I see the no-fun police have arrived. . . later than usual. Must've been a briefing.
Iwata's Broken Promises (NotEnoughShaders article)
- Thread starter eternalb
- Start date
I see the no-fun police have arrived. . . later than usual. Must've been a briefing.
DragonSworne
Banned
Being purple and coming with an attached handle is a gimmick.
TreasureHunterG
Banned
Thanks for the feedback. This "fun for all family" was an excuse from Miyamoto to target younger audience and made Nintendo restrictive toward games targeting older audiences. This repelled third-party support as well.
Miyamoto is (was?) a great developer, but as a general manager, he made bad decisions which had negative consequences for Nintendo.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
DragonSworne
Banned
Imagine those games if Nintendo didn't waste time and resources on vitality sensor, GBA connectivity, Wii speak, Wii wheel, Wii zaper, Wii board, etc
Nintendo for the last decade has dedicated too much time in making games that revolve around their hardware gimmicks instead of the merit of there design and ingenuity.
I think it's quite the oposite, Nintendo knows that without any incentive those 3rd parties will not support the platform, and it seems like they really don't care.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I would, I haven't seen Nintendo's current list of releases, sales numbers & metacritic scores
Alebrije
Member
Agree , with Miyamoto change Nintendo lost a great developer and got a mediocre manager.
Dave Meltzer
Banned
In the case of games like Skyward Sword, trying to justify the hardware gimmick makes them worse.
See also
KCRControl interfaces is what Nintendo does. It's their specialty. All of the innovations Nintendo has come up with over the years have to do with the control interface. Hell, they basically built the current control interface of console gaming.
Just look at Gunpei Yokoi and how he came into the company by envisioning the Game & Watch (the first modern implementation of the general orientation of today's controllers) as well as the Game Boy. The product that got his foot in the door at Nintendo was a toy -- the ultra hand.
*Comes back to the thread...
Wow, man did I hurt alot of feelings with my post on first page, Jesus H. Christ. I stand by it though.
Wow, man did I hurt alot of feelings with my post on first page, Jesus H. Christ. I stand by it though.
LOL
H_Prestige
Banned
Yeah, Nintendo is flooding the market with games.
DragonSworne
Banned
In the case of games like Skyward Sword, trying to justify the hardware gimmick makes them worse.
See also
Yep, one thing I'm thankful for is at least with the new gamepad, Zelda will abandon the awful motion controls. Thank you gamepad, thank you.
;_;
TheNatural
My Member!
Nintendo is up shit creek. They've gotta understand and feel the heat at this point with Wii U.
Wii U is almost the Wii's antithesis. Wii was low priced with a controller that takes the focus off for looking at the controller for casuals. Just wave your arms and hit a button. Wii U is expensive (compared to Wii) and puts the focus squarely on having to look at the controller - even for actions that were simple button presses before.
The fact it's now April and they've said nothing on the second quarter lineup and have almost complete silence these days is telling. They're in positions of the past past now, where they may have a big holiday, but it won't be enough. There's going to be constant huge gaps in the Wii U's lineup over the years.
Wii U is almost the Wii's antithesis. Wii was low priced with a controller that takes the focus off for looking at the controller for casuals. Just wave your arms and hit a button. Wii U is expensive (compared to Wii) and puts the focus squarely on having to look at the controller - even for actions that were simple button presses before.
The fact it's now April and they've said nothing on the second quarter lineup and have almost complete silence these days is telling. They're in positions of the past past now, where they may have a big holiday, but it won't be enough. There's going to be constant huge gaps in the Wii U's lineup over the years.
Iacobellis
Junior Member
I wouldn't be so sure about that. The 3DS was looking very bleak for almost all of 2011, and now we have new releases constantly.
Then he'll bring 2014, that there's nothing for 2014 on 3DS... Actually, they're feeding either 3DS or WiiU. I hope it won't look like that.
lol that's probably where all the wii u launch development went. To make sure the 3ds didn't die on the vine.
Thing is they didn't concentrate on anything. They didn't go "I know, let's go big into online". Or "let's secure the top hardcore exclusives" or "Let's go higher end tech". They just did what they usually did with a weird looking machine and nothing amazing to sell you on it.
I don't think is is far from the truth. The definitely, for one reason or another, decided to concentrate on 3DS during Wii U's launch and even up until now it's still about 3DS. Wii U is still an afterthought to them it seems which is rather annoying.
At this point, having experienced let down after let down for the last 2 years following the Wii U development and launch, I have no faith they are going to all of a sudden explode into the race and excite me. We'll hear about their usual games at E3 of course, but we'll probably get 1 maybe 2 before end of year (With the odd "lesser" title) and that'll be it. I do not believe they are holding back on third party announcements any more either.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
I always like to say that I never believe anything Nintendo says til it actually happens. Like the article says, they make a lot of empty promises of new functionality or features that never materialise, which then get swept under the rug or are dismissed with an apology. I also get the impression that for the most part Reggie's hands are tied and he's at the mercy of Nintendo Japan for any business decisions.
Not sure how I feel about Iwata - seems like a nice guy but I'm not gonna claim to be an expert on how to run a company
I can say I don't really like the direction he's taken Nintendo in general (generally shitty but expensive hardware, region locking, plastic peripherals everywhere).
I'm hoping - somewhat naively - there's a swing back to large-scale, immersive and graphically impressive flagship titles like on the Gamecube (Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Fzero GX were all incredible graphically, it's sad to see the fanbase repeating the 'graphics don't matter!" argument these days just because they went the cheapskate route with the Wii.) We'll see.
Not sure how I feel about Iwata - seems like a nice guy but I'm not gonna claim to be an expert on how to run a company
I can say I don't really like the direction he's taken Nintendo in general (generally shitty but expensive hardware, region locking, plastic peripherals everywhere). I'm hoping - somewhat naively - there's a swing back to large-scale, immersive and graphically impressive flagship titles like on the Gamecube (Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Fzero GX were all incredible graphically, it's sad to see the fanbase repeating the 'graphics don't matter!" argument these days just because they went the cheapskate route with the Wii.) We'll see.
I think it's unwilling from a fundamental philosophy point of view.
From a business standpoint, what Nintendo *needs*, right now, are dev teams that go in with the attitude of "We need to work on a game to release next October. Go!". What it *has* are dev teams that go in with the attitude of "Okay, we're working on the next iteration of Mario in 3D. Miyamoto, you take a group of folks into a side room and brainstorm ideas for a new major concept with it. When you come up with one, we'll allocate as much time as the idea needs. And then more if you decide it needs more".
The important thing to highlight, here, is that from an *artistic* standpoint - for my own personal preferences - I'd far rather have the latter. But the latter comes at a cost, and we're seeing that cost now. This might be down to Iwata in some respect; perhaps his history as a developer makes him more passionate about wanting to make the games *good* than necessarily making them *punctual*.
So, if we accept that this philosophy is pervasive throughout Nintendo... what do we take from that? Throwing more money at it might get more games, but it wouldn't get *punctual* games; they'd still stick to that philosophy of releasing their work when they're happy for it to be played, and so it still wouldn't match up to a rigid schedule.
Is it better to release average games on a punctual basis, or excellent games sporadically? From a business standpoint? From an artistic standpoint? From a brand identity standpoint?
Or, to put it another way: Would cracking the whip to ensure that a game is finished on an given deadline result in a better game?
I don't get people that the Wii U will get better because the 3DS suffered the same problem.
Handhelds don't exactly have the same market as consoles too. As much as I love the Vita, Nintendo owns the handheld market, they always have. Support for the DS was incredible and the 3DS is looking to follow that.
The Wii U however, is pretty far behind and most multiplatform games are not showing up on it. Even current gen ones that have no excuse not to, aren't showing up just because. That's what worries me about the Wii U, they can't afford to pull the same thing the Wii did if the casual games they're releasing are not selling.
Handhelds don't exactly have the same market as consoles too. As much as I love the Vita, Nintendo owns the handheld market, they always have. Support for the DS was incredible and the 3DS is looking to follow that.
The Wii U however, is pretty far behind and most multiplatform games are not showing up on it. Even current gen ones that have no excuse not to, aren't showing up just because. That's what worries me about the Wii U, they can't afford to pull the same thing the Wii did if the casual games they're releasing are not selling.
they didn't go far enough. honestly, there should have been new mindbending puzzles using motion controls, stuff that would shame zack and wiki, and they just tied controls to combat. it was rather annoying.
I thought I had a valid point, tbh. But lol it off if you don't wish to discuss
Each to their own.That's racist!
I don't think those games would have been any better if Nintendo allocated these resources to them. People in this forum talk about opportunity cost yet no one goes into detail how much better they would have been.
Yeah, I also wished they would do that. But at the very least the combat showed great promise.
Well you called me a dick so...I thought I had a valid point, tbh. But lol it off if you don't wish to discuss
I guess this argument depends on what the parameters for a good CEO are. If its hitting a homerun one time as far as making tons of cash goes sure hes great (I dont buy into him saving the company though, I think they would have been completely fine) . Im looking at the bigger picture.
Iwata started the culture at Nintendo of cheap underpowered hardware. He completely ruined the already shaky 3rd party relations, especially in the West. He was very successful with the Wii but to what end? That strategy has fooled Nintendo into thinking it can be replicated over and over but the casual market is fickle and has clearly moved on. They released a console that IMO would have been appealing in 2009 or 2010 at the latest if that. He is too Japan centric, he has promised better 3rd party relations for years and has never delivered. He should have stayed a developer, he was great at that.
He also changed Nintendo's mentality on software development.
Which was what pretty much killed Nintendo for me.
StAidan
Member
I was initially planning on ignoring this article, but ended up reading it after I saw that it had Sean Malstrom's recommendation.
It's a good article. Not saying anything new, but every last bit of it's true and the author consolidates a lot of good information in one place.
Bottom line, Nintendo created one of the most successful consoles in gaming history (Wii) and then abandoned the philosophy behind it completely, in favor of essentially remaking their biggest failure (GameCube).
It's a good article. Not saying anything new, but every last bit of it's true and the author consolidates a lot of good information in one place.
Bottom line, Nintendo created one of the most successful consoles in gaming history (Wii) and then abandoned the philosophy behind it completely, in favor of essentially remaking their biggest failure (GameCube).
What i find laughable is Nintendo's reliance on unique hardware to diffentiate their console from the competitions.
Nintendo time and time again tell the industry that hardware is just a means to an end for them, that they are primarily a software focused company. It's not about hardware to them, it's about the games. But every piece of hardware they've made in the past decade has relied not on its software to stand out, but its hardware. 3D, motion controls, tablet touch screen, dual screens, etc.
From a software persective Nintendo have remained almost stagnant for 15 years. No HD game development, inability to grasp yet alone embrace online services and multi player gaming, DLC is something apparently they just disocvered, no user created content like tracks for F Zero, Mario Kart, etc. What innovation or industry benchmark software have Nintendo created in the past decade? Nothing imho.
Zelda Skyward Sword for example is no fucking different from any other 3D Zelda sans its art style. Zelda TP, Majora's Mask, OoT, what's diffrent? Oh wait it had motion controls! That's it, motion controls. That's 15 years of evolution for Nintendo and even then the changes felt forced to me just so they could justify motion controls. I could have happily and would have prefered to play skyward sword on a standard traditional controller too. Save me having to resync the Wiimote every time it crapped out and lost is position, or having to edure playing the various mini games like the mine cart ride rotating the controller to lean rather then using the god dam fucking analouge stick that's sitting there unused. Mario Galaxy? Same again.
Nintendo imho are in for a world of hurt in coming years. Hopefully its the wake up call.
Nintendo time and time again tell the industry that hardware is just a means to an end for them, that they are primarily a software focused company. It's not about hardware to them, it's about the games. But every piece of hardware they've made in the past decade has relied not on its software to stand out, but its hardware. 3D, motion controls, tablet touch screen, dual screens, etc.
From a software persective Nintendo have remained almost stagnant for 15 years. No HD game development, inability to grasp yet alone embrace online services and multi player gaming, DLC is something apparently they just disocvered, no user created content like tracks for F Zero, Mario Kart, etc. What innovation or industry benchmark software have Nintendo created in the past decade? Nothing imho.
Zelda Skyward Sword for example is no fucking different from any other 3D Zelda sans its art style. Zelda TP, Majora's Mask, OoT, what's diffrent? Oh wait it had motion controls! That's it, motion controls. That's 15 years of evolution for Nintendo and even then the changes felt forced to me just so they could justify motion controls. I could have happily and would have prefered to play skyward sword on a standard traditional controller too. Save me having to resync the Wiimote every time it crapped out and lost is position, or having to edure playing the various mini games like the mine cart ride rotating the controller to lean rather then using the god dam fucking analouge stick that's sitting there unused. Mario Galaxy? Same again.
Nintendo imho are in for a world of hurt in coming years. Hopefully its the wake up call.
Hmm, you have NES's D-pad, Snes's shoulder buttons, N64's Analog stick + rumble pack + 3D environments, Gamecube's shoulder analog buttons /w digital click + GBA connectivity... All before Wii's motion controls or Wii U's second screen gaming, also without them doing these things we would of never gotten the DS which at this point in it's life was an utter failure and an experiment though it certainly had known games on the horizon.
I don't think the critisms are wrong, but it is more of a delay than anything, I'd say it's about 6months behind where it should be (the Wii U) as far as credit being given to Nintendo, 3DS did turn itself around and isn't getting credit for over 30million units sold so far + the biggest 3DS year yet ahead of it with SMT4, Mon Hun4 and PokemonX,Y not to mention animal crossing's world release and luigi's mansion 2 just now taking off. 3DS is comfortable for Nintendo to develop for and everyone now knows that Nintendo had a huge issue developing for unified shader architecture and HD graphics.
Nintendo are a software company and yes people buy Nintendo systems for the games alone. However Nintendo telling people to buy their system without a unique selling point would be hard even if the games carry their weight. I'm sure PS4 games are good enough to justify the systems purchase but they still have to invest in unique selling points. Not only to spur creativity but also interest from people who might not usually be interested in such systems or gaming all together.
Nintendo haven't embraced online functionality as much as they should have like you said but at the same time they have pushed a lot in terms of gameplay. Wii sports changed the way we played sports games and changed how we perceive controllers at least at that time. And the amount of people taking about how the Wii U fails that and how Nintendo would have been better off with a newer Wiimote proves that even today it's impact is relevant. I could go on.
As for points about Zelda, that's a discussion that would never be resolved. I think people get "keeping aspects of a created world closely knit and a part of the tradition of the series" as laziness. Now if you hated the controls that'd be fine but hating Zelda for always being the same is missing the point and leads me to believe Zelda isn't for you.
And even then this all has no relevancy to the demise of Nintendo or the resignation of Iwata if it was to happen.
Dear ikioi:
Super Mario Bros required the d-pad to play well. Mario 64 required the analog stick to play well. Wii Sports (a new IP) required the Wii Remote to play well.
By every metric, it was the most successful new IP in the 7th generation by leaps and bounds. Now you and I and many MANY others here may not think it's the bee's knees. But certainly everyone else does, because every 8th generation console will be launching with expensive proprietary hardware that allows for various kinds of motion control. In the box. All of these took away from other areas and avenues that could have been spent, and they are for a reason.
What many on GAF tend to forget, in our myopic views of the games industry, is that there is a world outside what "hardcore gamers" may like, and unless we can sell others our hobby it will continue to contract to the point where we face the prospect of "OUR games" being rather niche and fragmented. The higher price points, day 1 DLC, passes out the wazoo - all of these various monetizations are around for a reason (and it isn't always greed). Gaming will always be around (for example, many are playing them on Facebook, iDevices, etc) but selling boxes just to play games needs to appeal to a far greater demographic than the 16-30 male that most studios seem to be chasing if we wish to continue to do so. That the Wii U is failing at this at the moment is actually a bad thing in regards to that much larger demographic (and certainly opens the door for someone else to pursue them) - but it's just a side story to your post (which was demonizing Nintendo for attempting to find the "blue ocean" with their previous efforts and dismissing the successes they did have in defining that).
What i'm saying is i find it absolutely idiotic that a company that is so 'software' focused as Nintendo turns to unique hardware features to sell and differentiate their systems. You'd think they'd be more focused on developing innovative, creative, and leading software.
For example i'm refering to concepts like:
Developing a diverse and feature rich online user experience. Something they still seem incapable of achieving.
User user generated content. Who wouldn't love to build Mario Kar and F Zero tracks etc?
Social media and user communities. Miiverse is an attempt at this but its still got a long way to go.
Intergrating the internet in unique ways into their games. Internet isn't just all about multiplayer, forums, trolling, and lolcats. You can do some pretty dam awesome things with the internet even for single player games. Just have to think outside the square. Nintendo still seem to be learning about the internet, they just got to grips with DLC.
I'm a massive Zelda fan and still to this day love the traditional game play.
But you cannot tell me that using the Wiimotion controller wasn't forced down your throat in many areas of the game. Nintendo making you tilt the wiimote to lean left and right while your in a mine cart. Flying on your bird and flapping your wings by shaking the controller? Seriously what a pointless use of the controller. Steering your bird by manipulating the Wiimote? Why the fuck whould i want to do that when there's an analouge stick on the nunchuck that's perfect for 3D movement and sitting idle... Instead Nintendo want me to shake and rattle a controller around instead. Features like these don't enchance game play, they're forced measures to justify the Wiimote. Everything else the Wiimote was used for i happily could have lived without and played on a standard controller.
And you tell me if Mario Galaxy couldn't have been played just as competently on a traditional controller.
Nintendo basically made fuck all real good use of the Wiimote. 90% was crap, 5% forced, and the 5% that was good was hardly worth building an entire console for. That's my opinion.
Well aware, but less see if Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo can keep attracting that audience and prove their a sustainable business model. So far all we've seen is the Wii which by any stretch was a surprise hit and unbelievable success.
What i am trying to say Stevie is i think Nintendo's software side is lacking as much as hardware. I just dont think they've really been pushing themselves very much at all to innovate on the software level.
you can't just plug the motion controls into a game and have it work. most of what nintendo did with the Wii was in software, not hardware. the hardware was readily available for anyone to create at the time. it took so long for people to copy it (and do a half-assed copy at that) because of the software development involved. skyward sword itself is a huge accomplishment from a software perspective. that is tough stuff to create - it is not surprising that it took them 5 years.
Don't forget using the gyroscope for aiming instead of the IR sensor. >__>
not even gonna quote ikioi's woeful opinions on motion controls being forced in skyward sword and of it being unnecessary in other games. its that woeful. this is why we can't have nice things. imo I can't imagine playing skyward sword without the wm+. if anything, nintendo's only error was not going far enough pushing wm+. I recall aonuma saying the motion controls be here to stay after skyward sword and I really hope he sticks to his guns. wii u zelda and expanded wm+? fascinating.
I completely agree, but the controls has gotten a lot of hate for some reason. So maybe they wont. I thought they were the best thing about the game.
Was that bad ? I liked not having to point at the screen. I especially liked the way the bow worked.
What did they do with TP then?
It did not take 5 years. It took around three.
Straight from Miyamoto's mouth:
http://www.vg247.com/2011/11/17/miyamoto-skyward-swords-development-more-like-three-years/
Also we have to keep in mind that Nintendo tend to use quite small development teams comparative to the rest of the industry when developing similar size and complexity games. So this further increases the length of time the games take to make Zelda.
Zelda Skyward Sword offered nothing 'new' to the Zelda series. Just a very good faithful follow-up to the classic gameplay laid out and improved since OoT.
Each to their own but I personally wasn't found of motion controls for Zelda at all. I found they added very little value to the game, and over all were more obtrusive and frustrating.
Dealing with constant need to re-centre the controller's positioning.
Going into first person view to look or shoot and finding the camera keeps panning left or right because the controllers forgotten where it is again.
Having to use the Wiimote to control my Bird's 3D movement. Why the hell would you not use the analogue stick for this, it's so much more intuitive, easier, and precise.
Having to use the motion controls to lean while in in mine carts. Again what's the point of inventing the analogue stick again? Oh wait it was for 3D movement.
Having to be very careful about how I sat so I could ensure I had my right arm free and in a suitable position to swing etc. Couldn't just lay back and relax.
That was my experience with Zelda Skyward Sword. Loved the game over all, but if it had an option for classic controller etc I would have been all over it.
i wasn't aware that twilight princess was real motion controls. i thought it was just waggle. it says right in that article that it took them 5 years, the first two were just with experimentation. most likely due to motion controls which was exactly what i was talking about, lol.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Yeah. I stopped believing that too.
Once the new HD twins arrives then I feel any chance of decent 3rd party games will go out the window. We'll be left with the slow drip drip of first party games from Nintendo until the end of the console life.
At this point. I fully expect WiiU to sell less then Gamecube.
My launch Gamecube console is black.
Professor Beef
Banned
If he sticks to his guarantee, then I can at least stick to mine about not touching another Zelda game with motion controls.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Do we live in some bizarro world now where the DS and Wii didn't do incredibly well under Iwata's tenure?
ElectricKaibutsu
Member
I was a big fan of the motion controls in SS, but I agree with you. I'm ready for a normal Zelda again.
You're living in a bizarro world where short-lived successes are noteworthy or deserving of praise.
If anything, the DS and Wii serve to show what a clown Iwata is -- he had more momentum to work with than Nintendo's ever had to usher in the next generation, and dropped the ball. Twice. He completely failed at building Nintendo's value as a brand, which is what matters.
Nintendo botched the transition between Wii and WiiU (inability to attract 3rd parties is a major culprit) but labelling the period between 2006-2010 as "short-lived success" is selling short how record breaking it really was.
What I mean is that , despite Nintendo got an operating income of 529 billion yen between 2001-2005 (more than SCE in the comparable timespan), in the period between 2006-2010 the operating income boasted to more than three time that, at 1796 billion yen.
A gain simply unheard of in the videogame business and one I doubt a videogame company will replicate again.
Note I don't think Iwata is the only responsible for Wii or DS (it's the whole company), not only that but I believe Nintendo benefited greatly in having the right product at the right time.
I don't mean to sell it short, but 4 years is not a particularly long time. It was recording breaking though, and an immense resurgence for Nintendo after about of decade of the N64-Gamecube slump, which highlights just how much they shit the bed on entering the next generation on both fronts.
There *are* games with long legs on PS360 too, like CoD (or Fifa here in Europe) for example, and FPS are hardly lacking competition on those platforms.
"Lateral thinking of withered technology" philosophy existed long before Iwata became CEO. Gameboy says hi.
Care to explain the differences you noticed?
IR pointing was crucial in many levels in both Galaxy1 and 2 and basically impossible to do with dual analog due to faster responsiveness.