - a new 3D Mario every single year. How quickly would the magic die? Or would they just get bigger and better and more popular every year? Who knows?

 

[Juken]

Guys.. the site is called not enough shaders.. you should know where the emphasis is placed (what their stripes are) by that alone.

Not sure what you mean, but it's generally a very pro nintendo site from what I've read.

Not Enough Shaders NES

I think the Not Enough Shaders phrase is meant to be sarcastic / a parody of the rest of the industry's thinking.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

This doesn't matter, Nintendo shouldn't be held to the same mediocre standards as the rest of the industry.

Not that I don't agree wholeheartedly, but isn't the sentiment from several that they should become like the rest of the industry? That's what I'm getting from this thread. Iwata's a fuck-up because he didn't enter the arms race and took the company in its own direction. That's what I'm reading in the posts of those calling for Iwata's head.

The "artists shouldn't be businessmen" thing is the most fucking asinine argument I've ever heard. The only reason Iwata is half the leader he is its because he's a developer. He knows games. Does that always translate into blockbuster sales and wild financial success? Nope, that much is evident with the Wii U. As much as I love Iwata, he horribly mismanaged the launch of the Wii U (in regards to games, not hardware). But one of the reasons why you hear people parroting the demise of the industry every other day is because the art of games has become the business of games.

Games were not meant to be a business. Is profiting from games a bad thing? No. Does the revenue help create new games and ways to play? Yes. But the thing that developers will always have over suits and shrewd businessmen and businesswomen is that they understand the soul and heart of games. Iwata gets it.

Investors and analysts may not get it, but developers do. That's why I'm never fearful for the direction of Nintendo as a company under Iwata. They'll almost always be able to eek out a profit, and they'll always be focused on games and the dialogue between games, gamers, and game makers.

 

[mclem]

Guys.. the site is called not enough shaders.. you should know where the emphasis is placed (what their stripes are) by that alone.

I took that as a slightly tongue-in-cheek name. Do note that it shortens to NES.

 

[InsaneZero]

The current biggest problem with NSMB is that the standard gameplay design has been refined into a science and thus feels less creative. Yes, the platforming is astonishing and the level design is sublime, but they're based upon the same rules and restrictions that they've been stuck on for years. They can construct technically impressive levels because they've been working with the same scope of gameplay for long time now.

If you want people to stop criticizing 2D Mario, Nintendo has to destroy this set of rules like how SMB3 was completely different from SMB. They shouldn't aim to improve within the existing framework, they should aim to improve the framework itself. Or at the very least, take more risks on the design of the game.

 

[Tobor]

Sony are different though, gaming is not their raison d'être and they had to restructure - their corporate philosophy is different to Nintendo. Or do we require all companies to act the same as well as selling us the same product?

No, but any company run as poorly as Nintendo should be required to seek new leadership.

 

[Bronetta]

I just bought the Wii U ZombiU bundle for $330. This topic is making me seriously second-guess my purchase.

 

[Bronetta]

No, but any company run as poorly as Nintendo should be required to seek new leadership.

Really? How is it poorly run? 3DS is stomping Vita in the handheld space. Nintendo is poorly run because they've had a poor Wii U launch? Must I remind everyone that the PS3 was largely considered a joke until 2008-2009?

 

[Omegasquash]

I just bought the Wii U ZombiU bundle for $330. This topic is making me seriously second-guess my purchase.

I'm holding out for awhile...there are some items that look promising, but there would have to be a fair few more to get me onboard. Some are coming though.

 

[Juken]

Really? How is it poorly run? 3DS is stomping Vita in the handheld space. Nintendo is poorly run because they've had a poor Wii U launch? Must I remind everyone that the PS3 was largely considered a joke until 2008-2009?

Probably because their key financials have been going in the wrong direction for a while now and their latest product hasn't done very well so far.

And would you really argue that Sony wasn't being poorly run around the PS3 launch? Otherwise the PS3 comparison doesn't prove your point.

 

[JordanN]

"Lateral thinking of withered technology" philosophy existed long before Iwata became CEO. Gameboy says hi.

There's a misconception about this. Just because you're not using absolute cutting edge technology doesn't mean you can't be powerful.

You could say that's what PS4 is doing. Outside of the RAM, it's not going to surpass the best PC's.

There's worlds of difference of how powerful Wii was in 2006 vs Gamecube in 2001.

 

[TheSeks]

Goddamn, that whole page is ether.

"Please Understand."

Spoiler

But yes, apply ether directly to the failing CEO.

I just bought the Wii U ZombiU bundle for $330. This topic is making me seriously second-guess my purchase.

I'm still waiting for them to port that to the HD twins. Doesn't matter if it has "unique gameplay experiences" they could change those and basically have the game on a bigger install base.

 

[Pyrokai]

I just bought the Wii U ZombiU bundle for $330. This topic is making me seriously second-guess my purchase.

I don't think you'll regret it. Unless you hate all Nintendo games, I don't think anyone will regret it. Just expect--at the bare minimum--for the only games to get to be Nintendo games. Obviously, this is expecting the worst. There will naturally be third party games you'll want.

I think the d00med crowd is all premature in saying this is a failure, honestly. If it's a dud in two years, then yeah....it's a failure. It's 5 months old.

 

[commish]

Really? How is it poorly run? 3DS is stomping Vita in the handheld space. Nintendo is poorly run because they've had a poor Wii U launch? Must I remind everyone that the PS3 was largely considered a joke until 2008-2009?

You're about the only one who thinks that Nintendo is being run well nowadays. Nintendo seems to be going in a direction that is opposite of the rest of the industry and seems out of line with consumer desires. I said the same thing about Vita. I love my Nintendo systems, and my 3DS is my most played gaming device the last few months, but I don't think their approach is a sound one in 2013.

 

[Pyrokai]

You're about the only one who thinks that Nintendo is being run well nowadays. Nintendo seems to be going in a direction that is opposite of the rest of the industry and seems out of line with consumer desires. I said the same thing about Vita. I love my Nintendo systems, and my 3DS is my most played gaming device the last few months, but I don't think their approach is a sound one in 2013.

While I agree that they're making some bad decisions, I think they're doing everything right with the 3DS.

 

[AOC83]

I don't think you'll regret it. Unless you hate all Nintendo games, I don't think anyone will regret it. Just expect--at the bare minimum--for the only games to get to be Nintendo games. Obviously, this is expecting the worst. There will naturally be third party games you'll want.

I think the d00med crowd is all premature in saying this is a failure, honestly. If it's a dud in two years, then yeah....it's a failure. It's 5 months old.

Well that´s kind of the problem at this point. There are no Nintendo games.

 

[Taker666]

I just bought the Wii U ZombiU bundle for $330. This topic is making me seriously second-guess my purchase.

That's silly (although with the unrelenting negativity that some spread it's unsurprising). I have no doubt that when it comes down to it ...you're going to get as many great exclusives on Wii U as there were on the Wii,Gamecube or N64.

It's just multiformat ports that it'll miss out on (as per usual).

 

[Bronetta]

You're about the only one who thinks that Nintendo is being run well nowadays. Nintendo seems to be going in a direction that is opposite of the rest of the industry and seems out of line with consumer desires. I said the same thing about Vita. I love my Nintendo systems, and my 3DS is my most played gaming device the last few months, but I don't think their approach is a sound one in 2013.

I'm not saying Nintendo is being run well. The Wii U is starved for games. My point is that every console release has dry spells, give the Wii U at least some more time on the market.

Look at the 180 Sony pulled with the PS3 halfway into its life, at least give Nintendo a year to do that.

 

[SmokedMeat]

There *are* games with long legs on PS360 too, like CoD (or Fifa here in Europe) for example, and FPS are hardly lacking competition on those platforms.

Call of Duty is a mega monster seller that's the rare exception, not the norm. CoD probably sees hundreds of titles come and go on the top sellers list. To think Lego City Stories or a Monster Hunter console game will have anywhere near those "legs", or the "legs" of a Mario game is silly.

 

[Tobor]

Really? How is it poorly run? 3DS is stomping Vita in the handheld space. Nintendo is poorly run because they've had a poor Wii U launch? Must I remind everyone that the PS3 was largely considered a joke until 2008-2009?

Read the article in the OP, please.

 

[Pyrokai]

Well that´s kind of the problem at this point. There are no Nintendo games.

True, but it won't be that way forever. I think of it like this: if I look back at any single Nintendo platform from the past and pretend no third party games ever existed on it, it would have still been worth it just for Nintendo's own games. For me, anyway. Hell, looking at the announced Wii U games already has made it worth it for me. It'll just get better. Just sucks that third parties aren't on board. Maybe it'll help kindle relationships with smaller third parties that can grow.

Edit: I view a "Nitnendo game" to be any game published by Nintendo. Lego City and W101 fit my definition. Just wanted to say that.

 

[SolarPowered]

The Vita has been a self stomping machine for most of it's life.

True, but it won't be that way forever. I think of it like this: if I look back at any single Nintendo platform from the past and pretend no third party games ever existed on it, it would have still been worth it just for Nintendo's own games. For me, anyway. Hell, looking at the announced Wii U games already has made it worth it for me. It'll just get better. Just sucks that third parties aren't on board. Maybe it'll help kindle relationships with smaller third parties that can grow.

Edit: I view a "Nitnendo game" to be any game published by Nintendo. Lego City and W101 fit my definition. Just wanted to say that.

Sounds like you have a hard time looking at Nintendo from a perspective that isn't your own. This has to be especially true on the console front. I say this as someone who loved my N64, GC and enjoyed my Wii immensely in the first three years of it's life. It gets a bit barren sometimes on the third party front. It's looking worse than ever before, I think. Let's see what they pull out of their third party hat in the next two years.

 

[Bronetta]

Read the article in the OP, please.

A bunch of PR speak selectively carved from the past 10 years proves Nintendo is being run poorly? I could just look at their sales and releases to come up with that same conclusion.

 

[InsaneZero]

A bunch of PR speak selectively carved from the past 10 years proves Nintendo is being run poorly? I could just look at their sales and releases to come up with that conclusion.

It's not PR speak. It's Iwata addressing investors, laying out his strategy for the company and then continuously apologizing for his failures to meet the expectations that he established for the company. It's very indicative of the failure of management that he exhibited over his tenure.

 

[Pyrokai]

The Vita has been a self stomping machine for most of it's life.

Sounds like you have a hard time looking at Nintendo from a perspective that isn't your own. This has to be especially true on the console front. I say this as someone who loved my N64, GC and enjoyed my Wii immensely in the first three years of it's life. It gets a bit barren sometimes on the third party front. It's looking worse than ever before, I think. Let's see what they pull out of their third party hat in the next two years.

Maybe? I probably do have different tastes. I don't like big budget Western games at all, with some exceptions. I was able to enjoy the Wii throughout its entire life. I'm STILL playing games on it right now, actually. I have a huge backlog of games. I own about 60+ retail Wii games and a good amount of WiiWare and VC titles I play. Most of my gaming time is being taken up by my 3DS, Wii, and PS3 right now. I'd say an even split.

 

[Tobor]

A bunch of PR speak selectively carved from the past 10 years proves Nintendo is being run poorly? I could just look at their sales and releases to come up with that same conclusion.

There is more in the article than quotes. Its fairly comprehensive. Not to diminish the impact of the quotes, which are damning.

However, if you'd prefer sales figures, I understand. Whatever get's you to the obvious conclusion that Nintendo is being run poorly is fine by me.

 

[freenudemacusers]

A bunch of PR speak selectively carved from the past 10 years proves Nintendo is being run poorly? I could just look at their sales and releases to come up with that same conclusion.

The article also goes into detail on why the table-er, gamepad controller was a pointlessly expensive avenue to pursue. I get the impression a lot of people are just reading the OP based on some of the responses in this thread (not directed at you).

 

[Dremark]

He's one of the worst things to happen to Nintendo.

The droughts predate Iwata anyway. Ever since they ignored the needs of third party devs with the N64 they've had signifucant difficulty with keeping the games coming in with the exception of the GBA.

 

[RedSwirl]

Bingo.

It's not just that that 3DS and Wii U have under-performed (extremely so, in the Wii U's case); it's that Iwata had the perfect setup to NOT fail, and yet he did. Twice. This is almost MORE damning.

When Ken Kutaragi destroyed Sony's PS2 momentum with the PS3 he was kicked to the curb not even 6 months into the system's life, and Sony has been better off for it in almost every conceivable way. Yet Nintendo fans seem to want Nintendo to pull a RIM, and wait until it's too late to make necessary changes because they're still profitable now despite being locked out of the industry more and more by the day.

Sometimes I think the smartest thing Iwata ever did was make himself the visible face of Nintendo with Nintendo Direct and Iwata Asks. He's tied himself so intrinsically to the company that fans lash out at anybody criticizing him because it comes off as an attack of Nintendo itself.

Kutaragi wasn't the president of Sony. He was just the guy who designed the machine. Plus, he probably spent a bit too much time in PR when he probably should've been kept in R&D where he belonged.