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[FordGTGuy]

Stick a band-aid onto the camera. Problem solved, you can stop being paranoid now.

"Your camera is currently blocked please unblock your camera and your console will be unlocked."

Lol just joking.

As long as it runs any Windows kernel ,there will be plenty of holes to exploit.

What in the hell are you talking about?

 

[GoofsterStud]

Stick a band-aid onto the camera. Problem solved, you can stop being paranoid now.

So now I get to hear them whine about not being able to play their Kinetic games. You know the only Xbox games they really enjoy.

Yeah problem solved alright.

+2 to headache

 

[Miles Quaritch]

It's that.

I knew they'd stop supporting XP/Vista, but why limit activations to one with a license transfer system? That was never the case in the past and it means I won't be able to install the program on my two laptops without having to jump through hoops. Fuckers.

All it takes is:
Hacker (Hope you weren't naked)
Government (Patriot Act) - They have spied on people they shouldn't have
(granted who cares, it's not like you are doing anything illegal)
Very lose TOS (for profit)

Let's not forget the children:
Pedophiles (Always online, always see you... Yeah this is what I want, some perv watching my kids play games): Talking to them trying to get them to do things when I'm not home.

No kid of mine will have access to a gaming console with a camera and internet required!

How would the hacker gain access to your hardware to allow them to watch you? The Government one requires complicity, doubt that will happen, it's too damaging for both when it becomes headline news.

How does a loose ToS allow someone to gain access to your hardware and watch you? Surely you'd see that instantly and refuse any ToS that has that a a requirement.

So there it is, I was wondering how long it would be until someone brought up Paedophiles.

 

[Fivefold]

All it takes is:
Hacker (Hope you weren't naked)
Government (Patriot Act) - They have spied on people they shouldn't have
(granted who cares, it's not like you are doing anything illegal)
Very lose TOS (for profit)

Let's not forget the children:
Pedophiles (Always online, always see you... Yeah this is what I want, some perv watching my kids play games): Talking to them trying to get them to do things when I'm not home.

No kid of mine will have access to a gaming console with a camera and internet required!

9/10, almost fell for it, but the weird emphasis on children gave it away.

 

[Alebrije]

If i get one, i'll definately be putting a bit of tape over the Kinect he he. Seriously though, alternative media have been talking about this stuff regarding cameras in stuff thats always online for years and not in a good way, i'm not saying i believe it but its rather worrying how much stuff they talk about that starts coming true a few years later!.

The same way how do you know your cell phone is not spying you? Any device with a camera could do it

 

[Takuya]

Thats because the attacks you mentioned was part of a battle between MS & Sony for the consumers trade.

This battle is consumer vs MS. Sony just need to sit it out and watch the sparks fly as this shit will spin itself.

Right now, MS can hardly start attacking the consumer so all they can do is to take the punishment. IF Sony get involved, then MS have something to aim at to try to deflect attention.

Sony and MS are both fighting for the same consumers, why is this any different? It's not Sony's problem if Microsoft can't fight back.

I knew they'd stop supporting XP/Vista, but why limit activations to one with a license transfer system? That was never the case in the past and it means I won't be able to install the program on my two laptops without having to jump through hoops. Fuckers.

It's always technically been one license = one computer, but they never really actively enforced it, until now.

 

[GoofsterStud]

How does a loose ToS allow someone to gain access to your hardware and watch you? Surely you'd see that instantly and refuse any ToS that has that a a requirement.

Do you really think they'd let you play games if you refuse their TOS? Seriously?

 

[RetroStu]

The same way how do you know your cell phone is not spying you? Everyone device with a camera could do it

Well they are according to them, a static camera in your living room surveying the whole room would be much worse.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

If i get one, i'll definately be putting a bit of tape over the Kinect he he. Seriously though, alternative media have been talking about this stuff regarding cameras in stuff thats always online for years and not in a good way, i'm not saying i believe it but its rather worrying how much stuff they talk about that starts coming true a few years later!.

It's a case of throw enough shit at the wall and eventually some will stick. After all, why stop there. Did you know the mics in mobile phones could be remotely activated? Someone could be listening to everything you say without you even realising it. Did you also know that GPS could be remotely activating allowing someone to track your every move?

 

[Fattony12000]

What the fuck.

Yup.

My mind is being blown right now.

The bit about the girl with the illness dying is super weird. That guy must have had a cocktail of emotions at that point.

Yuuup.

*jealous* I should've used a title when I posted that link.

Yuuuuuuuuuuup.

Wouldn't work on consoles. How would they get you to download, install the RAT program on a closed network like Xbox Live?

Kinect 2: Face 2 Face Connexgenerationtions

aw yeah backorifice, I remember that. Subseven, at my computer science study people were always trying to infect other people (and fail, cause it was computer science). I thought everyone would have some idea of it by now, but apparently not. A few years ago a guy in my country was arrested because he 'fixed' pretty girls' iphones. He told them that they needed moisture to heal so they should take their phones with them into the bathroom when they showered. My mind was conflicted over whether he was a sad perv or brilliant to get them to do it.

Nooooooooooooope.

 

[shinobi602]

Where did the rumors that adam was fired come from?

Here:

Update: 1:40pm

Sources are telling 4Player that Adam Orth is no longer working for Microsoft. Currently tracking this down further...

...we've confirmed this with one reliable source but not two, and Orth's linkedin has currently shown no movement. We're considering this a high possibility but it currently lacks enough verification for us to confirm at this time.

http://4playernetwork.com/blog/2013/04/adam-orth-article/

And another gaffer or 2 mentioning they had heard it as well, so, take that for what it is I guess.

 

[Takuya]

How does a loose ToS allow someone to gain access to your hardware and watch you? Surely you'd see that instantly and refuse any ToS that has that a a requirement.

By signing/agreeing to the console's ToS you'll be accepting anything they put it in, including allowing them to freely use all the data collected by the console/Kinect in any way they wish. Scanning your room constantly and having depth data, and 'decently accurate' 3D data of the objects in the immediate surrounding of the console (Kinect), etc.

 

[GayForMaster]

Here:



And another gaffer or 2 mentioning they had heard it as well, so, take that for what it is I guess.

Haha, shieet!

 

[Alebrije]

Well they are according to them, a static camera in your living room surveying the whole room would be much worse.

Yea I know, just imagine Kinetic could scan your room to see what stuff do you have and send that info to companies

 

[Miles Quaritch]

It's always technically been one license = one computer, but they never really actively enforced it, until now.

Fuck 'em. I'm seriously pissed off by this news. Fuck.

Do you really think they'd let you play games if you refuse their TOS? Seriously?

I didn't suggest they would. I said why would anyone accept a ToS that states they can remotely access the camera or allow third parties to do so. You have a choice, if you don't agree to the ToS, refuse. When the console refuses to play games, you take it back and demand a PS4.

By signing/agreeing to the console's ToS you'll be accepting anything they put it in, including allowing them to freely use all the data collected by the console/Kinect in any way they wish. Scanning your room constantly and having depth data, and 'decently accurate' 3D data of the objects in the immediate surrounding of the console (Kinect), etc.

Which is why you read any ToS you're asked to agree to and if you find something you don't agree with, you refuse. It's not like they hold a gun to your head and demand you agree, you're free to agree or refuse.

 

[awm8604]

I'm glad to see the privacy concerns being discussed.

It is a fact there have been numerous incidents where people have been spied on in their own homes through webcams. With the 4th amendment getting eroded away more and more all the time there's not much privacy left.

Just because I don't want someone spying on me doesn't mean I'm doing something illegal.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Fuck 'em. I'm seriously pissed off by this news. Fuck.



I didn't suggest they would. I said why would anyone accept a ToS that states they can remotely access the camera or allow third parties to do so. You have a choice, if you don't agree to the ToS, refuse. When the console refuses to play games, you take it back and demand a PS4.

Hope you can take it back when they change it 3 months later.



Good luck with that.

 

[Fivefold]

The same way how do you know your cell phone is not spying you? Any device with a camera could do it

Don't you know any camera in the world can be hacked and provide instant, high-quality video regardless of bandwidth, encryption protocols and other technical mumbo-jumbo no one cares?

You can also enhance random security camera images until you see the licence plate reflected on some random tiny object.

 

[bidguy]

It's always technically been one license = one computer, but they never really actively enforced it, until now.

I'm sorry if this offends people but what is wrong with that ? I mean you're buying a single license to use, what are you intending to do with it ? The only problem I see with this is that you can't use it on your laptop if it's already on your PC.

 

[Mavromatis]

Apologies, I meant to say closed platform. The point still stands somewhat, they wouldn't be able to access Xbox Live without passing through MS Live Server Platform and various other security protocols they'll have set up in between.

I'm not saying they can't be hacked, but the idea that someone could hack them, upload a program to all consoles and then activate that program remotely before MS realise what's happening is so infinitesimal that it's hardly worth worrying or losing any amount of sleep over.

DNS poisoning, routers with default password and lots of other points exist and many others will probably be found on the console itself. Let me quote myself:

Building a huge botnet using the exploits of the console, because there will be a exploit and someone will use it to build something malicious. I'm not saying Skynet but I might be implying it.

Seriously, that will be the worst botnet. You can't disable it since consoles wouldn't be accessing central server anymore, and you can't offline patch it because, there is no offline. Unless they put some offline option for that possibility but then they'll exploit that to make the whole thing offline capable.

I would be really disappointed that such botnet doesn't appear after the release of an always online console.

So imagine this scenario:
Somebody find a "offline" mod using an alternative server acting as Xbox Live servers. Another one uses that method to take your machine off the Xbox grid but on the new grid. He can install whatever update she/he wants and MS will never know since you aren't on their server anymore.
This will probably affect mostly those who want off the Xbox method to play pirated games and MS may not care about them, but it is still likely. In the end pirated software is how most of the trojan/virus and other malicious code spreads.

 

[Ding-Ding]

It's a case of throw enough shit at the wall and eventually some will stick. After all, why stop there. Did you know the mics in mobile phones could be remotely activated? Someone could be listening to everything you say without you even realising it. Did you also know that GPS could be remotely activating allowing someone to track your every move?

Everything you mentioned is possible and abused, so what makes you think that durango will be exempt from that.

Oh, you forgot to mention that none of them items have a camera that points right at you while at home.

 

[Goldmund]

Kinect espionage sounds too unbelievable to be true.

They'll collect data; probably none that could identify individual players (as in the Orwellian fantasy of Kinect constantly streaming its video feed which is then monitored and finally saved for future reference), just a bulk of raw data ("From assessing average daily playtime, mainly played titles, money spent on additional content, time spent on dashboard and exposed to advertisements in positions A, B and C alongside friends, player_1949458 is likely to be of consumer type B and will in future be targeted as such") that allows for a structural overview of the behavior of different types of consumers. It's not that they wouldn't want to know even more, anticipate even more, manipulate even more: it's just that not even Microsoft has the financial, computational and human resources to such a thing.

 

[Freshmaker]

Spying how? Data collecting is the norm across all devices, it's pretty much enshrined as a requirement in all ToS agreement for companies that have access to large volumes of data. Sony are no different in this regard.

Sony doesn't have a patent for it.

Also just because it's in a ToS doesn't mean it's legal or somehow morally acceptable.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Hope you can take it back when they change it 3 months later.



Good luck with that.

Fair point, but if that were to happen, you could always approach MS and demand they refund you or take action against them as you don't believe it's fair to have such a drastic change in ToS months down the line.

I'm sorry if this offends people but what is wrong with that ? I mean you're buying a single license to use, what are you intending to do with it ? The only problem I see with this is that you can't use it on your laptop if it's already on your PC.

Because some people have more than one laptop and would prefer to be able to access the program they paid for on both?

This means when I have to upgrade Office, I'll have to pay double if I want it both my work and home laptop. Money grubbing BS.

 

[Mavromatis]

Sony and MS are both fighting for the same consumers, why is this any different? It's not Sony's problem if Microsoft can't fight back.



It's always technically been one license = one computer, but they never really actively enforced it, until now.

Except Volume License. But yeah, I assume they are going easy on that since you at least actually bought one.

So how are you getting your unsigned malware code to run on the console, and how are you making it available at all, considering MS has full control over software distribution channels?

This is not a PC where some dumbass can just open kristinahendrickstits.jpeg.exe and get infected.

I'm not the one working on this, I'm the one telling you to dismissing it as impossible can bite us when we least expect. But don't underestimate the pirate's will to pirate it.

if hacking an alternate xboxlive server could be easily done, we'd have seen a few appear during the last 10 years.
And if they don't, and you connect to that unofficial network with an active camera, and you get observed by perverts around the world, I think you only have yourself to blam.

Can you tell the same to those who clicked free_something_you_want.exe on their PC? I know that computer literacy can be helpful in these issues, even on a console. But most people will just give their Xbox to some "expert" and pay some fee to get it "cracked". Also I'm not talking about hacking Xbox Live servers, nobody breaches security by trying to beat the strong point.
Also don't forget the new motivation added by the Always-On, nobody needed to create their own Xbox Live alternate server until now. And I hope they won't have to.

 

[Alx]

So imagine this scenario:
Somebody find a "offline" mod using an alternative server acting as Xbox Live servers. Another one uses that method to take your machine off the Xbox grid but on the new grid. He can install whatever update she/he wants and MS will never know since you aren't on their server anymore.
This will probably affect mostly those who want off the Xbox method to play pirated games and MS may not care about them, but it is still likely. In the end pirated software is how most of the trojan/virus and other malicious code spreads.

Sounds easier to say than to do... if hacking an alternate xboxlive server could be easily done, we'd have seen a few appear during the last 10 years.
Also if a hacked xboxlive is created, they could remove the kinect requirement for games. And if they don't, and you connect to that unofficial network with an active camera, and you get observed by perverts around the world, I think you only have yourself to blame.

Sony doesn't have a patent for it.

They probably have a few ones... anyway they already anounced last February how they will be collecting and analyzing data about your gaming habits, so that your console can download demos before you even know they're available.
Any service provider with individual profiles is collecting and analyzing data for consumer profiling. Facebook, Amazon, your local hypermarket, ... I'm sure even Evilore could provide stats of NeoGaf user locations, when they connect, the correlations between consoles declared (through XBL/PSN/Wii names/friend codes) and the average number of posts... the current society is focused on information, it's everywhere and everybody having access to it is analyzing it.

 

[RawRebel]

Forbes now has responded to the story.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/04/06/always-online-always-connected-would-be-a-terrible-business-decision-for-microsofts-next-generation-xbox/?partner=yahootix

 

[wildfire]

Having access to a user account doesn't give you control on any hardware linked to that account. You can probably access any info that is stored server-side (private information, messages, friends), retrieve digital content bought with that account... But how would you stream video from a camera with that info ?
In a similar situation, if I get the facebook login of someone else, I can access all his info stored on his account, but I can't start his video chat app, even if there is an official FB one (there is, right ?).

You didn't read any of the Superdae reports after he was arrested. He pointed out to MS that he had the power to shut down their servers because of the way it was configured when he hacked them. He didn't do that to brag but to point out a security flaw when he was still on decent terms with them.

 

[GoofsterStud]

Fair point, but if that were to happen, you could always approach MS and demand they refund you or take action against them as you don't believe it's fair to have such a drastic change in ToS months down the line.

Actually I don't. Companies have been getting away with this far to long in the PC realm. This is boarding what PC gamers avoid. The first one will have something in it saying that they have the right to change it in the future.

Once you accept the first one you have no recourse. This happened with Steam, ETC.

TOS will change, and you will have a paper weight if you don't accept. This is the reality of an always online required console.

 

[bidguy]

Forbes now has responded to the story.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/04/06/always-online-always-connected-would-be-a-terrible-business-decision-for-microsofts-next-generation-xbox/?partner=yahootix

Good. I hope all that backlash was enough to steer them away from that path (assuming they wanted to do it).

 

[Ding-Ding]

Sony and MS are both fighting for the same consumers, why is this any different? It's not Sony's problem if Microsoft can't fight back.

The difference is that if Sony get involved, I am sure there is one or two things MS could drop to divert attention away from them.

This though is one of those rare moments in life for Sony where they will win hearts & minds of gamers for doing absolutely nothing.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Forbes now has responded to the story.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/04/06/always-online-always-connected-would-be-a-terrible-business-decision-for-microsofts-next-generation-xbox/?partner=yahootix

Contributor.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

DNS poisoning, routers with default password and lots of other points exist and many others will probably be found on the console itself. Let me quote myself:

So imagine this scenario:
Somebody find a "offline" mod using an alternative server acting as Xbox Live servers. Another one uses that method to take your machine off the Xbox grid but on the new grid. He can install whatever update she/he wants and MS will never know since you aren't on their server anymore.
This will probably affect mostly those who want off the Xbox method to play pirated games and MS may not care about them, but it is still likely. In the end pirated software is how most of the trojan/virus and other malicious code spreads.

Seems unlikely. Although I don't know as much as this as I'd like to, so can't really continue the discussion to any great length or depth.

Everything you mentioned is possible and abused, so what makes you think that durango will be exempt from that.

Oh, you forgot to mention that none of them items have a camera that points right at you while at home.

Come on. When was the last time you heard of a mobile mic being remotely activated? GPS is a different beast in that most phones have it activated by default for services, etc, so while it can be remotely activated, it's only ever done by paranoid spouses.

Sony doesn't have a patent for it.

I was referring to data collection.

 

[Alebrije]

 

[Takuya]

The difference is that if Sony get involved, I am sure there is one or two things MS could drop to divert attention away from them.

This though is one of those rare moments in life for Sony where they will win hearts & minds of gamers for doing absolutely nothing.

And... the problem with that is...?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Actually I don't. Companies have been getting away with this far to long in the PC realm. This is boarding what PC gamers avoid. The first one will have something in it saying that they have the right to change it in the future.

Once you accept the first one you have no recourse. This happened with Steam, Origins, ETC.

TOS will change, and you will have a paper weight if you don't accept. This is the reality of an always online required console.

fair enough, I just don't believe the ToS would change to one that allows them to use Kinect to watch you or use Kinect to collect any significant data such as video data.

It's too far fetched.

 

[Valkyria]

Sony owns the best patent:

 

[RedNumberFive]

fair enough, I just don't believe the ToS would change to one that allows them to use Kinect to watch you or use Kinect to collect any significant data such as video data.

It's too far fetched.

It seems unreal, but this IS Microsoft we're talking about here.

 

[GoofsterStud]

fair enough, I just don't believe the ToS would change to one that allows them to use Kinect to watch you or use Kinect to collect any significant data such as video data.

It's too far fetched.

Your blind faith is also something I don't believe in.

*handshake*

 

[VXLbeast]

Fair point, but if that were to happen, you could always approach MS and demand they refund you or take action against them as you don't believe it's fair to have such a drastic change in ToS months down the line.



Because some people have more than one laptop and would prefer to be able to access the program they paid for on both?

This means when I have to upgrade Office, I'll have to pay double if I want it both my work and home laptop. Money grubbing BS.

Huh, odd. I guess I have always seen it as paying to "put windows on this computer" and not paying for access to the program in general.

 

[VXLbeast]

Sony owns the best patent:

lol, what the hell.

 

[GoofsterStud]

lol, what the hell.

F2P baby! Oh yeah!

 

[Roto13]

Forbes now has responded to the story.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/04/06/always-online-always-connected-would-be-a-terrible-business-decision-for-microsofts-next-generation-xbox/?partner=yahootix

Seriously, stop posting Forbes "contributors." They're just random blogs.

 

[Takuya]

fair enough, I just don't believe the ToS would change to one that allows them to use Kinect to watch you or use Kinect to collect any significant data such as video data.

It's too far fetched.

Do you remember their Illumiroom thing? It has to scan your room in order to work properly, so there will be a case where you have to accept that Kinect scans your room and is allowed to use that information, essentially, collect it.

 

[Fivefold]

DNS poisoning, routers with default password and lots of other points exist and many others will probably be found on the console itself. Let me quote myself:



So imagine this scenario:
Somebody find a "offline" mod using an alternative server acting as Xbox Live servers. Another one uses that method to take your machine off the Xbox grid but on the new grid. He can install whatever update she/he wants and MS will never know since you aren't on their server anymore.
This will probably affect mostly those who want off the Xbox method to play pirated games and MS may not care about them, but it is still likely. In the end pirated software is how most of the trojan/virus and other malicious code spreads.

This is like the plot of a bad straight to video technothriller from the 90s. Looking at the security features of the 360 and PS3, current market trends and the logical evolution of those systems something like this is pure fantasy.

Ignore for one matters of actually breaking the console encryption and making it run unsigned code. Malware is all about scale, what could ever justify the effort to infect a install base of at most, a couple million machines owned by cheap pirates?

 

[ShadowFox08]

I'm not sure if this has been posted... Pretty epic.

 

[Mavromatis]

Seems unlikely. Although I don't know as much as this as I'd like to, so can't really continue the discussion to any great length or depth.

When Ubisoft released Assassin's Creed with their new DRM, downloading some data from the server while you play, I thought that was it, pirates could never break it and DRM won the game. Yet they somehow acquired that data, spoofed the server and people played that game without DRM, or buying it.
What I'm trying to say, don't underestimate the guy who can't or won't buy it yet want it. They go to great lengths to break stuff. And this is why piracy isn't dying. But this another discussion so I'll stop it too.

This is like the plot of a bad straight to video technothriller from the 90s. Looking at the security features of the 360 and PS3, current market trends and the logical evolution of those systems something like this is pure fantasy.

Ignore for one matters of actually breaking the console encryption and making it run unsigned code. Malware is all about scale, what could ever justify the effort to infect a install base of at most, a couple million machines owned by cheap pirates?

What justifies the people trying to scam other people just to get the possibility of accessing their PC? Yet the internet is filled with those. Signed code is great but they break it and we all know it. They might sue the one who broke it, update the firmware to fix it or drop the users using it for "piracy" and "homebrews" but they never stop people from doing it. We know nothing about the new Xbox's security, they might have found the ultimate solution, the silver bullet to all piracy; but I doubt it.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I just saw this tweet from PlayStation Latin America:
https://twitter.com/playstation_la/status/320582174824857600

It says "We don't keep secrets from our gamers, Suscribe to our conversation about PS4" lol.

Oh really? Oh okay, Sony, let's see what the console looks....

Oh wait a minute.

 

[Kazerei]

I'm not sure if this has been posted... Pretty epic.

You realize this was made by a gaffer, right?

 

[blackflag]

I'm not sure if this has been posted... Pretty epic.

Are you being serious?